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Lostconfused posted:Population migration depends on migration laws. They're mainly there to prevent oppressed ethnic groups from fleeing your oppression. Otherwise migration is a pretty large mechanic to transfer population to underdeveloped low population provinces that contain valuable resources within your market. it's all true though, some of it might've gotten fixed in 1.3, but most of it hasn't at all commodities teleport instantaneously within a market, including transportation, service, and electricity. shipping and logistics essentially do not exist no matter the distance or scale - you can supply a million man army in southeast Asia as long as you have naval superiority and enough clippers. at the same time, if they get blockaded they'll 100% die over time even if it's 5,000 men on an unopposed front, and they're in a 16 million pop state in china - all of the native pops stay eating tho you can simply destroy all of the barracks not in your capitol before a revolution to prevent them from having any troops because you always keep your capitol when one starts if a country has its trade capitol cut off from access to the rest of the country, the rest of the country just starves to death if they don't have local food production & your GDP drops to 0 because market access is determined by access to your trade capitol - if this happens during a revolution or war you can't move it, you just die
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May 25, 2023 00:25
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Yeah I mentioned all of that before, but I was told that problem is too complicated to be solved with a computer.
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May 25, 2023 00:29
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FirstnameLastname posted:
sounds like a paradox game upon release alright it's the memory hole now but when Victoria 2 first came out the game stop being playable at 1870 as you would get every province spawning rebels non-stop and you don't have a way to prevent it
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May 25, 2023 00:32
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It's very misguided to think that long lists of weird stuff is like debris that accumulates into making a game bad. The errors in design are much more fundamental. Like, the "teleporting goods" stuff is in Vicky 1 and 2, just across the whole world instead of a national market. It neither makes the game good or bad. My main problem with Vicky 3 is that it's too tightly designed. There is so much signposting that the game is almost constantly giving the player instructions on how to play. The problem is not that this makes the game too easy, but the shallowness of Paradox's mechanics are being exposed, and instead of recreating the human inanity of history the games are about collecting modifiers while looking at a map. They've been going down this road in general, which has made me stray away from their games entirely.
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May 25, 2023 00:33
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honestly I think Victoria 1 with mods was always underrated, maybe it's just nostalgia but it was Vicky 1 + the most popular mods which produced the most historical sensible outcomes from my games I think my favorite game was when I made Russia a stable democracy by 1900 and with the Mensheviks/SR/Bolsheviks and the Kadets/Octoberists forming the left/right coalitions respectively taking turns running the government. Even the election result % looked plausible for a multi-party parliamentary system. I can't think of getting anywhere near a realistic looking political outcome in Vicky 2 Victoria 2 had plenty of problems with the economic model. The net result of which is the game is too easy since by midgame most countreis effectively has infinite money Typo has issued a correction as of 00:41 on May 25, 2023 |
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May 25, 2023 00:36
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It's not teleporting. The game is only looking for a connection from market center or capital province (which is the same thing) to any other province within the market. They could go back to the Europa Universalis 4 model and just partitioning the world off into smaller self contained markets and then linking them up like that I guess. Lostconfused has issued a correction as of 00:39 on May 25, 2023 |
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May 25, 2023 00:36
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Lostconfused posted:It's not teleporting. the EU4 trade model sucked because it's hardcoded for a all trade to flow to Europe why the gently caress can't I make Nanjing center of world trade instead of the English channel?
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May 25, 2023 00:40
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Typo posted:sounds like a paradox game upon release alright Vicky 2 rebels are hilarious, and part of why that game was fun even though it was objectively designed poorly and halfway abandoned in development. It was great when every country was teetering on collapse by the 1900s and losing a great war could send Germany into communist-fascist-arachnoliberal-reactionary convulsions. Nowadays every paradox game has a timer to 100 and they're like, "ohhh if you don't press this button the rebels will pop up! that's so scary!", so you press the button before it hits 100, or you muster a billion soldiers and twiddle your thumbs to smush them.
