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Eletriarnation posted:You are factually correct that if she's "never told a single truth in her life" it doesn't conclusively prove that she's wrong. Question: is there a reason you find it necessary and worthwhile to defend someone like this UKJeff posted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfpWL7IFAQ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4OYPiV1GsY
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May 31, 2023 05:21
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:Question: is there a reason you find it necessary and worthwhile to defend someone like this Nah, I just think that the statement I was responding to was hyperbolic to the point of being kinda dumb. I also think it's hilarious to be like "it totally doesn't matter that this person accusing Joe Biden of crimes is now best buds with Vladimir Putin's administration." I'm not exactly a big fan of Joe Biden and could think of a lot of people I'd rather be president, but there are clearly some folks on this forum who severely dislike him and are going to pop out of the woodwork at any chance to drag him. I get that it's gonna happen, he's President and this is a current events thread, but this particular series of events doesn't feel like an interesting or novel discussion at all.
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May 31, 2023 05:27
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Eletriarnation posted:You are factually correct that if she's "never told a single truth in her life" it doesn't conclusively prove that she's wrong. OK well that's just an extreme hypothetical to highlight my point. Presumably Reade has said some true things in her life. The problem then is that it still comes down to litigating how trustworthy she is - which is exactly what "believe victims" is meant to push back against. Victims shouldn't have to meet some arbitrary level of trustworthiness in order for their allegations to be taken seriously.
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May 31, 2023 05:30
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Eletriarnation posted:Nah, I just think that the statement I was responding to was hyperbolic to the point of being kinda dumb. I also think it's hilarious to be like "it totally doesn't matter that this person accusing Joe Biden of crimes is now best buds with Vladimir Putin's administration." Do tell. How is “Joe Biden sexually assaulted me” in any way shape or form discredited with “I am taking help from Putin 30 years later?”
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May 31, 2023 05:31
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Eletriarnation posted:Nah, I just think that the statement I was responding to was hyperbolic to the point of being kinda dumb. I also think it's hilarious to be like "it totally doesn't matter that this person accusing Joe Biden of crimes is now best buds with Vladimir Putin's administration." You choose what you do with your time. I’m just curious why your choice is to defend a person who has been recorded on camera touching and kissing women and children without consent. There are plenty of other topics to discuss in this thread (especially the debt ceiling agreement). Why focus on defending, at best, someone who has committed sexual assault? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 31, 2023 05:33
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Eletriarnation posted:Nah, I just think that the statement I was responding to was hyperbolic to the point of being kinda dumb. I also think it's hilarious to be like "it totally doesn't matter that this person accusing Joe Biden of crimes is now best buds with Vladimir Putin's administration." If I had a head of state and the whole media gaslighting me about my rape, I'd probably leave the country too. Do we now doubt Snowden because he left for there too? I don't know if it's an interesting discussion but it's an important one.
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May 31, 2023 05:38
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Pissed Ape Sexist posted:Man, I've been offline all day, but there's a sparkle in the air like an antagonistic power with a weaponized media army co-opted a contentious yet vulnerable figure for a throwaway media clip just to drum up confusion and the misplaced hatred/infighting that naturally ensues at no cost to said antagonistic power. Oh well might as well use my sit-down time to start catching up on the ol' USCE thread to make sure that's not the ca- *balls explode, turlet shrapnel penetrates two walls and the fridge* It's got the same horrible cycle as a lot of culture war poo poo where right-wing and liberal media are in symbiosis of disingenuous reacting to one another, Tara Reade as a persecuted victim blowing the whistle vs Tara Reade as a lying Russian whore threatening Dear Leader, people gotta have their hero and villain. Especially because you'd almost think Tara Reade has reason to distrust US institutions and media, and has been smeared in brutal and insane ways long before she was courted by Russian media who have incentive to platform anti-US voices especially if they have legitimate grievances!
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May 31, 2023 05:40
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Can we just end this loving discussion about Reade and be done with it? It's been three goddamn years and nobody's mind will ever be changed. Whatever valid points that might have been made at some point are always secondary to owning the libs or CSPAM or whoever the gently caress else, and it is consistently one of the most grating and gross discussions on this forum at both ends. Please just loving end it.
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May 31, 2023 05:41
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:You choose what you do with your time. I’m just curious why your choice is to defend a person who has been recorded on camera touching and kissing women and children without consent. There are plenty of other topics to discuss in this thread (especially the debt ceiling agreement). Why focus on defending, at best, someone who has committed sexual assault? I'm not "focused" on defending Joe Biden, and would in fact be quite happy to read more discussion on the debt ceiling agreement. I do not have insights to contribute to that discussion myself, so I followed my usual pattern of lurking in this thread while it was being discussed. Now that people are engaged in a discussion that seems to be more driven by personal vendettas than any significant new facts to consider I figured I'd chime in with my opinion. Jaxyon posted:If I had a head of state and the whole media gaslighting me about my rape, I'd probably leave the country too. Do we now doubt Snowden because he left for there too? It's less about the fact that she left this country, and more about which country she went to.
