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If fallout 3 BoS was mid schism instead of post schism it would have probably been better received. Let lyons be doing his stuff for you to witness, not having done it years before. Instead of the good vs evil choice being helping the BoS or helping the enclave, change the story so you can either join Lyons pride and reform the BoS to use their tech for the good of man, or earn the right to be called paladin and join the less caring BoS to arm and armor yourself.
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May 28, 2023 10:34
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Youremother posted:I actually like the Lyons' Pride conceptually, and I think the Brotherhood can work as a "good guy" group, but Bethesda's godawful writing ruined any potential they had for interesting faction play. Having Lyons be an idealist willing to break away from the Brotherhood's extreme insularity in exchange for paternalistic tyranny is a good potential hook but they're just The Mandatory Good Guys written by people more invested in Fallout aesthetics than actual political commentary. KittyEmpress posted:If fallout 3 BoS was mid schism instead of post schism it would have probably been better received. Let lyons be doing his stuff for you to witness, not having done it years before. These are interesting ideas. You could even just make the "Outcast" faction bigger and more important. Make it a bigger ideological scrap between the two BOS factions and then drop the Enclave into the room and see how that changes things. Also, instead of just seeing the occasional roving patrol, make it that these factions control certain settlements, and maybe that can change when the Enclave comes in. The outcasts probably wouldn't bother controlling any settlements unless they just murdered all the raiders or whoever in them, but you can make Lyons morally ambiguous by having one or two settlements subjugated to their 'protection' even if they claim noble intentions. If they insisted on making them part of the critical path, then they needed to make their presence be felt. There are tons of ways that FO3's BOS' face-turn could have been made better, even considering that it was a cynical ploy to appeal to fans.
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May 28, 2023 12:13
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Why would the Outcasts let you join? It's explicitly composed of the BoS members who are xenophobic enough to rebel against their Elder.
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May 28, 2023 15:10
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NikkolasKing posted:This is something I've never quite understood. Fallout America is like IRL Red Scare America on steroids. As bad as things were in our real world, they were so much worse in Fallout. They actually were fascists, run by an oligarchy that survived to become the Enclave. Then the world ended. This is the backstory of Fallout, correct? As people have said, the ideals sure did exist even if it was never perfect. I guess I never thought of it before, but I don't know why Fallout, despite prewar America being super-50s and fascist, doesn't have any remnants of segregation. I know that they had the idea that most racial stuff would've just been forgotten postwar, but there's nobody in computer logs who talk about it. There's no weird extra bathrooms in ruined buildings.
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May 28, 2023 15:19
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Byzantine posted:Why would the Outcasts let you join? It's explicitly composed of the BoS members who are xenophobic enough to rebel against their Elder. They kinda already do in Fallout 3, to be completely honest with you. Once you give them enough trading items, they treat you as part of their faction mechanically and have new lines.
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May 28, 2023 16:44
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Rappaport posted:Who doesn't like someone who pads their h-index with self-quotations? Although I'm afraid this time around you might be barking up a faulty tree. Whatever you think you’re correcting in my post isn’t there.
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May 28, 2023 17:24
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Discendo Vox posted:Whatever you think you’re correcting in my post isn’t there. Let's go through it then. In Fallout 1, the Brotherhood isn't really portrayed as decaying, given that they are holders of a massive arsenal of guns. You can even talk them into throwing some bodies at Lou Tenant! The NCR explicitly did not exist in Fallout 1, and the quest to save Tandi was a pre-cursor to that. You also fail to specify how the Brotherhood, in Fallout 1, stopped teaching history.
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May 28, 2023 17:30
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I mean the faction they really should of explored more is the talking death claws faction. I don't care if they all died bring back talking death claws!
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May 28, 2023 17:40
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First of all, agreed But on a  note, would you feel the scientists responsible should have gotten their day in court? It's not like they were...Oh. Well.
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May 28, 2023 17:42
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The talking deathclaws are all perfectly fine, i don't care about the fake news in the ending slides!
steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 17:54 on May 28, 2023 |
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May 28, 2023 17:44
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steinrokkan posted:The talking death laws are all perfectly fine, i don't care about the fake news in the ending slides! I mean. The Followers came back. We have precedent.
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May 28, 2023 17:54
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Rappaport posted:The NCR explicitly did not exist in Fallout 1, and the quest to save Tandi was a pre-cursor to that. Difference without distinction. Next you'll be telling me that the Great Khans are a brand new faction created for New Vegas, because 2 had the New Khans and 1 had the Khans.
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May 28, 2023 17:57
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oh jay posted:Difference without distinction. Next you'll be telling me that the Great Khans are a brand new faction created for New Vegas, because 2 had the New Khans and 1 had the Khans. I like the cut of your jib. Isn't the plot of Tandi and Fallout 1 that you blow the brains out of a Khan?
