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fatherboxx)
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fizzy posted:The New Yorker should be boycotted for trafficking in insidiously pro-Russian propaganda. Not quite sure if serious, but it was a good read. I think sobering reads about supply limitations are still important as a way to drum up support, so I don't see this piece as particularly pro-Russian.
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May 23, 2023 05:22
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Does Emanuel Macron read the New Yorker? I could see it going either way...
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May 23, 2023 05:25
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Popete posted:Care to explain why you think that is pro-Russian propaganda instead of just throwing a wall of text at the thread. The last paragraph is incredibly dumb and designed to make Ukraine look bad. If a powerful enemy invaded the US and had a realistic chance of winning there is no chance the US Army would maintain its current deployment restrictions. Using the words "every American conflict since the Second World War" should make you delete the line if you look at the nature of these conflicts compared to a literal war of survival as a nation with no nukes to fall back on. It's Amnesty International all over again where people who genuinely believe the best outcome is for Ukraine to just stop fighting.
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May 23, 2023 05:44
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I think it serves to show the reader who might not be familiar with military contracts the difference in how Ukraine is operating in a state of all out war for survival versus a more typical super power invading some far away country on it's own terms. The situation in Ukraine is not ideal, there probably is a lack of training and equipment and breaking of previous draft restrictions but that's the nature of the war they are fighting, it's not an indictment on Ukraine per se.
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May 23, 2023 06:15
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There's unambiguously a shortage of training and equipment, that's the whole reason that Ukraine has been pleading with the world for training and equipment since day 1 and why so many countries are moving heaven and earth to make the maximum amount of resources available. Nor is western provided training on par with the kind of training that non-war-time recruits in a good army get where they spend often the better part of a year in training before ending up in their final units. It's not bad but there're hard limits to what can be accomplished in a couple of months. The dudes in that article are what Ukrainians are referring to when they say that every delay costs lives.
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May 23, 2023 06:51
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It also illustrates vividly how (and at what cost) Ukraine has been manning the Donbas front with mostly untrained troops while holding back their best forces for the counteroffensive.
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May 23, 2023 06:58
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CeeJee posted:The last paragraph is incredibly dumb and designed to make Ukraine look bad. If a powerful enemy invaded the US and had a realistic chance of winning there is no chance the US Army would maintain its current deployment restrictions. Yeah. In Finland, the maximum wartime penalty for desertion of over 4 days is 12 years. 3 days of being AWOL can land you several years of prison. There is nothing unprecedented about this. In world war 2, deserters were unceremoniously shot. If that was the law, I would get the criticism.
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May 23, 2023 07:10
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OddObserver posted:They're probably just being smug about dead Ukrainians being reported by a halfway credible publication. The New Yorker is an actual news organization. You may be confusing it with the New York Post which is the journalistic equivalent of used toilet paper. If you are actually thinking of the New Yorker and only think it is "halfway credible" then I imagine the list of "fully credible" publications you have in mind is a very, very short list.
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May 23, 2023 08:00
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Saladman posted:The New Yorker is an actual news organization. You may be confusing it with the New York Post which is the journalistic equivalent of used toilet paper. They can be credible and still be halfway credible, OddObserver isn't making a dig at the new yorker there
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May 23, 2023 08:18
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Mogelson is one of the best war journalists around. His piece on the Iraqis retaking Mosul from ISIS was like Chris Hedges stuff from the 90s
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May 23, 2023 08:24
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Failed Imagineer posted:Mogelson is one of the best war journalists around. His piece on the Iraqis retaking Mosul from ISIS was like Chris Hedges stuff from the 90s Tugs at collar hopefully not on the same trajectory. e: drat it, quote is not report! How tired am I to be loving these up? My apologies. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 09:24 on May 23, 2023 |
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May 23, 2023 08:43
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CeeJee posted:The last paragraph is incredibly dumb and designed to make Ukraine look bad. If a powerful enemy invaded the US and had a realistic chance of winning there is no chance the US Army would maintain its current deployment restrictions. If my country the US was invaded I literally wouldn’t fight. I would just keep my head down and try to make it better for me and my close ones as best as possible in a way that didn’t involve me making myself noticeable and being sent to the front lines. Like idk about you all but I don’t “love my country” it’s just the place I was happen to be born in. So yeah I think it’s pretty draconian and tucked up to approach a guy on the street and draft them into service on the spot, like the last paragraph alludes.
