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The democrats do not deserve a shred of credit for saving us from a crisis they invented, just as they won't deserve any credit if they ever get around to codifying Roe v. Wade properly. They could have solved this poo poo before and deliberately chose not to so that they could use it at a political football later.
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May 29, 2023 21:33
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Celexi posted:Are we seriously arguing here that well it's a small number of people that will get maltrution and make their lives hell so it may be okay. I'm not confident you know what the trolley problem is, or what it means, if that's what you're getting from the situation.
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May 29, 2023 21:33
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James Garfield posted:It turns out that some bad things happen when voters elect Republicans This hyperbolic nonsense is pointless, could we get a different thread so people can inflate everything to rage against the dems so I can read about actual things that actually happen?
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May 29, 2023 21:35
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James Garfield posted:It turns out that some bad things happen when voters elect Republicans You didn't answer my questions at all. What good policies are causing people to die?
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May 29, 2023 21:35
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socialsecurity posted:This hyperbolic nonsense is pointless, could we get a different thread so people can inflate everything to rage against the dems so I can read about actual things that actually happen? There are several such threads, it's why there's a community of users who come here to harass and derail this one.
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May 29, 2023 21:39
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Fister Roboto posted:You didn't answer my questions at all. What good policies are causing people to die? I was responding to the first question, I'll quote it again here for your convenience Fister Roboto posted:What are the merits of throwing people off of SNAP then? Republicans can kick some people off SNAP because they control part of congress, that's how congress works. If kicking people off SNAP were Democratic policy they would have done it last year. For the second part of your post, about other good policies that kill people, some examples are accidental deaths of workers on infrastructure projects, American soldiers dying in Europe during World War II, and the twelve million people that die of crime every time some city elects a woke mayor. But really there are 330 million people in the country, it is not that hard for a policy change to kill one person in some weird convoluted way. Someone probably died, somewhere in the country, because covid restrictions made them reluctant to seek treatment for a non covid condition. Playing a free association game until you find someone who dies because of a policy is just a bad way to decide its merits, kicking people off SNAP is bad whether or not people die because of it. James Garfield fucked around with this message at 21:54 on May 29, 2023 |
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May 29, 2023 21:50
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Discendo Vox posted:There are several such threads, it's why there's a community of users who come here to harass and derail this one. How is being present in a thread and stating things acerbically, whilst discussing political developments in the United states, derailing or harassment?
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May 29, 2023 21:54
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James Garfield posted:I was responding to the first question, I'll quote it again here for your convenience That's not a merit of throwing people off of SNAP. Construction deaths can be avoided or mitigated, and the point of contruction projects isn't to kill people anyway. War is an entirely different conversation, and to be blunt I think comparing fighting nazis to throwing people off of SNAP is absurd. As to your last example, I really hope you're being sarcastic. You're trying to minimize a horrible policy by making some nebulous claim that "well, any policy could kill people if you think about it". That's ridiculous, I'm sorry. The only point of throwing people off of SNAP is to make their lives worse and shorter so that rich people can have more money. Think about what you're arguing right now. Fister Roboto fucked around with this message at 22:02 on May 29, 2023 |
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May 29, 2023 21:58
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Josef bugman posted:How is being present in a thread and stating things acerbically, whilst discussing political developments in the United states, derailing or harassment? Misrepresenting subjects, continuously, and ignoring corrections, is not being "acerbic". It's threadshitting.
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May 29, 2023 22:04
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Fister Roboto posted:The only point of throwing people off of SNAP is to make their lives worse and shorter so that rich people can have more money. Think about what you're arguing right now. Correct, that is more or less why Republicans are doing it. It turns out that some bad things happen when voters elect Republicans  edit: "more or less" because in 2023 I think most Republican politicians just hate them and want to take their money, any effect on rich people is secondary James Garfield fucked around with this message at 22:15 on May 29, 2023 |
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May 29, 2023 22:12
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Depending on how the hard left and right vote we may not even get this uninspiring compromise. If that happens it will be "fun" political theater, until you realize that the choice is between a section of people being thrown off SNAP and the economic world threatening to go off its axis.
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May 29, 2023 22:15
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https://twitter.com/tedcruz/status/1663200925018726407 I guess Ted Cruz is worried about reelection.
