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Rand Brittain posted:I would say it's definitely a hate-read podcast. In the end I got fed up with it because they seem to have completely missed the point and think that a lot of the things Hussie was saying were an attack on all fans, everywhere, when I'm pretty sure what Hussie was trying to say was that they, specifically, have a really lovely way of engaging with media. i dunno i think a lot of homestuck is inextricable from its actual hatred for the people reading it. like i dont' think homestuck is an attack on fans, i think it's literally, thematically, an attack on the concept of storytelling and narratives and the enjoyment of the reader it hates the idea of telling a story in general tbh. i first stopped reading it in the troll arc because instead of continuing the normal progression for a story hussie was subversive and introduced an entire new cast of characters going through the same story. and then he had a breakdown in anger at the fandom and literally did a wall of text update yelling at the fans that he controls the story and he can make you sit through an entire duplicate post about troll relationships if he wants shut up it isn't taking too long. and i was like... nah man relationship between reader and author a contract i don't gotta abide by it, i'm out thanks. and then when i picked it back up and made it passed the troll arc he... he did it again and reset the story and it's the same story with 4 new characters once again and you have to read this from the beginning what you thought this was building to a climax nope haha you got tricked the story's starting over again come back in a few years! it is a series of anti climaxes, deflated climaxes, he basically does everything he can to subvert the rules of storytelling but in the end proves WHY we have those rules in the first place. yeah you can break ALL of them if you want but the story won't be SATISFYING. to the point where if homestuck can be said to have themes, its theme is dismantling the idea of storytelling. it's about breaking stories. homestuck leaves you feeling unsatisfied and frustrated with it because that is its intended GOAL thematically. if it's because he hated the fandom or the people reading it or wanted to prove some point to them--regardless of the reason, that's what the result was. like sweet bro and hella jeff, homestuck is bad on PURPOSE. it exists antagonistically to the readers and the fanbase and the idea of being a story itself. as a story whose theme is anti-story, as a franchise whose concept is "gently caress you fans you guys are weird and plus + suck" as a story that wants you to leave it feeling frustrated, unsatisfied, and upset, it's an incredible piece of work, but most of the homestuck's actual quality was from the other artists and musicians that worked on it, and there's a reason people like toby fox are now doing Big Projects and have their characters showing up in smash bros and why hussie is now mostly known for funding scams and going "uhm the person who told you about all the bad things we've done... yeah they're problematic. i won't tell you that they're wrong..... just that they're problematic. don't accuse me of loving over these people working for me haha lmaaaooo that's so cringe bro........" there's a reason this post-post-post superirony kinda died off and was replaced by honest sincerity again. there's a reason undertale is going strong and homestuck is a punchline. it's, honestly, the same reason somethingawful lost the culture war--the old culture war, the culture war somethingawful stopped fighting and places like 4chan kept up warring with. absolute irony, insincerity, and spite are just honestly exhuasting themes to be married to forever. that homestuck is dead and undertale remains popular is basically the self-demonstration of their themes and who won k6bd coming out of homestuck also is like--look at the themes here vs. the themes in homestuck. homestuck is all about dismantling meaning and sincerity. k6bd is all about finding meaning in an inherently meaningless world. everything homestuck gave birth to seems to have ultimately given birth to it in antagonism and they all are counterexamples to its point? it feels? FlocksOfMice fucked around with this message at 17:32 on May 31, 2023 |
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May 31, 2023 17:28
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It was "of its time" in a potentially interesting way, and full of formal innovation, but its increasing obsession with anticlimax doomed it to end in such a way that most readers would rather forget it. It has influenced much. Webcomics, I tell ya.
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May 31, 2023 17:40
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FlocksOfMice posted:i dunno i think a lot of homestuck is inextricable from its actual hatred for the people reading it. like i dont' think homestuck is an attack on fans, i think it's literally, thematically, an attack on the concept of storytelling and narratives and the enjoyment of the reader I've heard similar things said about a ton of contentious nerd properties (Evangelion, the Star Wars Prequels, Victory Gundam, etc etc...) and with very few exceptions it's always been BS. I don't have any trouble believing that Hussie was a tremendous rear end in a top hat, but saying that it's "literally, thematically, an attack on the concept of storytelling and narratives and the enjoyment of the reader" seems like hyperbole. I think it's way more likely that he just made something many people ultimately didn't like.