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May 23, 2023 08:57
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CeeJee posted:It's Amnesty International all over again where people who genuinely believe the best outcome is for Ukraine to just stop fighting. It took me some time to read the full thing, but I finally finished it. I have no idea what you're talking about? I thought it was an excellent piece, very pro Ukraine as a whole and in particular detailing the struggles of the soldier on the ground.
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May 23, 2023 08:59
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Boris Galerkin posted:If my country the US was invaded I literally wouldn’t fight. I would just keep my head down and try to make it better for me and my close ones as best as possible in a way that didn’t involve me making myself noticeable and being sent to the front lines. Like idk about you all but I don’t “love my country” it’s just the place I was happen to be born in. In an invasion scenario it's less about love of country and more about "I don't want my family to be raped and killed".
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May 23, 2023 09:06
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The Russian invasion of Ukraine is explicitly genocidal.
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May 23, 2023 09:07
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I prefer having all the plus sides of a civilised society without any minuses like "paying taxes" or "following laws" or "participating in defence against an invader". Is that too much to ask?
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May 23, 2023 09:14
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I’m perfectly fine with paying taxes and participating in society? Just don’t wanna get sent to die. Hth.
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May 23, 2023 09:20
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Nenonen posted:I prefer having all the plus sides of a civilised society without any minuses like "paying taxes" or "following laws" or "participating in defence against an invader". Is that too much to ask? The world and society, as it turns out, are very unwelcoming of libertarians
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May 23, 2023 09:22
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Boris Galerkin posted:I’m perfectly fine with paying taxes and participating in society? Just don’t wanna get sent to die. Hth. Indeed, other should did instead (followed by me when the "liberators" reach my town)
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May 23, 2023 09:32
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Nenonen posted:I prefer having all the plus sides of a civilised society without any minuses like "paying taxes" or "following laws" or "participating in defence against an invader". Is that too much to ask? fatherboxx posted:The world and society, as it turns out, are very unwelcoming of libertarians steinrokkan posted:Indeed, other should did instead (followed by me when the "liberators" reach my town) Should Ukrainian refugees (who by definition fled the war instead of staying to fight in Ukraine) be turned away at the border and repatriated back to Ukraine?
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May 23, 2023 09:45
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CeeJee posted:It's Amnesty International all over again where people who genuinely believe the best outcome is for Ukraine to just stop fighting. I know this isn't a popular thought around here, and I don't personally subscribe to it, but this is an entirely legitimate position one can hold in good faith.
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May 23, 2023 09:56
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With everything known about how Russia operates in occupied territories (and within its own borders), it's really not.
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May 23, 2023 09:58
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Yeah you'd have to be completely oblivious to the last... 60 years of history to assume that surrendering is a good option for Ukraine here. No amount of "good faith" excuses such naive view.
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May 23, 2023 10:00
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Comte de Saint-Germain posted:I know this isn't a popular thought around here, and I don't personally subscribe to it, but this is an entirely legitimate position one can hold in good faith. My problem with it is the people who push that seem to believe that Russia is invading for good reasons and won't actually harm the civilians. I'm sure there are people who don't believe that but it feels like a pattern for sure.
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May 23, 2023 10:01
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fizzy posted:Should Ukrainian refugees (who by definition fled the war instead of staying to fight in Ukraine) be turned away at the border and repatriated back to Ukraine? Ukraine does not allow men of draft age to leave country. At the same time, other countries are not interested in investigating if adult Ukrainian men registering as refugees bribed border guards and neither is Ukraine interested in doing the same on a grand scale (or pressure neighbours about it). Most of all, because it is counterproductive in a wartime situation of scarce resources to chase every dodger. Men who fled (if they return, of course) would have to live among people who served and thats on their conscience, the state would not need to do anything proactive to punish. fatherboxx fucked around with this message at 10:06 on May 23, 2023 |
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May 23, 2023 10:02
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orcane posted:With everything known about how Russia operates in occupied territories (and within its own borders), it's really not. What they do to occupied territories that resist them is a lot worse, so I think at the outset of the war it was a lot more reasonable for people to advocate a quick surrender and cessation of hostilities/quick russian victory. Like I said, I don't subscribe to this idea. My own thoughts on the matter I'll keep to myself, but I think that if you don't think a total ukrainian victory is possible, some sort of negotiated agreement would be the best outcome reasonably possible. (Not a total capitulation.) This is the position that most war-skeptics that I've heard take, and I think it's entirely fair-minded. I think there's some confusion here though, because the guy I responded to said "ukraine stop fighting" which I read as "sue for peace" rather than "abject surrender/russian occupation". I think the former is a fair position, the latter is not.
