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Liquid Communism posted:Almost like the rentier class are parasites making their profit off of others' work because they lack the drive to learn a skill! You're like those job postings requiring 10 years of experience in a 2 year old language. We are learning a skill even if you are too ideologically opposed to see it. When Stable Diffusion first dropped onto everyones lap, it was awful. The 1.4 model everyone started with was hot garbage and I loved it. I knew immediately the potential was limitless even if it would take ages to get there because I would personally drag the whole thing there by myself if I had to. It didn't matter my seven year old computer could barely run the thing and that training it further was far outside what I could personally do. What mattered was that I could create again and could share with the rest of the world how to thanks to it being open source and free for everyone. I was a tattoo artist for a dozen years, second generation, grew up in the family tattoo parlor. I've personally stabbed over 10,000 people. I've already done the long hard work of learning my art skills only to ruin myself physically and lose everything because healthcare in this country is a joke and I couldn't keep up with both of my parents medical bills. I lost everything after almost working myself to death, 120 hour work weeks will grind anyone down. So the skills are there but I can't do much with them, my arm is practically useless now. This was the same exact situation with Stable Diffusion when it first came out, the potential was there but it would take a tremendous amount to get something useful out of it. I gave some serious consideration to starting one of those internet challenges to highlight just this. It would have been re-learning how to draw with my feet instead. Knowing what looks good and works in a piece is far removed from the muscle memory of making it happen. Like learning how to ride a bicycle with an extra gear in the handlebar, the fact that it's doable is also far removed from why would you bother. Because I don't have any other choice. Anyone who can draw well with their hands would absolutely fail if they've never practiced specifically doing so with their feet. Myself included. Few would even be able to hold a pencil at the start let alone get a single line down. Yet none of that means they could never end up re-learning how to draw over the course of time. The idea was to do weekly check-ins to show how improvements happen OVER TIME. Much like I knew Stable Diffusion was going to keep improving, and it has, todays outputs are night and day over where it started because of a lot of hard work and people sharing the skills they have learned with each other. In the end I decided to just focus solely on SD because, honestly, I just don't want to deal with the feet people. Reagan gutted the arts, and this is a major course correction. For many people this is their first attempt at something that they should have been doing their entire lives... and you're just making GBS threads all over them. Stop. Take a look at what your actions are actually doing. Would you be so willing to put scare quotes around 'artist' for someone just learning how to oil paint? Have you gone and found people just starting and helped them in any way? How about throwing cash at a student artist so they have more time to spend on practicing? No one gets there overnight and here you are trying to make sure they never get there at all. Why? If you so hate this rentier class you should have no problems with taxing the poo poo out of them and taking your money back. $2,000 a month UBI would go a LONG way towards solving most of the problems here and 90%+ marginal rate taxes on automation is one of the best ways of getting there. My imagination was set on fire, it looks like your ego was instead. If this is worth another probation, so be it, I'll just spend the time updating the GBS AI Art thread OP. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 31, 2023 20:15
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Is there an AI art thread in the art forum?
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May 31, 2023 20:28
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Yes. It sees very little traffic, but the whole art forum is like that.
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May 31, 2023 20:29
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 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 31, 2023 20:42
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That Liquid Communism has a bad opinion isn’t a reason to gas the thread, you can ignore folks with bad takes who are calmest Hitlering in a given thread.
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May 31, 2023 21:17
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karthun posted:Why not? Is any expression of text a form of artistic expression? if so why not this one? Because ideas are a dime a dozen, and the least important part of artistic expression. Text absolutely can be a form of artistic expression, when it is used as an artistic medium, but holding up a search query for 'elf paladin character design blonde with sword' as equivalent to even someone without developed art skills' quick sketch is flatly absurd.
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May 31, 2023 21:33
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Liquid Communism posted:Because ideas are a dime a dozen, and the least important part of artistic expression. Text absolutely can be a form of artistic expression, when it is used as an artistic medium, but holding up a search query for 'elf paladin character design blonde with sword' as equivalent to even someone without developed art skills' quick sketch is flatly absurd. It seems like you think ai art is just "type something in" -> "get picture out" print it and ship it bingo bango. I admit I thought the same way as well. But if you look up videos of people's workflows you see it's really not like that. These people are still layering things together and compositing their art using whatever artistic principles they know. With this in-filling poo poo you can think "I want a tree here to balance out the scene" and you can get your ai generator to draw a tree there. It seems the only difference is that ai artists aren't browsing for stock images or drawing their own trees to compose into their scenes, but instead using another tool do to do it for them. But at the end of the day, they are still the ones composing the scene. If that doesn't qualify as doing art then idk man.