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May 28, 2023 18:01
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Vault Dweller literally killed all of them in Fallout 1 except for the leader's son, who recruited enough dudes to have a second Khans gang going in Fallout 2
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May 28, 2023 18:18
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Okay, McNamara is still in charge. The lockdown is ended. Veronica is thoroughly disillusioned by the Brotherhood of Steel considering a troop of paladins not only tried to kill her, but also massacred the Followers of the Apocalypse because they thought she was sharing her knowledge with them. And I've got a power armor.
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May 28, 2023 19:42
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DeathChicken posted:Vault Dweller literally killed all of them in Fallout 1 except for the leader's son, who recruited enough dudes to have a second Khans gang going in Fallout 2
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May 28, 2023 20:24
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The tribal backstories in the base game of NV are by far the weirdest part of the whole game. New Vegas itself has only been up and running for like ten years or whatever, each casino is its own tribe of weirdos that just adopted new customs and immediately purged themselves of their original identities (except the cannibals and only that one thing), and the Great Khans are their own unique culture, which exists entirely of "runs drugs" and "are raiders" (but not like all the other raider groups). The first thing feels like it should have been like a century ago, but House makes it explicit that he hauls rear end to get things going just in time to say hi to the NCR making it there and is otherwise milling around spending all his time looking for the chip and otherwise not really giving a poo poo. The second thing's just dumb.
RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 20:35 on May 28, 2023 |
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May 28, 2023 20:32
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I always thought that it would have made more sense for the main New Vegas city residents to mostly be from Vault 21. House could have split them all up into the three casino factions for some reason of his own and played them against each other so they wouldn't start thinking they could run the place without him. It could also help explain Freeside and why there are some non shiny new elements in New Vegas itself; when House did all this he had to run the people who had been occupying the casinos out using Securitrons so he could place his factions where he wanted them.
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May 28, 2023 20:38
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I mean honestly ten years seems a bit short, but still pretty plausible. As like violent mobsters running casinos is a thing that has happened quite a bit in real life, and hey if you don't murder and kill the guests and act pretty polite then you can live a life of luxury is a pretty big carrot to get people in line. Like they have some of the best living we've seen in the wasteland and I can imagine if any of there members got to much out of line the tribes probably would of taken care of the problem themselves to not screw everything up. People are pretty adaptable, and I'm assuming house would of done at least some recon to make sure he wasn't recruiting tribes that were just full of chem addicts or what not.
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May 28, 2023 20:43
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NorgLyle posted:I always thought that it would have made more sense for the main New Vegas city residents to mostly be from Vault 21. House could have split them all up into the three casino factions for some reason of his own and played them against each other so they wouldn't start thinking they could run the place without him. It could also help explain Freeside and why there are some non shiny new elements in New Vegas itself; when House did all this he had to run the people who had been occupying the casinos out using Securitrons so he could place his factions where he wanted them. That's such a better explanation to use it's amazing they didn't just do it lol.
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May 28, 2023 20:43
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I thought most of the residents of the Mojave in general came from survivors who were in Las Vegas when House saved (most of) the city with his defenses. Although presumably they went through a really nasty collapse right afterwards when they were left in a desert city without the economy that previously supported it. I think it made some kind of sense to look at the Great Khans from the perspective of being "a society" that had steadily been ground down and chased to the fringes of the NCR, since at the time of New Vegas they've existed for well over a century. They have some kind of history. There's generations of people born into the Khans, and that's the only life they know. Maybe they're a bunch of bastards who survive by hurting others, but they still have women and children, they have a lot of noncombatants involved in persisting as a society. Like it or not, they have civilians, they have culture. It's just that the complexity involved in considering the Khans like that is undercut by the fact that the Vipers, Jackals, and Scorpions are all still randomly hostile cartoonishly evil raiders floating around in the void without any civilian ties. The whole native american allegory is an interesting thing because in general most players don't respect the uniqueness or cultural value of these groups that we know were all descended from plain ol' modern day people a couple hundred years back. We know the Khans did a bunch of killin' and stealin' to get where they are now, but that's not very different from what a lot of pop culture opinion of native americans used to be, which while extremely exaggerated isn't entirely unfounded; violence wasn't always one-sided even if in the end one side clearly did more violence in total in the end. I don't think the game goes all that deep into considering the whole thing, but it is interesting.
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May 28, 2023 21:52
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I started Brotherhood Of Steel and the ghoul you can play as runs like Naruto.
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May 28, 2023 22:11
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Rappaport posted:Let's go through it then. In Fallout 1, the Brotherhood isn't really portrayed as decaying, given that they are holders of a massive arsenal of guns. You can even talk them into throwing some bodies at Lou Tenant! When I say "decaying", I don't mean in terms of power. In Fallout 1, the Brotherhood specifically have already lost touch with their original purpose and background, to such an extent that their elder, the grandson of the founder, doesn't know where the Brotherhood came from, and scribes new to the order don't know who Roger Maxson is. Again, the Brotherhood having this trait isn't some big shock, it's explicitly based on a canticle for leibowitz. The decay of ideology, schisms, and the circularity of the abuse of knowledge are themes in that text.