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May 29, 2023 22:18
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Zamujasa posted:The democrats do not deserve a shred of credit for saving us from a crisis they invented, just as they won't deserve any credit if they ever get around to codifying Roe v. Wade properly. They could have solved this poo poo before and deliberately chose not to so that they could use it at a political football later. This is not a problem they could have genuinely prevented in any manner except having won more elections for the house. Which I agree that they should have done, but isn't the criticism most people seem to be lobbing at them. They could not have "solved" this poo poo before, and cannot solve it now, in any way that avoids the severe negative consequences they want to avoid, which would in fact hurt a great many innocent people, if indirectly, or in any way that is actually guaranteed to work. They absolutely did not "invent" this particular problem. Liquid Communism posted:You are giving the Democratic Party vastly too much credit for a belief in the idea of liberal democracy that they simply don't have. Political parties do not generally have "beliefs", since they are not singular entities with singular minds, but political coalitions made up of many individuals with different beliefs, priorities, and motivations. This is especially true in the case of the Democrats, a party currently made up of literally everyone at this point that isn't a far-right Republican monster. The "Democrats" do not, in any part, have the sort of power some people in this thread seem to think they do. The voters could have chosen to give that power to the Democrats, and not just to the Democrats but the best part of the Democratic party, and decided not to. That is the reality of the situation. Celexi posted:Are we seriously arguing here that well it's a small number of people that will get maltrution and make their lives hell so it may be okay. What solution do you want that does not make people's lives hell? Because there isn't actually one of those available. Even if you think Biden should have aggressively told the Republicans to gently caress off from the word go and committed fully to embracing the 14th (which I think he should have done, even if he was willing to negotiate that's the sort of position of power its good to negotiate from) the reality is that outcome absolutely would have made a lot of lives a lot shittier and probably killed several people as well.
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May 29, 2023 22:36
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GlyphGryph posted:This is not a problem they could have genuinely prevented in any manner except having won more elections for the house. Which I agree that they should have done, but isn't the criticism most people seem to be lobbing at them. They could not have "solved" this poo poo before, and cannot solve it now, in any way that avoids the severe negative consequences they want to avoid, which would in fact hurt a great many innocent people, if indirectly, or in any way that is actually guaranteed to work. If you know the debt limit is a problem (as it has been) and have the power to do it (remember the times of a supermajority, or the times where "we could remove the filibuster but instead we'll leave it there, even though we'll never have 60 votes", or etc, etc, etc. Like Roe, they had opportunities in the past to make this a non-issue. They just don't. They never will.
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May 29, 2023 22:41
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So a substantial wrinkle to this argument is that, if I'm looking at the bill correctly, the exemptions added to the SNAP work requirements aren't just for those who are being impacted by the raising of the age limit from 50 to 55 - they impact everyone who is homeless, a veteran, or a former foster kid under 25. So depending on how the numbers shake out, this bill may actually let more people onto food stamps than it's kicking off. e: I don't think Kevin McCarthy is very good at negotiating
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May 29, 2023 22:53
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Zamujasa posted:If you know the debt limit is a problem (as it has been) and have the power to do it (remember the times of a supermajority, or the times where "we could remove the filibuster but instead we'll leave it there, even though we'll never have 60 votes", or etc, etc, etc. From a purely amoral "how do we retain power" standpoint, being the party that repeals something called the "debt limit" is extremely awkward because the voting public is badly misinformed/kind of dumb and has bought fully into the concept that the federal budget is like a household budget and debts are inherently bad. The positives gained by repealing the debt limit could very easily be wiped out by political backlash handing more power to their opponents. America is a country where Republicans have successfully managed to brand the Democrats as the wildly profligate tax and spend party despite half a century of Republican administrations exploding the deficit and Democratic administrations shrinking it, after all.
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May 29, 2023 22:59
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It shouldn’t be that hard to “market” raising the debt ceiling as like paying off your credit card, but no one’s even trying
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May 29, 2023 23:04
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Acebuckeye13 posted:So a substantial wrinkle to this argument is that, if I'm looking at the bill correctly, the exemptions added to the SNAP work requirements aren't just for those who are being impacted by the raising of the age limit from 50 to 55 - they impact everyone who is homeless, a veteran, or a former foster kid under 25. So depending on how the numbers shake out, this bill may actually let more people onto food stamps than it's kicking off. Huh, your post made me curious, so I looked it up to find further details. It led me to this White House Press Briefing transcript: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2023/05/28/background-press-call-on-the-bipartisan-budget-agreement/ quote:The second, on SNAP: Limit, Save, Grow proposed to expand the SNAP work requirements to people age 50 to 55; currently, they go from 18 to 49. And then during the negotiations, Republican negotiators demanded another SNAP cut that would have restricted state flexibility to waive SNAP work requirements in areas with insufficient jobs. So it sounds like the number of people eligible for SNAP will remain about the same. Guess we can stop the chat about how many people Biden wants to kill by restricting SNAP requirements.