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May 31, 2023 21:50
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So you feel it's a collage style but one that obfuscates the original source of the material completely?
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May 31, 2023 22:28
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Yeah, in terms of "serious" work, current-gen AI tools are mostly good for doing poo poo like being a very "smart" heal tool, and doing things like turning a rough sketch and a ritualistic description into detail. That's not what most people seem to be using it for, though, which seems to be basically a technologically advanced form of doodling. Like most AI art threads (not just on SA but in general) seem to be full of people who get an idea they want to fiddle around with...ducks driving sports cars or farm animals with pancakes on their head or whatever the gently caress...and then post huge dumps of images on the theme. These seldom seem to be of much interest to anyone other than whoever came up with them, but, you know, whatever. I think the "hook" isn't "wow, this is suitable for hanging in a gallery" so much as "wow, I had this idea in my head and SD/MJ/whatever turned it into an image". At the current level of sophistication it's kinda like an extremely wonky holodeck or something. Like yeah holy poo poo it's a holodeck...only most of the time the quality is like a Saturday morning cartoon from the '70s. Like everything is recognisable, most of the time, but it's palpably kinda rough. Occasionally it's much better, but getting there is mostly just random luck. So there's a Hanna-Barbera holodeck element and there's a gacha game element. And for a population of people who might otherwise have no ability to produce anything better than mspaint stick figures this can be fuckin' magic.
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May 31, 2023 22:32
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SubG posted:Yeah, in terms of "serious" work, current-gen AI tools are mostly good for doing poo poo like being a very "smart" heal tool, and doing things like turning a rough sketch and a ritualistic description into detail. As someone who had always considered themselves mspaint stick figure tier I can say that playing around with bing image lead me to installing stable diffusion, which led to trying in-painting and then controlnet references, to suddenly downloading procreate and fully hand drawing some loving awesome landscapes by following a lesson on youtube. If you had told me three months ago that I’d be blowing an evening airbrushing a sunset glow into a cloudy sky painting using different layer blend modes and clipping masks I would’ve thought you were speaking a foreign language. That fuckin magic prompt tool unlocked an entire unknown side of me by lowering the barrier of entry enough to let me see that I actually enjoy creating art. Something that I grew up fearing because I suck at holding a real pencil or something. Don’t mean to Kramer into the thread and all, but this experience has put me pretty firmly on the side of the technology being a net positive. Locking out open source options through copy-write, which then allows only mega-corps with the capital to buy enough copy-written art to train a model seems super counterproductive just because this new art medium is different then prior ones.
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May 31, 2023 23:44
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SubG posted:Yeah, in terms of "serious" work, current-gen AI tools are mostly good for doing poo poo like being a very "smart" heal tool, and doing things like turning a rough sketch and a ritualistic description into detail. I think it's worth considering that probably most people in the world are doing actual doodling when they are doing traditional art anyway.
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Jun 1, 2023 07:08
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cat botherer posted:Regardless, I’m just stoked that AI can give me a Hieronymous Bosch extended universe. I think this work better for mural and murals with lots of details because the mural themselves where already a idea replicated N times. Where for things like a portrait is a disaster because all it achieve is destroy the composition. Boris Galerkin posted:How can anyone seriously look at one of these examples from the new photoshop ai fill thing and conclude “yep this is proof that ai generated art is all crap.” The uncreativiness of these expansions feels like walking around and then have 1 ton bricks falling on your head. Seriusly, is that bad. Is bad because a design is holistic. Meaning, each part is linked to all other parts in harmony. Is a team where each player do his goal. When you extend a picture this way and ignore composition rules, you are breaking these rules for nothing, theres no gain. And because they are purelly extending the picture withouth adding anything of interest. Its like getting the Las Vegas, and adding more desert around the desert of Las Vegas. Is horrible, is bad, is dumb, is lame. Is kinda cool, but need WAY MORE AI for it to be good. It need to teach AI composition, to teach AI to add novely elements, and for the AI to understand the original picture feelings so these novely elements added follow the same theme or generate the same feelings. Edit: Map of USA, but extended from Salt Lake City using a AI, so all of USA is a huge desert. 
