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Ravenfood posted:Does comparing those have any value to say they are the same tier? Yes. Tiering is just a way to group. It makes more sense to group by strength than by what campaign building they come out of. Ravenfood posted:The building tiers are clearer and are how they have been discussed since WH1. No. There are factions that get some units earlier than others. Some units are put needlessly late in buildings causing some issues. Looking at Foot Squires being a building T4 and empire great swords being building T3. Or you could call them both T2 infantry which is way more clear. And people have been using building tiers since WH1 and have been wrong. As stated, dwarfs have 3 different shielded infantry. It makes sense to say T1, T2, T3. It does not make sense to say T1, T3, T5.
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May 30, 2023 15:11
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It makes plenty of sense if you think about it for one second.
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May 30, 2023 15:18
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Kanos posted:This is technically true in the game's labeling, but also complete nonsense in practice, because the game's flagged tiers are enormously over-broad and the building tier system is far more granular. The most granular of options is using unmodified gold recruitment costs and it is what I prefer. Kanos posted:Blessed Trebuchets are a tier 2 unit that comes out of a tier 5 building. That is a problem with building tiers as a descriptor isn't it. Lets explore that a bit more. Blessed Trebuchets Unit T2 Building T5 Empire Mortar Unit T2 Building T3 Empire Rocket Battery Unit T3 Building T4 Empire Steam Tank Unit T3 Building T5 Chaos Dwarf Magma Cannon Unit T3 Building T2 The magma cannon is one instance where building tiers just don't cut the description of strength. But there are other issues there looking at building tier comparable strength.
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May 30, 2023 15:18
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I will now forever call the magma cannon a T2 unit.
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May 30, 2023 15:19
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Third World Reagan posted:I will now forever call the magma cannon a T2 unit. And pretty much the entire campaign playing playerbase would agree with you!
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May 30, 2023 15:20
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When you say that a blessed trebuchet is T5 and a magma cannon is T2, there is some expectation that these tiers show how good a unit is. And with this example, we can see that it does not do that well or without possible confusion. That is because a building tiering system for campaign only states how soon you could get a unit, not its strength or usefulness. This is also ignoring any specific factions that get things sooner than others as well as landmark buildings. On the other hand, the game has an existing system for how strong units are. It is right there. It says it on the unit card. It would say a blessed trebuchet is T3 and a magma cannon is T3. You can then look at the costs and effects to compare strength and usefulness.
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May 30, 2023 15:28
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Blowing my mind with that T1-T3 icon on the unit card. Literally never parsed it before. T0-5 is useful shorthand because across 20+ factions how soon you get a unit usually dictates the strength with some exceptions but identifying the faction usually covers it. Dwarf T1(Dwarf Warriors) and Delf T1-2(Darkshards) gets the message across otherwise you have a generalized experience with T1 infantry across most factions for example. Third World Reagan posted:The grail reliquae offers a better buff than aspiring champions and can melee with frenzy. Is it just the SEM part that is awful? A Grail Reliquae is a single model that gives itself frenzy and deals 30 damage/15 Armor Piercing every four(3 frenzied?) seconds. It is an accurate representation of a bunch of goofballs carrying a skeleton on a horse frame and ramming its lance into something with their foot speed. Doomykins fucked around with this message at 15:36 on May 30, 2023 |
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May 30, 2023 15:34
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Third World Reagan posted:
How were people wrong when your tiering system didn't exist until wh3? High Elves have 3 different dragons, in clear escalating strength. Does it make sense to tier them t1, t2, t3? And if so, why doesn't the game? Or, for that matter, why are clear upgrades (a la Bretonnia) in the same tier?
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May 30, 2023 15:38
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Third World Reagan posted:I will now forever call the magma cannon a T2 unit. Yes, in fact when Chorfs came out people were arguing that one of the reasons magma cannon were too powerful was that they came in at t2 and invalidated later tiers, such as the t3 deathshrieker. Now that they have rebalanced them, their tiers are a bit more accurate. (Another proposed balance solution was simply swapping the tiers and cost). And people can talk about how crazy strong darkshards are for a t1 unit, because a huge part of their power is how early and how cheap you can get them. E: and yes, you can create faction identity by adjusting the power at various tiers. Magma cannon being so powerful for t2 solidify Chorfs as an artillery faction. Questing Knights being so powerful for T3 units show off Bretonnia as a cavalry faction. Dwarfs should almost certainly get access to their heaviest infantry sooner under the same logic. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 15:59 on May 30, 2023 |
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May 30, 2023 15:42
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Doomykins posted:Blowing my mind with that T1-T3 icon on the unit card. Literally never parsed it before. I know, right?! Ravenfood posted:How were people wrong when your tiering system didn't exist until wh3? OOOH! That explains it yeah, I don't pay too much attention to the unit card anymore. The dragon thing is particularly illuminating too.