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May 25, 2023 00:41
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Lostconfused posted:It's not teleporting. It's teleporting in the sense that no good is actually pathing, the price is being determined and then anything selling/buying the good references that rather than trying to trace from output to input. They could likely jury-rig some system where there are fall-back market centers by continents or something simple like that. It wouldn't solve the main problem though, which is probably the paradox management being clueless scandi mba types
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May 25, 2023 00:44
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Typo posted:the EU4 trade model sucked because it's hardcoded for a all trade to flow to Europe It's mercantilism, your best option is to hoard all the locally produced goods and keep the foreigners out so that they don't steal them. Lostconfused has issued a correction as of 00:47 on May 25, 2023 |
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May 25, 2023 00:45
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:It's teleporting in the sense that no good is actually pathing, the price is being determined and then anything selling/buying the good references that rather than trying to trace from output to input. They're pathing between the market center/capitol and the province. Lostconfused has issued a correction as of 00:50 on May 25, 2023 |
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May 25, 2023 00:45
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Lostconfused posted:It's mercantilism, your best option is to hoard all the locally produced goods and keep the foreigners out so that they don't steal your goods. More like you have to conquer all the foreigners downstream so they can't suck trade away from you anymore. Lostconfused posted:They're pathing between the trade center and the province. That would be ridiculous. It's just checking what the market access number says, and that is based off some limited pathing that uses the naval nodes and coastal provinces.
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May 25, 2023 00:55
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Right.
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May 25, 2023 00:55
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Anyways I just bought Rule the Waves 3 after wasting a week on Ultimate Admiral: Dreadnought and it's kinda crazy how UA: D is basically the same game with worse design choices and a passable 3d engine
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May 25, 2023 01:01
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i think the historical accuracy & depth stuff can be fixed over time w/ patches/xpack/dlc but the completely dysfunctional warfare system, the total lack of peacetime military activity or purpose - your naval ships don't exist unless you have them deployed on a mission, you can't move where an admiral or general is headquartered, the military (and all the other IGs) never exhibit anything resembling agency, there's nothing that causes the caudillos or japanese/german military dictatorships or the ROC or any of it, everything is just very sterile feeling, and then when it's irrational/unrealistic on top of that it just feels stupid all of the nations themselves seem to have no meaningful feeling unique values, no historical friends or enemies develop and hardly exist to begin with. even as nationalism, fascism and socialism develop - you can become a total one party state-atheism communist dictatorship in say, Italy, and Austria, France, Britain, Germany, none of them give a gently caress lol. France goes fascist next to you? its all good, the Tsar and Queen Victoria got ur back comrade poo poo the mexico-texas war the game opens up with is caused by disputes over stuff that can't actually occur in the game like neighboring market-external immigration into loosely controlled border territories: that can't actually happen in the game its disappointing
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May 25, 2023 01:05
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Lostconfused posted:I think that's a joke? It's genuinely not. I know several Paradox developers and the C-level is absolutely mad. Apparently not mad enough to stop expansions cashing in on it, but mad internally.
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May 25, 2023 01:09
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Huh, that's crazy. Well, rich people gonna be rich people I guess.
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May 25, 2023 01:10
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Zeppelin Insanity posted:It's genuinely not. I know several Paradox developers and the C-level is absolutely mad. lmao
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May 25, 2023 01:13
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God I can't stop thinking about what a completely fundamental misunderstanding of everything Victoria 3 represents. I think a hell of a lot of it stems from it lacking the concept of extractive capital. Like, mechanically, a capitalist is a salaried position in a factory. There is no class of people hoarding wealth in the game. It's just not a thing. If you don't have that concept, how the gently caress do you model anything about that century? It's all nonsense based on a child's understanding of the world. Victoria 2 was dumb but it was fun. Victoria 3's developers are very very proud of themselves and think they solved it. The game is also just... not interesting to play. It plays itself. Moreso than most Paradox games. I wanted to like it, I really did. I enjoy Victoria 2 a lot even though it's dumb, but even so it is much more representative of the zeitgeist. There is a very valid argument to be made about how uncolonized provinces being uncoloured and un-described other than as geography is racist, and it is. You could say Victoria 3 actually naming those cultures is better. And on its own, it is. But Victoria 2 accurately represented how white people of the time perceived Africa, and what they did with it. Victoria 3 runs on unicorn fantasy logic of benevolent colonialism and that's in my opinion worse, because it's more insidious. In Victoria 2, colonialism is a great power competition for resources and manpower to feed the war machine. In Victoria 3 you do colonialism out of the goodness of your heart (because it costs you a lot more than you gain out of it) and you improve the material conditions of the colonised people. It's White Man's Burden simulator. Zeppelin Insanity has issued a correction as of 01:22 on May 25, 2023 |
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May 25, 2023 01:20
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It's just all kind of incomprehensible, having a passing knowledge of the Victorian British Army and Royal Navy. We're talking about 40% of the budget on cruisers on foreign stations, a third of each regiment in foreign garrisons, most military activity was peacetime and only understandable in terms of how far-flung it all was, the logistics, telegraph stations, coaling stations etc. required to support it all.