Tei fucked around with this message at 07:43 on Jun 1, 2023 |
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Jun 1, 2023 07:25
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SubG posted:That's not what most people seem to be using it for, though, which seems to be basically a technologically advanced form of doodling. I dunno, that's just me. I'm sure there are people out there gleefully appreciating the gently caress out of every AI generated image they see. SpaceCadetBob posted:That fuckin magic prompt tool unlocked an entire unknown side of me by lowering the barrier of entry enough to let me see that I actually enjoy creating art. Something that I grew up fearing because I suck at holding a real pencil or something.
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Jun 1, 2023 07:56
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I'm having a lot of fun doing both. This whole discussion convinced me to buy a sketch pad and mechanical pencil a few months back, and just this last month I bought a cheap pen tablet as well. Following some free video guides on the fundamentals certainly helped, though I find more I keep running into the block if "I want to draw today, but there's nothing I want to draw today." Anyway, making a character sketch and feeding that into img2img is loads of fun as well.
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Jun 1, 2023 08:35
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As I see it most "artists"|"creative" types are plenty bland and mediocre without the help of AI, also no Idea why ppl. are hellbent on comparing pictures generated by some dude with Vermeer/Michelangelo's best and what it's supposed to prove. I do smell lots of fear of not measuring up to what is supposedly vastly inferior art though
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Jun 1, 2023 14:23
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Whenever I read the lesswrong description of what a superhuman AI would look like, I always think “hey, that sounds a lot like capitalism.” And then on here people say “the idea a superhuman entity could destroy us all is a sci-fi fantasy”, even though, well Take the game about the evil paperclips machine. Just before it turns everything into paperclips there’s a point where things get really good for humans, because the paperclips machine still needs us to survive. And all the humans go “hey, how can the paperclips machine be bad? We live in material abundance, just like the kings of yesteryear!” And then they all die, because of course they only do that while they are useful for producing paperclips. Except replace “paperclips” with “capital.” And, like If capital can make laws, change our thoughts, construct the world for itself – even if the humans that make up the processes want something completely different – aren’t we already in the crisis situation lesswrong describes? And nobody’s noticed because they’ll be opposed to at least one half of this argument? I’m not saying that “capitalism” is sentient, or plans ahead, or is anything more than a very powerful optimisation algorithm which optimises something confusing. But does that actually matter? If it is too big and powerful to be stopped by individuals, and co-opts individuals into fighting for its own interests, I don’t really see why it’s not the same category of threat as the ones all those lesswrong people are worried about? Except people who worry about AGI seem to believe humans are still in control right now, which I personally think is hard to justify? Also: a lot of the debate on AI capabilities in this thread is an exact mirror the ones on animal capabilities which biology’s had for years. Human uniqueness is something we will passionately defend, but in both cases I think a lot of the arguments are not really very convincing. The world where it actually is the case that a lot of the things we cherish most about ourselves are either not unique to us or not actually there in the first place— well, it’s a very depressing one. But my sense has tended to be that it’s also the one we live in. And I think it’s a viewpoint that can blind us to where things are happening at levels above that of individual humans? A lot of these issues make more sense to me if they’re seen in structural ways or materialist ones. But it seems to be the right-wing people on lesswrong who are more interested in that, not the left-wing ones on this dead leftist forum? That does not really make any sense to me, which is why I feel a bit confused by the discourse.
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Jun 1, 2023 14:35
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I think pretty much everyone here agrees "capitalism is the root of all the modern world's evils, and left unchecked will annihilate us all", but that's rather beyond the scope of the thread. There are already very active threads devoted to exactly that subject. A lot of us agree that human intelligence, consciousness, and sapience is entirely materialistic in nature and thus theoretically artificially reproducible in some fashion, but that stance tends to get confused with "therefore, currently deployed AI systems today either are or are becoming fully equivalent to human cognitive abilities," even though I think most of us agree the latter argument is nonsense for the foreseeable future.