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May 30, 2023 15:43
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Third World Reagan posted:When you say that a blessed trebuchet is T5 and a magma cannon is T2, there is some expectation that these tiers show how good a unit is. And with this example, we can see that it does not do that well or without possible confusion. This is more of an issue that the magma cannon is ludicrously powerful for the building tier that they come in in the campaign, rather than the building based tiering system being mostly inaccurate. The blessed trebuchet is pretty reasonably a high tier unit, being an incredibly accurate artillery piece that literally cannot cause friendly fire. Maybe a little undertuned for tier 5, but Bretonnia is pretty old and hasn't gotten reworks so it would probably be knocked down to tier 4 in a full overhaul. To use another chorf example, the Deathshrieker, Hellcannon, and Dreadquake are all labeled "tier 3" on the unit card. The Deathshrieker and the Hellcannon come in at the same building tier and are roughly equivalent in power. The Dreadquake comes in at a higher building tier and is noticeably more powerful.
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May 30, 2023 15:50
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The unit tiers serve their purpose well enough: to tell players unfamiliar with the roster whether the unit is cheap early-game trash, medium-cost mid-game trash, or expensive elite stuff. Yeah, if you're sending two units of the same unit tier against each other, you'd have to look at the actual stats to see how they compare, but it's a easy way to get a good general idea of whether there's a substantial gap in unit quality. Unit tiers group unit quality generally across all factions, while campaign building tiers group how accessible a unit is within a particular faction's campaign. Which generally scales with power, but isn't consistent between factions because different factions have different playstyles, and different unit availability can be part of that. Yeah, the High Elves have three dragons with clearly escalating quality and cost, all of which are unit tier 3. But even the cheapest of those costs more than twice as much as the T2 Great Eagle, and gets missile resistance, AP damage, Terror, Siege Attacker, and a substantial increase in mass and general combat stats. The differences between the three T3 dragons are a lot smaller than the difference between the T2 Eagle and the T3 dragons.
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May 30, 2023 16:03
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Improving Bretonnia's siege capabilities doesn't mean you have to give them infantry. You could, for example, give trebuchets a bonus vs walls making the cavalry much more useful in a siege.
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May 30, 2023 16:04
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Third World Reagan posted:I will now forever call the magma cannon a T2 unit. You better not!!!
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May 30, 2023 16:05
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Vizuyos posted:The unit tiers serve their purpose well enough: to tell players unfamiliar with the roster whether the unit is cheap early-game trash, medium-cost mid-game trash, or expensive elite stuff. Yeah, if you're sending two units of the same unit tier against each other, you'd have to look at the actual stats to see how they compare, but it's a easy way to get a good general idea of whether there's a substantial gap in unit quality. They could have simply have adapted the building system that already existed in TWW1 and TWW2 and was widely understood by existing players and used a 5 tier system on the unit cards, or at least a 4 tier system, because the three tier system means that like 70% of a given faction's units are labeled "tier 3". There's a larger cost and quality gap between a star dragon and a sun dragon than there is between, say, infernal guard and chorf warriors. If the goal of adding the label was to make it easy for a newbie to identify a unit's relative quality level at a glance, it kind of fails completely if the categories are too broad. Kanos fucked around with this message at 16:18 on May 30, 2023 |
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May 30, 2023 16:12
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tbh I think the best way to give Bretonnia better infantry without ruining the theme would be to allow dismounting -- and then give the knights a substantial leadership penalty to illustrate their disgust at fighting on their feet like commoners.
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May 30, 2023 16:16
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I feel like without their mobility and charge bonus, dismounted knights would be pretty anemic and situational units? Yea they would be heavily armored and hit hard, but slow heavy infantry are some of the easiest things to gameplan against.
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May 30, 2023 16:18
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wedgie deliverer posted:I feel like without their mobility and charge bonus, dismounted knights would be pretty anemic and situational units? Yea they would be heavily armored and hit hard, but slow heavy infantry are some of the easiest things to gameplan against. I think the main reason for wanting this is choke points and siege maps where you may want to defend at a choke point or get on a wall. But I enjoy factions having weaknesses you plan around. Also lol what siege maps we took them all out.
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May 30, 2023 16:19
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Yeah basically the whole point would be to supplement your infantry line rather than replace it outright, or give them a little more flexibility in situations where cavalry isn't as useful like a siege, or if the enemy has a ton of anti-large. Most of the time you would want to keep them mounted, which in the lore is what they would prefer themselves
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May 30, 2023 16:20
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Cythereal posted:This is what Repanse should have been, imo. Lily's Repanse the Peasant Queen (or whatever) mod does this. It's great fun pwning everybody with peasants
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May 30, 2023 16:31
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If you want to play infantry focused Bretonnia, just play Cathay or Empire, IMHO. 
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May 30, 2023 16:33
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Tier 3 thread! Bravo!
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May 30, 2023 16:41
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Slider posted:yeah i lower the power limit on my 3080ti specifically for this game, it just destroys your PC. i don't remember having this much of an issue compared to WH2, and to me WH2 graphics in the campaign map actually looked better How do you do this? I have the same card.