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May 23, 2023 10:04
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Kikas posted:Yeah you'd have to be completely oblivious to the last... 60 years of history to assume that surrendering is a good option for Ukraine here. No amount of "good faith" excuses such naive view. Their argument would be pointing to the current war crimes and bloodshed inflicted on Ukraine. Again, you don't have to personally subscribe to their position, and I do not, but I believe you can hold that position sincerely.
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May 23, 2023 10:04
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Comte de Saint-Germain posted:What they do to occupied territories that resist them is a lot worse, so I think at the outset of the war it was a lot more reasonable for people to advocate a quick surrender and cessation of hostilities/quick russian victory. Who doesn't want a negotiated agreement, other then the random insane person who think's Ukraine will march into Moscow of course this will end with a negotiated peace deal.
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May 23, 2023 10:08
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fatherboxx posted:Ukraine does not allow men of draft age to leave country. At the same time, other countries are not interested in investigating if adult Ukrainian men registering as refugees bribed border guards and neither is Ukraine interested in doing the same on a grand scale (or pressure neighbour s about it). Most of all, because it is counterproductive in a wartime situation of scarce resources to chase every dodger. Why men only, and not women? Do men possess a unique moral obligation to perform military service, that women do not posesss? Does one's manliness and/or value as a human being depend on their willingness to fight in a war? Incidentally, and completely unrelated to the present discussion: quote:
(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 23, 2023 10:09
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Comte de Saint-Germain posted:What they do to occupied territories that resist them is a lot worse, so I think at the outset of the war it was a lot more reasonable for people to advocate a quick surrender and cessation of hostilities/quick russian victory. It's still a nonsensical position. Pro-russians generally want all financial and military aid to Ukraine to end yesterday, which would lead to an unconditional surrender followed by an insurgency at best. Russia has shown zero interest in negotiations. Why would they be more likely to negotiate if a complete victory is made easier by stopping all supplies to Ukraine? What is there even to negotiate about? Should Zelensky stop being a nazi and Ukraine fully demilitarise despite being surrounded on three sides by a hostile Russia, while also surrendering territory that Russia annexed without ever having held? No pro-Ukrainian is demanding an unconditional surrender by Russia, they just want Russia to leave Ukraine.
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May 23, 2023 10:15
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fizzy posted:Why men only, and not women? Do men possess a unique moral obligation to perform military service, that women do not posesss? Does one's manliness and/or value as a human being depend on their willingness to fight in a war? Women are usually not subject to military draft. Feel free to claim that it is a patriarchial tradition if you are in a mood for more bad faith sophistry. I am not going to probe you because I am directly in discussion with you here but it would be good if you could own up to your words and say what you think instead of teeheee dancing around and dropping "incidental" Umberto Eco quotes to epically own a country in a struggle for its existence.
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May 23, 2023 10:16
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Comte de Saint-Germain posted:I know this isn't a popular thought around here, and I don't personally subscribe to it, but this is an entirely legitimate position one can hold in good faith. It would be pretty rational choice for many wars between countries. Border moves, dude on a banknote changes, you might need to learn a new language to deal with administration, and that's it. If Lithuania, Czechia and Slovakia invade and beat Poland then screw it, hopefully I end up in Slavic language part. But looking at how Russia acted in Chechnya, then Crimea and Lugansk/Donetsk then killcount would go into high dozens of thousands, to low hundreds of thousands. E: to address some points raised: Crimea rolled over without any resistance. People were mostly quiet and the resistance was peaceful and not organised. Still a bunch of people got disappeared. With zero oversight even being completely passive could get you death sentence for crime of "having a nice house" or "being in wrong place as FSB tries to achieve their monthly goals". alex314 fucked around with this message at 10:26 on May 23, 2023 |
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May 23, 2023 10:18
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You do not get to play "actually they are fascists" card against a nation that got invaded by it's militaristic neighbor and is currently, daily, getting bombed, it's cities razed to the ground and people genocided. Also it's because that's how their (and as a matter of fact, most European countires) laws about conscription and military service are written. We are still new to this whole crazy "equality" movement and nothing moves slower than army legislation.