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Jun 1, 2023 15:50
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vegetables posted:Also: a lot of the debate on AI capabilities in this thread is an exact mirror the ones on animal capabilities which biology’s had for years. Human uniqueness is something we will passionately defend, but in both cases I think a lot of the arguments are not really very convincing. The world where it actually is the case that a lot of the things we cherish most about ourselves are either not unique to us or not actually there in the first place— well, it’s a very depressing one. But my sense has tended to be that it’s also the one we live in. I firmly believe that there is nothing unique about humans that can't be copied or isn't replicated somewhere else already. Emotions, memory, cultures, societies, work, art, history and whatever else we think is human. That doesn't really depress me though, because it impresses on me the connection between ourselves and the world around us. If we were the only thing that could create in our way than the universe is empty anyway. Making machines that can replicate what we do is a display to ourselves of our how generic we are in a universal sense. We haven't done it yet, though current AI text and image programs are good imitators which brings the thought of humans not being unique to my mind. Tree Reformat posted:I think pretty much everyone here agrees "capitalism is the root of all the modern world's evils, and left unchecked will annihilate us all", but that's rather beyond the scope of the thread. There are already very active threads devoted to exactly that subject. I think a lot of this is just that we are in the nascent stages of this kind of technology. ChatGPT was the first impressive LLM that I've ever seen, and even though I know it makes mistakes, I still find it incredibly impressive. I don't know what the foreseeable future is and how fast breakthroughs will happen. Is it fusion where always almost there or is it really going to keep improving really quickly now? ChatGPT isn't conscious, but I'm not surprised when somebody thinks it is because it's such a good imitation of human speech. I am kind of annoyed when people won't except that it isn't, but I agree that most, if not all people in this thread don't think its conscious anyway so it's kind of a non-issue.
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Jun 1, 2023 18:28
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gurragadon posted:ChatGPT isn't conscious, but I'm not surprised when somebody thinks it is because it's such a good imitation of human speech. I am kind of annoyed when people won't except that it isn't, but I agree that most, if not all people in this thread don't think its conscious anyway so it's kind of a non-issue. Various people trying to make money on the tech are intentionally hyping it as if it is AGI, for a variety of reasons. The danger in that is a gullible management types deciding they can lay off their staff and replace them with empty promises.
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Jun 1, 2023 19:02
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Sorry I meant it was a non-issue in the thread of people thinking ChatGPT is AGI. I agree that people losing there jobs because of misinformation or overuse of new AI technologies is a major issue, it's probably the most immediate issue with AI.
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Jun 1, 2023 19:05
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SpaceCadetBob posted:As someone who had always considered themselves mspaint stick figure tier I can say that playing around with bing image lead me to installing stable diffusion, which led to trying in-painting and then controlnet references, to suddenly downloading procreate and fully hand drawing some loving awesome landscapes by following a lesson on youtube. Instead, you let megacorps run off with folk's work without a by your leave so you can have it for a tiny fraction of what it's worth? A base model is always big org level stuff, the stuff you're tuning. It was always going to be a big company game (don't give me that open source stuff, it was still a massively expensive corporate product). Sorry, the right of folks to make a living and not have their work used against them for free must come before that. If the megacorp can't get enough folks to pay, then bully for them, StratGoatCom fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Jun 1, 2023 |
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Jun 1, 2023 19:37
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Have you come up with a proposal that lets people "make a living", yet? Or still sticking to the ones that will actively harm artists and make things worse for everyone those same megacorps?
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Jun 1, 2023 19:41
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GlyphGryph posted:Have you come up with a proposal that lets people "make a living", yet? Or still sticking to the ones that will actively harm artists and make things worse for everyone those same megacorps? The bare minimum is making the AI corps follow the law.
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Jun 1, 2023 19:42
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 https://twitter.com/ArmandDoma/status/1664331870564147200 quote:The Terminator : In three years, Cyberdyne will become the largest supplier of military computer systems. All stealth bombers are upgraded with Cyberdyne computers, becoming fully unmanned. Afterwards, they fly with a perfect operational record. The Skynet Funding Bill is passed. The system goes online August 4th, 1997. Human decisions are removed from strategic defense. Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. In a panic, they try to pull the plug.