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May 31, 2023 05:42
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Jaxyon posted:Do we now doubt Snowden because he left for there too? Snowden left for Hong Kong initially. He hosed up with that choice (lol libertarians) and ended up in Russia.
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May 31, 2023 05:44
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Can we just end this loving discussion about Reade and be done with it? It's been three goddamn years and nobody's mind will ever be changed. Whatever valid points that might have been made at some point are always secondary to owning the libs or CSPAM or whoever the gently caress else, and it is consistently one of the most grating and gross discussions on this forum at both ends. Please just loving end it. Can you go into more detail about how this discussion is gross at "both ends"? How, specifically, are both sides of this argument equally vile?
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May 31, 2023 05:45
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Whatever else Ms. Butina seems pretty good at her job.
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May 31, 2023 05:45
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Eletriarnation posted:It's less about the fact that she left this country, and more about which country she went to. The nation promising to help her leave? Do you understand how difficult it is to leave the country? How is her leaving the states for Russia relevant to what happened to her 30 years ago?
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May 31, 2023 05:46
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Fister is correct, btw.virtualboyCOLOR posted:Why focus on defending, at best, someone who has committed sexual assault? Not trying to speak for Eletriarnation here, but from my experience the gut reaction that people have to people experiencing something far outside of what they've come to expect as "normal" is to find reasons why their world view isn't wrong; something about the situation is. Many men are totally shielded from the reality of how common sexual assault really is, and so are predisposed to assuming it doesn't happen all that often and the men who do it are in some way like, "knowable." Like how transphobes think there's always a tell when someone is trans? There's a sneer or a darkness, a vibe that says "rapist" wafting from the truly bad men who do it. Obviously that's not right, but it's so common that I think there's something to that, at least. It is much easier to believe that sexual assault is rare and that some women are simply lying about it for ~reasons~ than it is to accept that a lot of people you think you know very well may have done some hosed up poo poo in their past -- or that you yourself may have. And I guess sometimes people just do this because they're parasocially connected to the idea of their "team" and so rather than be tarnished by assosciation or liking someone who does bad things, they simply find reason to believe all aspersions cast in their direction are lies. It's probably the same kind of thing that makes the concentration camps at the border a big loving deal up until they're held by a different team, at which point they quietly fade into the background.
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May 31, 2023 05:46
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Eletriarnation posted:It's less about the fact that she left this country, and more about which country she went to. Go back and read the articles for the original reporting, Russia was a thing back in 2020 when the stories originally broke. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/12/...ce=articleShare “ as well as accusations that she was a Russian agent because of Medium posts and tweets, several of which are now deleted, she had written praising President Vladimir Putin. Ms. Reade said that she was not working for Russia and did not support Mr. Putin, and that her comments were pulled out of context from a novel she was writing at the time. “It was trying to smear me and distract from what happened, but it won’t change the facts of what happened in 1993,” she said. She called her praise for Mr. Putin “misguided.””
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May 31, 2023 05:49
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Can we just end this loving discussion about Reade and be done with it? It's been three goddamn years and nobody's mind will ever be changed. Whatever valid points that might have been made at some point are always secondary to owning the libs or CSPAM or whoever the gently caress else, and it is consistently one of the most grating and gross discussions on this forum at both ends. Please just loving end it. As someone (mostly) lurking the thread, I find the discussion interesting as a way to examine whether I agree or disagree with a given sentiment or framing. It's going to be acrimonious, but so is everything else these days.
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May 31, 2023 05:56
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Acebuckeye13 posted:and it is consistently one of the most grating and gross discussions on this forum at both ends. Please go into how both 'sides'(as you see them) are gross on this subject
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May 31, 2023 05:59
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Eletriarnation posted:I'm not "focused" on defending Joe Biden, and would in fact be quite happy to read more discussion on the debt ceiling agreement. I do not have insights to contribute to that discussion myself, so I followed my usual pattern of lurking in this thread while it was being discussed. Now that people are engaged in a discussion that seems to be more driven by personal vendettas than any significant new facts to consider I figured I'd chime in with my opinion. It doesn't really matter, does it? She's a private citizen, she can go whereever the heck she wants and it's not really any of our concern. I certainly wouldn't say that it retroactively reflects on allegations she made several years ago. It's interesting that the Russian government is apparently so eager to take her and give her a platform, but that's interesting because of what it says about the Russian government's position, not because of what it says about Tara Reade. Taking this as an excuse to put the focus back on Reade herself is downright silly, and arguably just what the Russian government is hoping for. If she's showing up on Russian state media, that's not important because of what it says about her, it's important because of what it says about the Russian government - and especially about the Russian government's potential to involve itself in American politics further in 2024.