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May 23, 2023 10:18
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Storkrasch posted:It's still a nonsensical position. Pro-russians generally want all financial and military aid to Ukraine to end yesterday, which would lead to an unconditional surrender followed by an insurgency at best. "Sue for peace" here means being willing to give up ukrainian territory but honestly I'm out of this conversation, I do not enjoy arguing for a position I don't hold I'll just say that people who argue that western support for ukraine should end or be tempered can do so without being bad faith pro-russian actors, and if you don't think that's the case fine, i dont care
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May 23, 2023 10:20
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And again, there is only one actor in this play that can say "okay the war is now over" and it's Russia, not Ukraine. Ukraine saying that is a political, national, cultural and literal suicide.
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May 23, 2023 10:21
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fizzy posted:Why men only, and not women? Do men possess a unique moral obligation to perform military service, that women do not posesss? Does one's manliness and/or value as a human being depend on their willingness to fight in a war? Can't believe every country that's ever had conscription is fascist, except Israel.
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May 23, 2023 10:23
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alex314 posted:It would be pretty rational choice for many wars between countries. Border moves, dude on a banknote changes, you might need to learn a new language to deal with administration, and that's it. If Lithuania, Czechia and Slovakia invade and beat Poland then screw it, hopefully I end up in Slavic language part. I mean this part of the nature of Boris Galerkin's response on the topic - it depends on who's invading. For instance if the UK got invaded by the EU because our violation of human rights of refugees, I'd nod sagely and sit back and practise my German. If Russia rolled up on the east coast I'd kick open the recruiting office door and ask if there's something I can do. On the other hand, there's people around me who would have the opposite responses to the two scenarios.
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May 23, 2023 10:24
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Comte de Saint-Germain posted:"Sue for peace" here means being willing to give up ukrainian territory That's not what Russia is demanding though, and it's not its stated reason for starting the war. Russia's position is that it won't even start negotiations unless Ukraine gives Russia whatever it wants first. Then they can negotiate about what else Ukraine can give them. Ukraine giving Russia land just means Russia will come back later and want more land, at which point Ukraine will be weaker because it has less land and less population. It's complete nonsense. People can hold whatever opinions they like, but those opinions can also be really dumb.
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May 23, 2023 10:26
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fatherboxx posted:Women are usually not subject to military draft. Feel free to claim that it is a patriarchial tradition if you are in a mood for more bad faith sophistry. Kikas posted:You do not get to play "actually they are fascists" card against a nation that got invaded by it's militaristic neighbor and is currently, daily, getting bombed, it's cities razed to the ground and people genocided. I'm not saying that Ukraine is a fascist country for drafting its citizens into the military. I'm saying that the views expressed by fatherboxx, Nenonen and steinrokkan - that it is morally wrong for a person to leave their country when it is being invaded and that they are morally obliged to stay and fight - is bordering on fascism. In particular, the remark posted by fatherboxx ("The world and society, as it turns out, are very unwelcoming of libertarians") and my initial query seeking clarification ("Should Ukrainian refugees (who by definition fled the war instead of staying to fight in Ukraine) be turned away at the border and repatriated back to Ukraine?") has nothing to do with whether draft-dodging is a breach of the law. It is about whether Ukrainians who leave the country are deserving of refugee status or should be viewed as unworthy. By way of summary of their school of thought and its ideological allies: quote:
fizzy fucked around with this message at 10:31 on May 23, 2023 |
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May 23, 2023 10:27
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Storkrasch posted:
They can be wrong and dumb without being bad faith pro-russian propoganda which was my point
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May 23, 2023 10:29
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