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May 25, 2023 01:22
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Everyone hoards wealth. it's just that the the player has too much control and is actually playing the role of the state and negotiating class interests. But the player is detached from the game world has no reason to give the capitalists everything they want. This is a problem with every paradox game where the player is never part of the world, but a force outside of it. I assume the real world might have been a better place if a benevolent godking had a hundred year plan going. Lostconfused has issued a correction as of 01:25 on May 25, 2023 |
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May 25, 2023 01:22
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Zeppelin Insanity posted:It's genuinely not. I know several Paradox developers and the C-level is absolutely mad. It's so very stupid because the landowners of V3 are rural landlords, a social class that liberals obliterated, just as any player does. Really goes to show how useless the mba demo is. Frosted Flake posted:It's just all kind of incomprehensible, having a passing knowledge of the Victorian British Army and Royal Navy. We're talking about 40% of the budget on cruisers on foreign stations, a third of each regiment in foreign garrisons, most military activity was peacetime and only understandable in terms of how far-flung it all was, the logistics, telegraph stations, coaling stations etc. required to support it all. There are almost no good navy games and Paradox has certainly never done naval/maritime stuff any service. Zeppelin Insanity posted:God I can't stop thinking about what a completely fundamental misunderstanding of everything Victoria 3 represents. Vic 2 capitalists didn't do anything either, they were almost purely positive and did the same thing even if you were communist lol. But the trick was that it FELT like you had to fight them at times, like when you're still industrializing, or they were closing your war industries. They were simply memorable even if they didn't do all that much, whereas in Vicky 3 every IG feels more like a passer-by than an actual faction of your country. You will see them if you want a certain policy, maybe, and then they fade away into the background. Well, except the landlords, who everybody has to destroy. But guess what, people love doing it! Vicky 3's colonialism is bizarre, because they have these mentions of racism but it barely seems to do anything. Nationalists or separatists also barely exist, and even when people get mad they are mostly forced into a HoI-esque civil war that doesn't make any sense in the context. Personally I think that the management got self-conscious about about edgy Vicky 2 memes, but idk Slim Jim Pickens has issued a correction as of 01:47 on May 25, 2023 |
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May 25, 2023 01:39
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Lostconfused posted:Everyone hoards wealth. Yeah that is kinda the irresolvable problem if you're trying to make things actually historical. (That said you are mostly right, capitalists do get most of their money from the profits of the buildings thet work in rather than a direct wage. They do end up reinvesting their money afaict, either in buying luxury goods or building new factories) Frosted Flake posted:It's just all kind of incomprehensible, having a passing knowledge of the Victorian British Army and Royal Navy. We're talking about 40% of the budget on cruisers on foreign stations, a third of each regiment in foreign garrisons, most military activity was peacetime and only understandable in terms of how far-flung it all was, the logistics, telegraph stations, coaling stations etc. required to support it all. Tbc this isn't quite the problem with the military budget. The game's simplified market model basically counts up all the production and all the needs for each good and then makes that a price modifier- so a market that sells 100 tools and buys 150 will have everyone pay 50% more over a base price for tools. (If this goes over 75% you start taking major penalties to efficiency). The problem is with military goods, it's just that your army requires, say, 2 units of small arms, 2 of muntions, and 1 of artillery every week, with increased needs during actual wars. But since there's no stockpiling you have to run unprofitable weapons factories in peacetime or face shortages during wartime. Then on top of that naval combat is basically treated exactly the same as land combat (except the battles are over like convoy raiding etc rather than holding land) so instead of having actual battleships you have a regiment of sailors that require an input of 1 "warship" per month or whatever. I think the core idea for the market simulation works, but land military is one of the cases where it struggles and the navy stuff is clearly halfassed
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May 25, 2023 01:42
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I dunno play some other countries I guess. Landlord/Feudal Nobles and Priests/Clergy are super annoying to deal with in any country that's backwards enough to still have serfdom or slavery. Well, I guess you'd also have to not abuse the corn laws event. Edit: The difference between land and naval combat is that navy has a super long "training time" modifier. So your naval losses take a long longer to replenish compared to army losses. Which is supposed to "simulate" the "long production time" of naval vessels. It's just another one of those abstractions that the game has to do because the developers haven't come up with a better idea yet. Lostconfused has issued a correction as of 01:49 on May 25, 2023 |
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May 25, 2023 01:46
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:There are almost no good navy games and Paradox has certainly never done naval/maritime stuff any service. Agreed but I will take a moment to say how I loving love Empire of the Sun (about the Pacific war). It has each card play being a specific operation and everyone goes back to base at the end, so it avoids the usual goofy feeling of navies just being armies on more boring terrain and makes it all about grabbing crucial bases to extend your range.