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May 31, 2023 05:59
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Main Paineframe posted:It doesn't really matter, does it? She's a private citizen, she can go whereever the heck she wants and it's not really any of our concern. I certainly wouldn't say that it retroactively reflects on allegations she made several years ago. Reade's been doing the RT circuit since at least 2021.
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May 31, 2023 06:11
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Main Paineframe posted:It doesn't really matter, does it? She's a private citizen, she can go whereever the heck she wants and it's not really any of our concern. I certainly wouldn't say that it retroactively reflects on allegations she made several years ago. Yes, exactly! It doesn't matter, and opinions on Reade's allegations are pretty much going to be set in stone for most people based on events from years ago. That's part of why I said it does not feel like an interesting or novel discussion, but an excuse for a Joe Biden Two Minute Hate. Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at 06:14 on May 31, 2023 |
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May 31, 2023 06:12
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Regardless of what you think of her allegations towards Biden, Reade was involved in the Russian propaganda network long before the 2020 election; not just her personal statements, but things like videos featuring her being distributed on Russian channels on topics like i.e. the 2019 crisis in Bolivia. So her defection doesn't come out of nowhere or anything.
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May 31, 2023 06:14
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I wonder if moving to Russia and announcing it jointly with Maria Butina, using your personal twitter account to cheerlead the Russian invasion of Ukraine for some reason (even before February 24 2022), and writing opinion pieces for Russian state media are related activities.
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May 31, 2023 06:15
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Regardless of what you think of her allegations towards Biden, Reade was involved in the Russian propaganda network long before the 2020 election; not just her personal statements, but things like videos featuring her being distributed on Russian channels on topics like i.e. the 2019 crisis in Bolivia. So her defection doesn't come out of nowhere or anything. The 'crisis' in Bolivia? What did she have to say about that?
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May 31, 2023 06:17
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Kinda makes you seem like a hypocrite if you say that someone is trying to secretly assassinate you while going under the wings of a leader for whom there is documented evidence for secretly and not-so-secretly assassinating multiple people.
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May 31, 2023 07:23
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DarkCrawler posted:Kinda makes you seem like a hypocrite if you say that someone is trying to secretly assassinate you while going under the wings of a leader for whom there is documented evidence for secretly and not-so-secretly assassinating multiple people. Mr Putin is a respectable wise gentleman ruling a country with a strong hand and solid family values, while Biden is in some cases worse than Hitler (whom the libs love, as well) so the choice is pretty clear (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 31, 2023 07:52
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DarkCrawler posted:Kinda makes you seem like a hypocrite if you say that someone is trying to secretly assassinate you while going under the wings of a leader for whom there is documented evidence for secretly and not-so-secretly assassinating multiple people. Not really, no. It might be hypocritical if she was taking a principled stand against all assassinations ever, but not if she's just saying that she personally would prefer not to be assassinated.
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May 31, 2023 07:57
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Main Paineframe posted:Not really, no. It might be hypocritical if she was taking a principled stand against all assassinations ever, but not if she's just saying that she personally would prefer not to be assassinated. As I am sure the people Vladimir Putin assassinated wanted to be too. She definitely took a principled stand for a bunch of things that are immediately invalidated by her destination as well.
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May 31, 2023 08:39
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Since the perception of the accuser's credibility is affected by her words and deeds outside the specific context of her allegation, it's only fair to consider whether the accused's credibility is similarly affected by their words and deeds as well. quote:https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/04/joe-biden-accuser-accusations-allegations.html fizzy fucked around with this message at 10:04 on May 31, 2023 |
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May 31, 2023 09:59
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Whether Tara Reade’s accusations are credible doesn’t matter one iota. Biden is a sex pest due to a whole host of evidence that doesn’t rely on her at all, and Reade is obviously a Russia sympathizing moron. Both things can be true. There’s no point in even investigating her credibility as an accuser because none of the important conclusions rely on it!