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May 30, 2023 16:43
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DaysBefore posted:Lily's Repanse the Peasant Queen (or whatever) mod does this. It's great fun pwning everybody with peasants Repanse's whole backstory is that she picked up some armor, found a horse and shamed the other knights who were running away from Chaos. they collectively said o fuk a damsel is braver than us?!? they then rallied and took down the invading forces. she was then given knighthood, frfr, and became the Duchess of Lyonesse which I think her skills represent pretty well. peasant upbringing but she's a knight thru and thru
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May 30, 2023 16:46
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repanse is an angrier joan of arc with the englished scrubbed out and chaos scrubbed in just like the sisters of battle are basically all joans of arc to a woman with power armor and bolters and pipe organ multiple launch rocket systems and scrimshawed mecha
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May 30, 2023 16:48
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Huh. There's a province in TW3 that I had no idea existed until I saw it in a video of someone playing a campaign: the Eastern Colonies. Three islands way off in the middle of the sea, east of the Southlands. Not even anything particularly special to them, and inhabited by a random high elf minor. Start location for a planned future LL, perhaps? Future proofing for Ind?
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May 30, 2023 19:33
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Nah they're just elven colonies. It's referenced on some old maps or something. I like to take them if I'm playing Imrik, Teclis, or Lokhir because that province is worth a ton of money with three elven ports.
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May 30, 2023 19:43
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I always take those as Imrik, they're safe as houses and make mad money to fuel the hellwar with the Chaos Dwarves
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May 30, 2023 19:50
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Cythereal posted:Huh. There's a province in TW3 that I had no idea existed until I saw it in a video of someone playing a campaign: the Eastern Colonies. Three islands way off in the middle of the sea, east of the Southlands. Not even anything particularly special to them, and inhabited by a random high elf minor. They're a lore thing; the Everqueen goes there every year to throw Morrisleb back into space since it's literally an evil moon and is always trying to crash into the earth.
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May 30, 2023 20:12
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Kanos posted:If the goal of adding the label was to make it easy for a newbie to identify a unit's relative quality level at a glance, it kind of fails completely if the categories are too broad. Tier 3 is overloaded and they could have gone with 5 tiers, but since they don't correspond to building tiers (for good reasons other posters have already pointed out) that would have caused even more confusion with the system existing players were used to. Sindai fucked around with this message at 20:15 on May 30, 2023 |
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May 30, 2023 20:12
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I bought the Taurox DLC and boy, Beastmen sure got a glowup since last I played. Their mechanics are almost unrecognizable other than their whole Horde gameplay.
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May 30, 2023 20:14
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wiegieman posted:They're a lore thing; the Everqueen goes there every year to throw Morrisleb back into space since it's literally an evil moon and is always trying to crash into the earth.
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May 30, 2023 20:14
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You can also look at how much gold a unit costs to get a rough sense of its power and worth on the battlefield. Not perfect bc I don't think it accounts for technologies which can majorly affect how good a unit is.
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May 30, 2023 20:29
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SHISHKABOB posted:You can also look at how much gold a unit costs to get a rough sense of its power and worth on the battlefield. Not perfect bc I don't think it accounts for technologies which can majorly affect how good a unit is. can you see how much upkeep enemy units have? I think the unit tiers on the cards are most useful for new players during the battles since they can get a very general gist of how powerful any particular units are. There's also the matchup indicators that appear over units when you have a friendly unit selected that shows how risky the matchups are im glad these things are in the game, even tho they arent really noticeable and have weird idiosyncrasies at times
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May 30, 2023 20:53
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I liked the unit tier system as a way to quickly compare between factions, but I'd agree the lack of granularity also hurts it in that exact use case. There probably should be four or five tiers of units to help further quickly differentiate between power levels, and while you could certainly tie them into buildings, there are definitely some problems there with some factions unlocking higher tier units they specialize in earlier and having lower tier units come from higher tier buildings. Like, using the current unit tiers, most tier I and II units are classified pretty well (except maybe blunderbussies), but as others have mentioned, there's not enough granularity in the tier III units to compare them effectively without digging into stat blocks, which kind of makes the unit tier system significantly less useful than it ought to be.
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May 30, 2023 21:16
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Doomykins posted:
Bertrand the Brigand is basically this, really fun campaign, I recommend checking it out.
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May 30, 2023 21:17
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Make a peasant friend LL with Champions of the Downtrodden who has worse horses and better ground(front, archers) game then. I don't want to detract from Horse but add to the roster.
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wiegieman posted:They're a lore thing; the Everqueen goes there every year to throw Morrisleb back into space since it's literally an evil moon and is always trying to crash into the earth. Morrslieb's Mask
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May 30, 2023 21:25
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Went down a rabbit hole and now I'm trying to find a book. I had thought that Repanse was made Duke of whatever and not a Duchess because clearly Duchessess can't go to war or anything, so poo poo, but nowhere does it say women can't be dukes (or have to be knights), so i guess she is a Duke now! But that clearly didn't happen and now I think I read that happening in some book somewhere and I'm wondering if that sparks bells anywhere else for someone.
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May 30, 2023 21:31
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I'm pretty sure Repanse's story is from a Codex, you can prob find scans pretty easily
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May 30, 2023 21:37
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Third World Reagan posted:Yes. Tiering is just a way to group. It makes more sense to group by strength than by what campaign building they come out of. Lmao, this is the best troll this thread has seen.
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May 30, 2023 21:58
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