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May 25, 2023 01:50
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Lostconfused posted:I dunno play some other countries I guess. Clergy are wimps but the landlords are the exception to what I said. And guess what, people love destroying them! It's probably the fondest memory of the average V3 player.
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May 25, 2023 01:50
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It depends, clergy gives you access to education and health care laws that you might not have otherwise. Which give a sizeable power boost to clergy. Also god help you, or not help you as the case may be, if you get a monarch as a member of the clergy interest group. Edit: You have to play something like Russian Empire that has some built in buffs for clergy, mostly agrarian development where the clergy gets its population from, and also uneducated and poor so you actually want church schools. Lostconfused has issued a correction as of 01:55 on May 25, 2023 |
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May 25, 2023 01:52
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Frosted Flake posted:It's just all kind of incomprehensible, having a passing knowledge of the Victorian British Army and Royal Navy. We're talking about 40% of the budget on cruisers on foreign stations, a third of each regiment in foreign garrisons, most military activity was peacetime and only understandable in terms of how far-flung it all was, the logistics, telegraph stations, coaling stations etc. required to support it all. there's so much stuff they could've done to model the amount of material and people it took to bulld and sustain those enormous networks that allowed countries to reach out across the globe and smash anything on/near water they could've done it in an interesting way and made it the whole extra branch of territorial expansion outside of domestic industrial development and colonization, and made it tie into both of those + warfare, it would make US, Britain actually play differently from Prussia, Russia logistics only exist w/r/t water as clipper convoys to support naval invasions, there's no areas of strategic importance like fueling points, hardened ports/naval fortifications. ships are literally reskinned ground units with strength bars and w/e, there's no concept of fleet-in-being, no choke points, your ships don't exist at port, losses are like w/e just wait and it grows back, seapower altogether is totally devoid of anything interesting, no flavor no events, nothing i don't think they even have a logistics system for ships? there's no naval range for ships, having ports doesn't matter because you can't control where your ships are based and it also doesn't matter & you can only send them to your/enemy trade nodes and coasts so much wasted opportunity
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May 25, 2023 02:11
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The ships are based where you build naval bases. Works the same way as barracks. Probably not being able to transfer ships is a bit of a problem though.
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May 25, 2023 02:17
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Lostconfused posted:The ships are based where you build naval bases. Works the same way as barracks. Probably not being able to transfer ships is a bit of a problem though. that's what i mean, they could've had you build actual ships that had value the way they did irl, have peacetime deployment options for them w/ different effects that give you something to do with your massive navy so you remember it exists they could've implemented supply chains and stuff to give a reason to control important territory - there's no reason to take any land outside of its material wealth, there's no reason for places like Singapore to exist, no reason to control the panama/suez canals, no reason to control the Pacific islands or any ports in Africa Japan opens its markets up and can be trading the next day with everyone on the globe, as if it had always been there, at the same prices and level of access European great powers get France will let its industry starve because China is importing all its surplus wood and steel it's all riding off handwaved magic but then too detailed to not notice since the pop/industry consumption/output is so indepth and granular its like if hoi4 just let ground units attack ->move across oceans or something it just ignores reality so much and also doesn't create an enjoyable substitute, that it breaks the whole model for me and since the game is built on that model it kinda breaks the game ig i think they could fix it but it'll be a few years lol
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May 25, 2023 02:40
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All of that stuff is pretty simple and straight forward. They can easily add that in later updates. It's not a core game issue like everything being tied to a building or pathing of input/output goods. Edit: a computer controlled country collapsing because of trade isn't a problem with trade. It's a problem with Paradox. They keep making their games to complicated for their basic computer scripts to deal with. Also let's be honest, HoI armies do attack across oceans. They just have to move through all the ocean cells first. Lostconfused has issued a correction as of 02:50 on May 25, 2023 |
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May 25, 2023 02:44