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May 29, 2023 23:08
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Acebuckeye13 posted:So a substantial wrinkle to this argument is that, if I'm looking at the bill correctly, the exemptions added to the SNAP work requirements aren't just for those who are being impacted by the raising of the age limit from 50 to 55 - they impact everyone who is homeless, a veteran, or a former foster kid under 25. So depending on how the numbers shake out, this bill may actually let more people onto food stamps than it's kicking off. I can't really hope they'll kick Kevin out of the speakership because then there's a risk someone who knows what they are doing will show up.
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May 29, 2023 23:10
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haveblue posted:It shouldn’t be that hard to “market” raising the debt ceiling as like paying off your credit card, but no one’s even trying https://twitter.com/RepKatiePorter/status/1660701761923891216?t=qi741nRtmaGH6ZlsDRR9zw&s=19 Yeah no one And she is not the only one I've heard make the argument.
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May 29, 2023 23:18
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Name Change posted:I can't really hope they'll kick Kevin out of the speakership because then there's a risk someone who knows what they are doing will show up. Pretty sure nobody else wants the job right now, wasn't that kind of the theme of the 15 votes back in January?
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May 29, 2023 23:20
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Kalit posted:Huh, your post made me curious, so I looked it up to find further details. It led me to this White House Press Briefing transcript: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2023/05/28/background-press-call-on-the-bipartisan-budget-agreement/ Every time you add means testing and other barriers you get fall off as people give up, don't get the information they need, have trouble with applications, etc. It's really difficult to deal with when you're disabled! Adding new people to the program does not cancel out removing current users.
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May 29, 2023 23:29
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Rogue0071 posted:As someone who has participated in a political campaign for a socialist candidate in a state completely controlled by the Democratic Party and seen them pull out every possible element of ratfuckery to keep us off the ballot, I strongly concur. Yeah, I'm in Iowa and watched the state Dems utterly ratfuck our caucuses last Presidential election from the floor. I get it. Cost them their first in the nation status next round too, hope it was worth it. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 23:48 on May 29, 2023 |
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May 29, 2023 23:45
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Adenoid Dan posted:Every time you add means testing and other barriers you get fall off as people give up, don't get the information they need, have trouble with applications, etc. It's really difficult to deal with when you're disabled! But, following your logic, the inverse also occurs due to Biden removing the some other current barriers as well. Why is this not overall a net neutral?
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May 29, 2023 23:49
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Acebuckeye13 posted:So a substantial wrinkle to this argument is that, if I'm looking at the bill correctly, the exemptions added to the SNAP work requirements aren't just for those who are being impacted by the raising of the age limit from 50 to 55 - they impact everyone who is homeless, a veteran, or a former foster kid under 25. So depending on how the numbers shake out, this bill may actually let more people onto food stamps than it's kicking off. I mean we already knew that but like To see the best he can do here, forcing a capitulation by holding a knife to the neck of the actual Line that has to Go Up, and this is all he gets so far?
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May 29, 2023 23:50
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Kalit posted:But, following your logic, the inverse also occurs due to Biden removing the some other current barriers as well. Why is this not overall a net neutral? I guarantee it matters to the people affected.
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May 29, 2023 23:52
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Adenoid Dan posted:I guarantee it matters to the people affected. yeah, like a significant portion of the homeless in the US The Biden admin could in theory heavily mitigate the main impact of the work requirement (the sudden addition of paperwork and bureaucracy) by having more Department of... ...Agriculture? people helping people navigate the labyrinth, it was something that eg the Obama admin tried pretty hard to set up with the ACA. "With what money from this deal?" is I suppose a fair retort.
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May 30, 2023 00:12
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Zamujasa posted:If you know the debt limit is a problem (as it has been) and have the power to do it (remember the times of a supermajority, or the times where "we could remove the filibuster but instead we'll leave it there, even though we'll never have 60 votes", or etc, etc, etc. There is not any kind of thing they have the power to do that would make the debt limit not a problem so long as Republicans continue to be elected to a dominant position in the house, except taking that power away from the house (which is something only the courts or an amendment can even arguably do, and those are not things the Dems have the power to decide outcomes for) At best they could change the name of what the problem is called, but it would still be the same problem - electing enough Republicans that they have the power to hurt people puts us in the same exact boat. And while they absolutely could have and should have codified Roe, it's important to remember that that too would hardly a "yay now this is not a problem anymore solution" and we are currently already in a situation where the Republicans could trivially do away with any such codification and the Democrats would have no power to stop it than they do now. They should have done both of those things because symbolism is actually important and structural inertia holds some value, but it's naive beyond belief to think they had the power to make this poo poo not a problem no matter how many Republicans got elected - and even for what they could have done, the reason they didnt is because the parts of the party that wanted to didn't ever have that power (and parts of the party very obviously wanted to)
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May 30, 2023 00:14
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Adenoid Dan posted:I guarantee it matters to the people affected. I don't understand this Line of thinking either. Why do we have to shove two people from a group of 10 down the hill instead of 8 and instead not shove anyone at all?