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May 31, 2023 17:49
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Schwarzwald posted:I've heard similar things said about a ton of contentious nerd properties (Evangelion, the Star Wars Prequels, Victory Gundam, etc etc...) and with very few exceptions it's always been BS. I've seen few pieces of fiction that go so far to undermine as many of its climaxes, have them happen off screen, kill characters off as a joke and bring them back--like the idea of it is inherent to Homestuck. like the prequel movies just sucked Homestuck made sure you knew it was doing it on purpose
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May 31, 2023 17:55
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This take seems mostly informed by the bits in the middle and largely ignores much of the actual ending, which repudiates irony poisoning and embraces meaning and sincerity. Which is very understandable, because the middle bits are the most memorable ones and the ending is perfunctory in comparison. I guess it's possible to read this as Hussie soft-pedaling his own ending in order to emphasize the earlier anti-story elements? To some extent, sure, he clearly enjoys and excels at writing fakeouts and gotchas a great deal, but there are some very cathartic emotional moments in the run-up to the ending too so it's certainly not as though he can't be sweet and sincere when he needs to be. Mostly I just think Hussie burned out hard and didn't have the creative energy to do the final chapters justice, and I don't know that there's much point in reading deeper into it than that.
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May 31, 2023 17:55
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Not everything born out of Homestuck is a successful antithesis to Homestuck, but Undertale and K6BD sure are. Though the only other thing I remember is Prequel and the only innovation it had over HS was "don't introduce an entirely new cast multiple times". Also it seems to be mostly dead.
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May 31, 2023 17:57
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The third best thing to come out of homestuck:
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May 31, 2023 17:57
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FlocksOfMice posted:it is a series of anti climaxes, deflated climaxes, he basically does everything he can to subvert the rules of storytelling but in the end proves WHY we have those rules in the first place. yeah you can break ALL of them if you want but the story won't be SATISFYING. to the point where if homestuck can be said to have themes, its theme is dismantling the idea of storytelling. it's about breaking stories. homestuck leaves you feeling unsatisfied and frustrated with it because that is its intended GOAL thematically. if it's because he hated the fandom or the people reading it or wanted to prove some point to them--regardless of the reason, that's what the result was. it's this, with a side of Hussie making a smug face about how it's all intentional and extremely clever instead of just being poo poo
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May 31, 2023 18:03
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homestuck’s ending run (say the last 4-6 months of updates) was just as hostile and confrontational as anything else about it. on its face it was the characters sitting around and “sincerely” discussing their feelings but the larger thrust of that whole sequence was that homestuck had somehow outgrown conventional storytelling and the audience was wrong for expecting otherwise
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May 31, 2023 18:06
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Thundarr posted:Not everything born out of Homestuck is a successful antithesis to Homestuck, but Undertale and K6BD sure are. Though the only other thing I remember is Prequel and the only innovation it had over HS was "don't introduce an entirely new cast multiple times". Also it seems to be mostly dead. Dinosaur Comics, pure gold
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May 31, 2023 18:14
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Schwarzwald posted:I've heard similar things said about a ton of contentious nerd properties (Evangelion, the Star Wars Prequels, Victory Gundam, etc etc...) and with very few exceptions it's always been BS.
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May 31, 2023 18:34
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the problem with homestuck is its fundamentally a couple to three dozen really funny bits and good character interactions strung together with a plot even the author admits was just kinda being extrapolated outwards to see how ridiculous he could make it
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May 31, 2023 18:45
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Brought To You By posted:The consistent complaints I've heard about Eva is that it's actually very derivative despite being propped up by fans as a deconstruction of the Super Robot sub-genre of Mecha. I don't have enough of a history to say how valid a take that is but even from where I sit. Eva had decent to good character writing and wasn't trying to subvert the idea of storytelling in the way it seems Homestuck was. But there was a story being told and it told it well enough and with enough coherency. If I had any complaints though it would be the Rebuild movies as a series suck because what they add to the story has less merit that I'd extend to the End of Evangelion movie which tried to improve upon the rushed ending of the original anime. I see less of a goal to the Rebuild films other than people liked Eva and wanted more and with greater visual spectacle but at the cost of a more coherent story and a bunch of nonsensical developments in the final movie. What I was referring to specifically is that there was (is?) a persistent rumor that Hideaki Anno wrote the conclusion to End of Eva as a mean hearted "take that!" against the fans.