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May 28, 2023 22:12
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The trick of the new vegas tribes is that they're much closer to their original cultures than their Mr. House-supplied clothing and mannerisms would suggest. The White Gloves are two seconds away from regressing to cannibalism, the Omertas are downright homicidal, and the Chairmen's swanky veneer drops the minute that they start talking about their rivals.
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May 28, 2023 22:14
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Discendo Vox posted:When I say "decaying", I don't mean in terms of power. In Fallout 1, the Brotherhood specifically have already lost touch with their original purpose and background, to such an extent that their elder, the grandson of the founder, doesn't know where the Brotherhood came from, and scribes new to the order don't know who Roger Maxson is. Again, the Brotherhood having this trait isn't some big shock, it's explicitly based on a canticle for leibowitz. The decay of ideology, schisms, and the circularity of the abuse of knowledge are themes in that text. Okay! Now we are getting into places, as the saying goes! Even if, as you point out, the Brotherhood has "lost touch", we still have Vree, who very much is an "idle academician" in a Wasteland that is horrid and terrifying. And you're sort of making the case for Master, since the super mutants were super, and Marcus tells us that the "juices" could flow again. The game under-cuts the powerful ending of Fallout 1. And no one liked the Children anyway.
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May 28, 2023 23:37
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Rappaport posted:Okay! Now we are getting into places, as the saying goes! your argument is not coherent enough to let you post from a position of strength
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May 29, 2023 00:12
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Lt. Danger posted:your argument is not coherent enough to let you post from a position of strength Okay. But Vree does enable an ending condition to Fallout 1, yes?
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May 29, 2023 00:19
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RBA Starblade posted:That's such a better explanation to use it's amazing they didn't just do it lol. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that
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May 29, 2023 00:31
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Rappaport posted:Okay. But Vree does enable an ending condition to Fallout 1, yes? Lt. Danger posted:your argument is not coherent enough to let you post from a position of strength
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May 29, 2023 00:32
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Btw, if you're not following Tim Cain's youtube channel he's still posting interesting stuff daily. 2 days ago he revealed that he left Fallout 2 because Brian Fargo stiffed him out of a bonus as punishment because there was a bad bug that took ages to get resolved and Cain refused to say which programmer's fault it was. 1 day ago, to balance it out, he revealed that the "Brian Fargo presents" in the intro was actually added by the team to acknowledge his contributions and Fargo himself wasn't a big fan of it. Today he's got an hour long chat with Leonard Boyarsky that I'm going to get stuck into as soon as I have an hour spare: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Egh2p8ajb3w
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May 29, 2023 00:38
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Rappaport posted:Okay! Now we are getting into places, as the saying goes! I can't even tell what you're talking about here. I'm saying something pretty specific about the basis for the Brotherhood of Steel and how they're depicted. I'm not saying something broader about other factions.
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May 29, 2023 09:18
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Discendo Vox posted:I can't even tell what you're talking about here. I'm saying something pretty specific about the basis for the Brotherhood of Steel and how they're depicted. I'm not saying something broader about other factions. Does, or does not, the original text of Fallout 1, include Vree? Does she, or does she not, provide the player with evidence that makes Master commit suicide? The Brotherhood, in the original text, performs research, do they not?
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May 29, 2023 12:42
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what the gently caress are you even trying to say
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May 29, 2023 13:06
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Reading this thread makes me wish for nuclear winter
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May 29, 2023 13:25
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That I disagree with the ideation of a theme being present where the Brotherhood doesn't comprehend the scientific method, when the game tells us explicitly it does? I'm sorry for making GBS threads up this thread, we can all agree to agree with the professor over there.
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May 29, 2023 13:27
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If this is your way to dispute with the idea that BoS were dead men walking in Fallout 1, then this is really beyond point. You don't see the signs of decay because Fallout 1 was a snapshot of a world not interested in the world's history beyond ending slides. And in those ending slides BoS has either stagnated or dissolved. Having active scientists doesn't change the fact that they're closed society and their gun domination is not going last for long, as the societies around them restore and put out links they themselves refuse to create.
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May 29, 2023 13:34
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Rappaport posted:Does, or does not, the original text of Fallout 1, include Vree? Does she, or does she not, provide the player with evidence that makes Master commit suicide? You are being incredibly incoherent when you ask these nonsensical leading questions, they aren't proving the point you think they are and just make you look unhinged.
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May 29, 2023 13:40
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Skill check failed
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May 29, 2023 13:41
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Rappaport posted:That I disagree with the ideation of a theme being present where the Brotherhood doesn't comprehend the scientific method, okay good for you literally nobody is arguing that
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May 29, 2023 13:45
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Improbable Lobster posted:You are being incredibly incoherent when you ask these nonsensical leading questions, they aren't proving the point you think they are and just make you look unhinged. This seems to be the case, and I again apologize for failing my skill checks. And being a moron.
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May 29, 2023 13:45
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