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May 30, 2023 00:59
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Acebuckeye13 posted:So a substantial wrinkle to this argument is that, if I'm looking at the bill correctly, the exemptions added to the SNAP work requirements aren't just for those who are being impacted by the raising of the age limit from 50 to 55 - they impact everyone who is homeless, a veteran, or a former foster kid under 25. So depending on how the numbers shake out, this bill may actually let more people onto food stamps than it's kicking off. Yes, this (about SNAP) is one of the talking points that the White House has been circulating since last night, as are "Kevin McCarthy sucks at negotiating" and "this isn't blood; it's victory wine." I think it's far more incriminating of both parties that a 10.5 percent increase in military spending wasn't even debated, just reflexively approved by both parties while our social safety net is further shredded year after year. That doesn't bode well for future budget & debt-ceiling "fights." eta: for example, https://twitter.com/DeItaone/status/1663256334869856266 Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 01:03 on May 30, 2023 |
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May 30, 2023 01:00
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Celexi posted:I don't understand this Line of thinking either. Why do we have to shove two people from a group of 10 down the hill instead of 8 and instead not shove anyone at all? Because Republicans control the House and they want their pound of flesh.
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May 30, 2023 01:01
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Glad to hear that helping poor people not starve was hard but money for military? Bipartisan "HELL YEAH". (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 30, 2023 01:10
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Celexi posted:I don't understand this Line of thinking either. Why do we have to shove two people from a group of 10 down the hill instead of 8 and instead not shove anyone at all? Nothing can pass the house without Republican votes, and a default would be shoving the entire group down the hill.
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May 30, 2023 01:11
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I hope one day to see Bernie Sanders pass M4A and jump up on Mitch McConnel’s desk and do the DX crotch chop to the music and fireworks to spite the GOP
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May 30, 2023 01:15
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I personally hope to see Mitch McConnel catch a prion disease. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 30, 2023 01:18
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If we're blowing out birthday candles here my wish is that Democrats refuse to increase military spending. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 30, 2023 01:26
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Liquid Communism posted:I personally hope to see Mitch McConnel catch a prion disease. I started to write a reply to this but decided that a Secret Service visit isn't in anyone's interest.
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May 30, 2023 01:26
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Willa Rogers posted:Yes, this (about SNAP) is one of the talking points that the White House has been circulating since last night, as are "Kevin McCarthy sucks at negotiating" and "this isn't blood; it's victory wine." That tweet contains zero context or sourcing whatsoever, so I don't know what the heck it's even saying Biden is talking about (what Republican concerns???). I don't know that a random headlines aggregator Twitter account is ever really a good contribution to this thread. I'm also not sure where this 10.5% increase you're talking about comes from. As far as I can tell, the debt ceiling deal (which I assume is what you're talking about since it's the current subject of discussion) maintains the existing FY2024 defense budget request of $842 billion, a 3.3% increase from the FY2023 level. And the only Republican concerns I've seen about it are that it's not enough of an increase for them. quote:While the agreement grows the defense topline to Biden’s proposed $886 billion, numerous Republican defense hawks in Congress have already lambasted that proposal as “inadequate” for not keeping pace with inflation. In March, when the budget request was released, they pushed for a 3% to 5% increase over inflation.
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May 30, 2023 01:55
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Skex posted:I think that something that is often missed in the whole Dems bad debate is that ultimately the core principle of the Democratic party is a belief and reverence for democracy as a system of government so don't expect them to flaunt the rules the way Republicans do. I don't think anyone wants the Dems to "flaunt" the rules, but act like they give a drat and abuse them to the fullest extent of their power. It's about playing like you want to win. Mint the coin and put Biden's face on it.
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May 30, 2023 02:14
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Willa Rogers posted:Yes, this (about SNAP) is one of the talking points that the White House has been circulating since last night, as are "Kevin McCarthy sucks at negotiating" and "this isn't blood; it's victory wine." Where are you getting 10% from? It's a 3.3% increase. The Republicans wanted 9%, but not sure where the 10% figure is coming from.
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May 30, 2023 02:43
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