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May 31, 2023 18:49
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It reminds me of the JJ Abrams/Moffett school of story design where they keep using new questions to keep you hooked until you realize there is no plan and the narrative collapses under its own weight
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May 31, 2023 18:50
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I've never read Homestuck but it basically paved to road to Undertale so that's cool
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May 31, 2023 19:09
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Phy posted:The third best thing to come out of homestuck: Ah yeah, Everett True is a good example of royalty. Though perhaps Militant Mary has reached a different form of transcendence  
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May 31, 2023 19:10
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I plunge through the ceiling in a shower of plaster and splinters, completely annihilating your coffee table upon landing flat on my face. slowly I raise my head to make eye contact and, through cracked and bleeding lips, speak words of utmost sincerity and direst import: "Vriska did nothing wrong"
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May 31, 2023 19:17
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I miss Pickle Inspector.
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May 31, 2023 19:21
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pickle inspector is in all of us, on the atomic level
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May 31, 2023 19:23
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homestuck was pretty dope, karkat was there
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May 31, 2023 19:35
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Schwarzwald posted:What I was referring to specifically is that there was (is?) a persistent rumor that Hideaki Anno wrote the conclusion to End of Eva as a mean hearted "take that!" against the fans.
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May 31, 2023 19:46
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JuniperCake posted:Looking forward to this comic returning from hiatus soon. Yeah it really can be easy to overlook, actually trying to put stuff together that isn't trash takes a lot of skill and effort, tbh
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May 31, 2023 19:56
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the main lame thing about Homestuck is that literally none of the stuff that "came out of homestuck" has had the slightest interest in building on the kind of formal experimentation it was attempting, and that was literally the only interesting thing about Homestuck. Take that away and what's left is a fixation on childhood and videogames and the videogames of one's childhood, which isn't "new sincerity" or whatever it's just millennials trying to crawl back into the womb again. KSBD isn't a response to some great nihilist cultural moment the world's walked away from, it's a very straightforward well-crafted action-fantasy comic that would've fit in comfortably with 2000AD or Conan stuff decades ago, and thankfully despite originating on Hussie's forum basically proceeds as though Homestuck et al. never existed.
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May 31, 2023 20:02
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Brought To You By posted:I've heard that rumor at a couple cons during panels but never seen it substantiated, EoE is by his own words closer to the intended ending of the series and I think it being a downer is more appropriate. Well, yeah, that's my whole point. A Wizard of Goatse posted:the main lame thing about Homestuck is that literally none of the stuff that "came out of homestuck" has had the slightest interest in building on the kind of formal experimentation it was attempting, and that was literally the only interesting thing about Homestuck. Take that away and what's left is a fixation on childhood and videogames and the videogames of one's childhood, which isn't "new sincerity" or whatever it's just millennials trying to crawl back into the womb again. KSBD isn't a response to some great nihilist cultural moment the world's walked away from, it's a very straightforward well-crafted action-fantasy comic that would've fit in comfortably with 2000AD or Conan stuff decades ago, and thankfully despite originating on Hussie's forum basically proceeds as though Homestuck et al. never existed. KSBD still has elements of that in its margins. I remember Yis-Voya! Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 20:31 on May 31, 2023 |
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May 31, 2023 20:29
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Schwarzwald posted:Well, yeah, that's my whole point. People don't read posts, yo.
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May 31, 2023 20:32
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Schwarzwald posted:What I was referring to specifically is that there was (is?) a persistent rumor that Hideaki Anno wrote the conclusion to End of Eva as a mean hearted "take that!" against the fans. iirc he was getting death threats over the series ending so idk I could kind of give him a pass for doing a petty middle finger in movie form.