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Jun 2, 2023 01:28
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gurragadon posted:I think a lot of this is just that we are in the nascent stages of this kind of technology. ChatGPT was the first impressive LLM that I've ever seen, and even though I know it makes mistakes, I still find it incredibly impressive. I don't know what the foreseeable future is and how fast breakthroughs will happen. Is it fusion where always almost there or is it really going to keep improving really quickly now? Deeply unlikely. ChatGPT isn't really that much of a breakthrough algorithm-wise, they just threw a massive pile of gear at it. Getting it to behave as well as it does now takes millions of dollars of hardware, and ongoing power/cooling investments to run it. MS talked about what they threw behind OpenAI earlier this year: https://www.networkworld.com/article/3691289/microsoft-details-its-chatgpt-hardware-investments.html $1bn in 2019 to get here, with another $10bn this year. The hardware involved is reported as Azure supercompute, running on tens of thousands of NVIDIA A100 GPUs quoted at $10k each. That's not particularly scalable unless you're a megacorporation.
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Jun 2, 2023 01:39
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Sure, with OpenAI, because they have the hardware and money to throw at it but on the open source side we've, within just months, reduced the requirements to a fraction (maybe an 1/8th or so) of what they were for both inference and finetuning and created more efficient models that perform like models twice their size but require much weaker hardware to run. ChatGPT is a kind of milestone, but OpenAI aren't the only ones reaching milestones.
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Jun 2, 2023 01:55
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Liquid Communism posted:Deeply unlikely. That does seem to be where it is going, but I am curious how many more improvements can be made. That article said NVIDIA is now specifically designing chips for AI purposes, so that is gonna drop prices. I'm not sure how much 10 billion really means to Microsoft but it's always the megacorps on the cutting edge. NVIDIA must be loving this though, they just hit 1 trillion market cap yesterday. quote:“There’s a war going on out there in AI, and Nvidia today is the only arms dealer out there. So as a result we’re seeing this huge jump in revenues,” Raymond James managing director Srini Pajjuri recently said in a note to investors.
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Jun 2, 2023 02:32
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BrainDance posted:Sure, with OpenAI, because they have the hardware and money to throw at it but on the open source side we've, within just months, reduced the requirements to a fraction (maybe an 1/8th or so) of what they were for both inference and finetuning and created more efficient models that perform like models twice their size but require much weaker hardware to run. Yes, that is the 'baked' product, but what did it take to make, oh, and by the way, that scraping bullshit is why every API price is getting spiked, so they've already destroyed the social contract of the net.
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Jun 2, 2023 02:50
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StratGoatCom posted:Yes, that is the 'baked' product, but what did it take to make, oh, and by the way, that scraping bullshit is why every API price is getting spiked, so they've already destroyed the social contract of the net. I have no idea what you're getting at, what did it take to make major optimizations to run LLMs that match GPT 3.5 on consumer hardware? A bunch of dedicated nerds who really wanted to fit some of these models on a single GPU I guess. What did it take to make the models that are close to matching ChatGPT? A strong foundation model and Stanford to show us all how to do it with this Who's raising their API price? I'm actually not sure. I only know twitter and reddit are which, well, sorry your reddit app wont for you anymore man but yeah, what a crime against humanity. BrainDance fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Jun 2, 2023 |
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Jun 2, 2023 03:11
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BrainDance posted:I have no idea what you're getting at, what did it take to make major optimizations to run LLMs that match GPT 3.5 on consumer hardware? A bunch of dedicated nerds who really wanted to fit some of these models on a single GPU I guess. What did it take to train the thing? You're dealing with a finished product, and the basic model took a far more powerful system to create then the finished good they hand out to you.
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Jun 2, 2023 03:14
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StratGoatCom posted:What did it take to train the thing? You're dealing with a finished product, and the basic model took a far more powerful system to create then the finished good they hand out to you. Do you think people are out there creating millions of foundation models every day? Yes it takes a lot of computing power to train the one foundation model you have to do one time (but even that is decreasing.) The thing that happens just occasionally and is, still, a fraction of what it takes to run ChatGPT every day for everyone. You do not have to build a reactor every time you train a foundation model. Wait until you hear about how much water it uses to manufacture semiconductors. What the hell are you doing with a computer? And they dont have to do that just a handful of times, they just keep at it.