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Anyways I just bought Rule the Waves 3 after wasting a week on Ultimate Admiral: Dreadnought and it's kinda crazy how UA: D is basically the same game with worse design choices and a passable 3d engine Yeah, RtW3 is a blast. In my game it's 1914, I'm playing Russia from an 1890 start, I won an early war against Spain due to an alliance with Great Britain, then won a war against Germany with their help, then a war against France with their help, all from super quick new wars and then Great Britain providing the numbers to blockade. After that alliance expired I won a war against Japan (that knocked out 4 old ironclad battleships in an opening surprise attack), but eventually defeated them, and I've been powerful enough since then to start winning wars against most on my own. I have the 3rd strongest navy and due to a couple tech sharing agreements at the time, I've maintained above average tech level though I am playing at 80% tech rate to reduce need to replace ships so frequently, which I suppose is a massive advantage for a country like Russia with poor education. I've also won 3 invasions in wars and managed to get a few colonies from events. My goals over the next decade are to get into a war with France, one with Spain, and one with either Italy or Germany
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May 25, 2023 05:31
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There’s a book about it I’ve been meaning to read, but in the mid-Victorian, when the Royal Navy was first transitioning to steam, they had not discovered coal veins in most of the world and had to ship it all from Britain. It’s one of the most significant logistical feats of all time. Establishing those coaling stations, and allowing the Royal Navy to steam anywhere in the world, was what made Britain rule the waves. Compare to the Russian fleet going to Tsushima, which had to stack bags of coal on every available space on the ships, or the German cruiser squadron in 1914 which had to raid British colliers, and even then wasn’t able to stay ahead of their pursuers.
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May 25, 2023 07:30
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And yet when I made posts about how Vicky 3 is broken just after release I got criticized for it.
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May 25, 2023 08:16
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Orange Devil posted:And yet when I made posts about how Vicky 3 is broken just after release I got criticized for it. Yeah because you were wrong.
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May 25, 2023 12:01
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May 25, 2023 19:49
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Looks like GMT has two new p500 games Another WW3 game https://www.gmtgames.com/p-1046-spearhead-the-balloon-goes-up-volume-i.aspx quote:A sudden Warsaw Pact attack disguised as a training exercise, the largest one ever seen by NATO intelligence. As a precaution, reserves in West Germany are mobilized and many NATO brigades are ordered to move out of garrison in accordance with Operational Plans. Suddenly, major Pact formations strike west across the Inner German Border with little to no warning. And a new Twilight Struggle spin off https://www.gmtgames.com/p-1044-twilight-struggle-south-asian-monsoon.aspx Though an lol at giving the US starting points in Tibet and India 
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May 25, 2023 20:27
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Seems like it would be unbalanced, the PRC always has the China card at the start of the round
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May 25, 2023 20:37
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KomradeX posted:Looks like GMT has two new p500 games They’ve been killing it. I’m excited for the Robin Hood game. Pendragon and the Saint Patrick game handled the middle ages so well, the art, the gameplay, everything. I have the Guelphs and Ghibbelines game, but not the time to play through. That series looks good too, and iirc already has Crecy, Agincourt and the War of the Roses planned? e: paging Tankbuster about India in the Cold War. I just think of the Indo-Pak conflicts, not the bigger picture. ee: I forgot they have a Weimar game in development, with liberal fecklessness as a mechanic. 
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May 25, 2023 20:38
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Frosted Flake posted:Some of the NTW mods occasionally pique my interest, La Montee de l'Empire and Napoleonic Total War III, both of which have year-by-year rosters with quite a bit of research. The problem is that the battles are limited in size to those 20 unit cards, 40 with mods, so the scale is all weird, and the campaign is rough compared to modern era TW. The AI really is not up to the task of fighting the Napoleonic Wars without guide rails, and that's really disappointing. NTWIII has online battles which look pretty nifty. The trick to getting cannons moving was pushing them with cavalry units which had higher mass. Once the cannon moved just a little in limbered position the pathfinding would recalculate and the gunners would limber it properly. Once I figured that out I kept a unit of dragoons nearby as sappers just making sure the guns worked.
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May 25, 2023 21:48
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