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May 31, 2023 20:44
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EoE isn't even THAT much of a downer. It's apocalyptic but the express point of the ending is that as long as you're alive there's still the possibility of things getting better, whereas death (or an act of metaphysical surrender that might as well be death) forecloses all possibility.GunnerJ posted:iirc he was getting death threats over the series ending so idk I could kind of give him a pass for doing a petty middle finger in movie form. Yeah but the movie really isn't that. The infamous death threat is flashed on screen briefly during EoE, but it's alongside a mountain of other fan mail, most of it positive. On a more subjective level, the reflection and erasure of the live action audience in EoE isn't a "lmao i depicted myself as the chad ender of worlds and you as the soyjack pool of tang" moment -- it's not spiteful or triumphant, it's sad and unnerving. Not to mention Evangelion as a whole is basically asking you to empathize with and see the humanity of genuinely horrible people -- even Gendo's death isn't without pathos. The only time the show really shits on nerds is when it takes military fetishist otaku to task, and even then it's not "you're worthless, go die" but more "this is a childish phase that you will be ashamed of once you realize what it actually means." Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:03 on May 31, 2023 |
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May 31, 2023 21:00
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FlocksOfMice posted:i dunno i think a lot of homestuck is inextricable from its actual hatred for the people reading it. like i dont' think homestuck is an attack on fans, i think it's literally, thematically, an attack on the concept of storytelling and narratives and the enjoyment of the reader I appreciated reading this, thanks
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May 31, 2023 21:00
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That said,Phy posted:The third best thing to come out of homestuck: lmao
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May 31, 2023 21:01
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Schwarzwald posted:Well, yeah, that's my whole point GunnerJ posted:iirc he was getting death threats over the series ending so idk I could kind of give him a pass for doing a petty middle finger in movie form. https://wiki.evageeks.org/End_of_Evangelion_Death_Threats Like Tuxedo says most are positive mail as well.
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May 31, 2023 21:14
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I don't think Hussie was writing Homestuck with spite for his fanbase, but he definitely wasn't interested in telling a conventional story. He had good enough chops at character and setting writing to set up something that people wanted to read as a story anyway, and that was only ever going to end in disappointment. It'd be criminal to talk about things that came out of Homestuck without mentioning All Night Laundry. It's the best story out there to use that forum adventure format. Hell, it actually manages to be a time travel story that wraps up in a satisfying way.
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May 31, 2023 21:47
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Is Psycolonials or whatever its called worth playing?
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May 31, 2023 21:52
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Tenebrais posted:It'd be criminal to talk about things that came out of Homestuck without mentioning All Night Laundry. It's the best story out there to use that forum adventure format. Hell, it actually manages to be a time travel story that wraps up in a satisfying way. I second All Night Laundry, it's simply a great story and I love it.
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May 31, 2023 23:18
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FlocksOfMice posted:i dunno i think a lot of homestuck is inextricable from its actual hatred for the people reading it. like i dont' think homestuck is an attack on fans, i think it's literally, thematically, an attack on the concept of storytelling and narratives and the enjoyment of the reader if I did not enjoy a story I would simply stop reading it
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Jun 1, 2023 10:39
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Lt. Danger posted:if I did not enjoy a story I would simply stop reading it That's certainly what I did, stopped around the time the second set of kids was introduced.
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Jun 1, 2023 14:55
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Lt. Danger posted:if I did not enjoy a story I would simply stop reading it Coward.
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Jun 1, 2023 15:07
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Plus you would have missed the apotheosis of Homestuck: Pony Pals
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Jun 1, 2023 15:20
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Lt. Danger posted:if I did not enjoy a story I would simply stop reading it oh buddy you're on the wrong forum entirely
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Jun 1, 2023 15:32
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Bilirubin posted:Plus you would have missed the apotheosis of Homestuck: Pony Pals !!!!!!!!!! IMPORTANT POINT!!
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Lt. Danger posted:if I did not enjoy a story I would simply stop reading it that's why i Begemot posted:That's certainly what I did, stopped around the time the second set of kids was introduced. yeah. I first stopped during the troll arc and picked it back up years later. I started getting frustrated at all the subverted climaxes and when the new new set it kids showed up I gave up for good and everything I know past that is from friends Telling Me About Homestuck and skimming the ending for context
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Jun 1, 2023 17:40
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