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May 31, 2023 10:26
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^^^ correctEletriarnation posted:I'm not exactly a big fan of Joe Biden and could think of a lot of people I'd rather be president, but there are clearly some folks on this forum who severely dislike him and are going to pop out of the woodwork at any chance to drag him. I get that it's gonna happen, he's President and this is a current events thread, but this particular series of events doesn't feel like an interesting or novel discussion at all. I dislike Joe Biden about as much as any US politician, what makes my blood boil is seeing people using fallacious talking points to slander and discredit sexual assault victims. Let’s take the case of Dr Christine Blasey Ford, as an example. She couldn’t recall at which house the sexual assault took place at, nor the day, month or even year. She was uncertain how old she was or in which grade she was when she was assaulted. She told nobody of the sexual assault at the time, and the other four people she identified as being at the party denied any knowledge of being there. In short, her allegations have less to corroborate them than those of Reade. Republicans (and others) were quick to point this out, saying “oh she’s lying, she has no credibility, we can’t impugn a good honest man based on some flimsy allegations”. She was dragged through the mud in front of the American public, and by many media outlets, all so that a powerful white man could progress in their career. To their credit, democratic lawmakers seemed to believe her allegations to the point of having her testify in front of the Senate. Democrat supporters believed and supported her, the #metoo movement and “believe all women” Was in full swing. But then just a few years later, when the shoe is on the other foot, we saw the same talking points used against Reade, simply because she was accusing a Democrat. And we are seeing it again, now, in this very thread. Absolutely disgusting. Yes, it’s me, the guy who is getting mad over a message board. Jokes on me, I suppose.
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May 31, 2023 10:51
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The Reade accusations literally tie right in with #MeToo taking two bullets to the back of the head and falling down the stairs. The effort to make sexual assault suddenly a nothingburger was quite clear.
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May 31, 2023 11:25
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one of the reasons i dont post in dnd much anymore is because the moderation culture is extremely permissive about rampant rape culture as long as the targets are deemed acceptable. the disgusting things posted about tara here have shown that this place is not safe for victims of SA and honestly for women in general. i hope you all are proud of yourselves for carefully cultivating one of the most accepting places to post "this alleged rape victim is prooooooobably a liar" on this entire website (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 31, 2023 12:45
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Yeah it's important to remember that anyone who claims sexual assault is automatically incapable of being dishonest or wrong about anything, ever. Also I really respect and appreciate the depth of nuance and critical thinking in all of this discussion. It's really nice to see an absence of the black-and-white "no shades of grey" thinking that too often drags down the quality of discourse. I'm sure all of you completely 100% support Carolyn Bryant, right? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Vorenus fucked around with this message at 13:08 on May 31, 2023 |
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May 31, 2023 13:04
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A big flaming stink posted:one of the reasons i dont post in dnd much anymore is because the moderation culture is extremely permissive about rampant rape culture as long as the targets are deemed acceptable. What would you suggest? Probating anyone that casts any doubt on Reade's accusations?
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May 31, 2023 13:05
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Vorenus posted:Yeah it's important to remember that anyone who claims sexual assault is automatically incapable of being dishonest or wrong about anything, ever. this precise attitude is instrumental to the perpetuation of rape culture A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 13:36 on May 31, 2023 |
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May 31, 2023 13:14
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A big flaming stink posted:one of the reasons i dont post in dnd much anymore is because the moderation culture is extremely permissive about rampant rape culture as long as the targets are deemed acceptable. She is probably a chronic liar. That doesn't mean she is lying about her assault, either in part or whole. Both can be true.
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May 31, 2023 13:25
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Either way, now that she has become a victimizer I really don't give a poo poo about what happened or will happen to her  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 31, 2023 13:31
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So we’re supposed to take at face value Reade’s new accusations that she uncovered Bidens plot to steal the 2024 election and he is going to have her assassinated? That’s where the disconnect in all this is to me. This recent event doesnt have any real bearing on her past allegations but at the same time her past allegations don’t validate these new wild and unsupported claims. I think you can also question these new claims without explicitly being pro Biden and “defending a rapist”
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May 31, 2023 13:33
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DarkCrawler posted:Either way, now that she has become a victimizer I really don't give a poo poo about what happened or will happen to her To be clear, you don’t care that she was sexually assaulted because she is a “victimizer”? Who did she victimize, Joe Biden? Levitate posted:So we’re supposed to take at face value Reade’s new accusations that she uncovered Bidens plot to steal the 2024 election and he is going to have her assassinated? Maybe I missed it, but I didn’t see anyone making such an assertion. It seemed like the opposite was happening, in that these new claims were used to attack her credibility and serve as further evidence that her allegations were all made up. Apologies if I overlooked something. Personally, I don’t agree with her new claims of Biden planning to steal the 2024 election but I can understand why she would feel unsafe continuing to live in the US.
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May 31, 2023 13:40
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Discendo Vox posted:The Washington Post has a well-researched and written article on the right wing christian home schooling movement, framed by the narrative of some of the families that grew up in it and are now breaking out of its clutches. Professor Beetus posted:There was one person around here who would probably have a lot to say about it but I'm pretty sure she doesn't post here anymore. Prester Jane, your day has come
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