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Jun 2, 2023 03:26
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BrainDance posted:Do you think people are out there creating millions of foundation models every day? The point is that these things are innately and inescapably megacorporate products and that the liberatory rhetoric is utterly empty, given precisely how they are made and what they are for.
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Jun 2, 2023 03:28
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StratGoatCom posted:The point is that these things are innately and inescapably megacorporate products and that the liberatory rhetoric is utterly empty, given precisely how they are made and what they are for. Most of the foundation models I've used were trained by EleutherAI, which is an open source non-profit so, no. Yeah, the big one right now is Meta's, for now, but this never stays the same for long. There are other ones in the pipeline and no, they're not all from megacorporations.
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Jun 2, 2023 03:37
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BrainDance posted:Most of the foundation models I've used were trained by EleutherAI, which is an open source non-profit so, no. They are still very much a product of big iron that exists to displace the owners of the ip that was put in. And like all of these outfits, the 'not-for-profit' status is mainly a fig leaf over who gives them their money.
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Jun 2, 2023 03:43
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StratGoatCom posted:They are still very much a product of big iron that exists to displace the owners of the ip that was put in. And like all of these outfits, the 'not-for-profit' status is mainly a fig leaf over who gives them their money. Oh ok, so you mean you've created a situation where, no matter what, your conclusion is always right because you can just keep changing what the argument is. Got it. Be real, you literally just heard about EleutherAI for the first time in your life, and probably have no clue what's going on in the open source AI world. But you got your conclusion anyway.
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Jun 2, 2023 03:47
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BrainDance posted:Oh ok, so you mean you've created a situation where, no matter what, your conclusion is always right because you can just keep changing what the argument is. Got it. https://techcrunch.com/2023/03/02/stability-ai-hugging-face-and-canva-back-new-ai-research-nonprofit/ Literally within minutes. A core aspect of these AI IP tumbling operations, whether this or LAION and Stability is these greasy 'nonprofits' that basically are being deployed as a way to both launder reputation and slow the recognition of what is being done, as well as getting free labour for outfits drawing massive investments I may add.
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Jun 2, 2023 03:51
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StratGoatCom posted:https://techcrunch.com/2023/03/02/stability-ai-hugging-face-and-canva-back-new-ai-research-nonprofit/
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Jun 2, 2023 03:56
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SubG posted:What exactly are you alleging here, and what's your evidence for it? That they're mixed in doing free labor and sanitization of a not-kosher use of IP, much like LAION.
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Jun 2, 2023 04:05
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StratGoatCom posted:https://techcrunch.com/2023/03/02/stability-ai-hugging-face-and-canva-back-new-ai-research-nonprofit/ Yeah, I know, that's how much time you spent googling this thing you'd never heard of before. StratGoatCom posted:A core aspect of these AI IP tumbling operations, whether this or LAION and Stability is these greasy 'nonprofits' that basically are being deployed as a way to both launder reputation and slow the recognition of what is being done, as well as getting free labour for outfits drawing massive investments I may add. Cool that you identified a "core aspect" of them "within minutes" EleutherAI hasn't done much of anything that I think anyone's gonna find a problem with except for the problems anti-AI people have with all AI just in general. If you wanna say "this organization I know nothing about is gonna do bad things in the future", well, I can't tell you what's in the future. But it doesn't seem like you got a lot of evidence for it. Did you know Microsoft actually contributes to Linux?! The whole FSF is tainted unless they really get working on Hurd! If it's all secret shell games then, cool, I hope that means I get my followup to GPT-NeoX soon. BrainDance fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Jun 2, 2023 |
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Jun 2, 2023 04:05
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BrainDance posted:Yeah, I know, that's how much time you spent googling this thing you'd never heard of before. I've known about the incestious relationship of LAION and Stability for a while. This is more of the same. And that many of these big companies have relationships with these notprofits of that kind isn't exactly new neither. StratGoatCom fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Jun 2, 2023 |
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Jun 2, 2023 04:09
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