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What is the most powerful flying bug? This poll is closed. |
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| 🦋 |
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15 | 3.71% |
| 🦇 |
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115 | 28.47% |
| 🪰 |
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12 | 2.97% |
| 🐦 |
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67 | 16.58% |
| dragonfly |
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94 | 23.27% |
| 🦟 |
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14 | 3.47% |
| 🐝 |
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87 | 21.53% |
| Total: | 404 votes | ||
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Well if NATO send troops then China is likely to sell Russia artillery shells and drones. Better to fight F35 over Ukraine than to fight them over Taipei.
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Jun 8, 2023 03:29
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Polish soldiers have been reported fighting in Ukraine for, I dunno, more than half a year? Maybe close to a year?
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Jun 8, 2023 03:35
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/\ that's different than them being sent there by the state.stephenthinkpad posted:Why don't they just let Poland and maybe a couple other countries send troops to Ukraine themselves? Outside of the NATO frame work? Is it not allowed? US has defense treaty with Japan and it has nothing to do with NATO. What happens when Russia strikes Polish territory? Does it trigger article 5?
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Jun 8, 2023 03:36
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that is indeed the entire point of article 5 it is an anti Russian alliance
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Jun 8, 2023 03:39
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White House says its providing Ukraine with F-16 fighter jets ‘not to escalate, but protect’
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Jun 8, 2023 03:43
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NATO? the defensive alliance?
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Jun 8, 2023 03:43
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euphronius posted:that is indeed the entire point of article 5 Now hold on wait just a minute It's also an anti china alliance
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Jun 8, 2023 03:59
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Weka posted:What happens when Russia strikes Polish territory? Does it trigger article 5? Poland can say that it does, and then it's up to the other NATO member governments to decide what "mutual defense" means in that situation. Given that the alliance operates by consensus, I imagine it would mean very little. \/\/\/yup\/\/\/ Majorian has issued a correction as of 04:05 on Jun 8, 2023 |
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Jun 8, 2023 04:02
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Majorian posted:Poland can say that it does, and then it's up to the other NATO member governments to decide what "mutual defense" means in that situation. spoiler alert, it means they will ship more missiles and air defenses to Poland
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Jun 8, 2023 04:02
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Poland keeps throwing money around buying up new weapons, so I'm sure everyone will be happy with that turn of events.
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Jun 8, 2023 04:06
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i don't think nato is dumb enough to send troops into ukraine
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Jun 8, 2023 04:07
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grayzone in the house QUESTION: Hey, thanks. Liam Cosgrove with The Grayzone. I just want to get your response to a recent article by Columbia University professor Jeffrey Sachs at the end of May. He’s challenging this notion that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine was completely unprovoked, which is a common Biden administration kind of talking point, and I’ll just summarize his argument so you can respond. He says, quote, “the National Archives show irrefutably that the U.S. and German governments repeatedly promised Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev that NATO would not move one inch eastward when the Soviet Union disbanded,” and then, obviously, several administrations broke that promise. But Biden administration started bringing it up to their doorstep when in September 2021 they released a statement that we’re working with Ukraine to bring them into NATO. We provided Ukraine with weapons and did joint military operations with NATO and Ukrainian forces. So the standard response is always kind of, well, it’s a voluntary organization and it’s kind of up to each nation whether they want to join, and the U.S. is kind of hands-off, but — MR PATEL: Which is true. It is a collective Alliance and it is an Alliance decision under the auspices of the open door policy to determine its membership. It’s not a U.S. decision alone. But continue. QUESTION: Okay, yeah – Sachs’s kind of illustration of why he disagrees with that is he points to an internal memo from William Burns, who’s now the CIA director, but at the time during the Bush administration he was the ambassador to Russia, and he’s talking with Condoleezza Rice, secretary of state, and he says I’m speaking to Russian officials here and experts and they’re really concerned about this NATO push, that it’s stoking specifically in Ukraine a strong civil divide between the west and the ethnic Russians in the east, and that Russia’s concerned it’s going to spark a literal civil war. And then I’m quoting William Burns here, “Russia would have to decide whether to intervene, a decision Russia does not want to have to face.” So from William Burns’ perspective, Russia did not want this war, but it was our policies that were kind of evoking this response from them. And that turned out to be exactly what happened when under Poroshenko for almost a decade there was this civil war in the east, and we were kind of backing on the side of Poroshenko. So ‑‑ MR PATEL: So I just — QUESTION: Yeah, how would you — MR PATEL: I just take issue with this entire characterization. There is – this invasion, these unjust, unlawful, illegal acts that we’re seeing the Russian Federation undertake, there is no reason to make attempt to erase the borders of a neighboring country, and that’s what we’re seeing. And what we’re – continue to see is the Russian Federation unleash strikes, missiles, on civilians, on Kyiv, on energy infrastructure, on civilian infrastructure. So there is absolutely no policy, nothing that has been undertaken by the United States – or Ukraine, for that matter ‑‑ that would justify or sanction these kinds of actions as acceptable. And that is why we will continue to support our Ukrainian partners. You’ve seen us continue to do so, and we’ll continue to hold the Russian Federation accountable as well. QUESTION: And so just to clarify, Sachs was not saying it was justified, he was just saying that the U.S. did play a role in provoking it. But – how — MR PATEL: Again, I would take issue with that as well. The U.S. did nothing, and neither did Ukraine, to provoke or encourage or incite these kinds of actions. QUESTION: Well – and I know this is a hypothetical, so – but if you think of – if the hand were on the other foot – or the glove were on the other hand – and Mexico was trying to enter an alliance that historically has a precedence for establishing Russian military bases on it – if Mexico was going to get a Russian military base installed on it – our reaction to that would probably be like, “No way. No way in hell is that going to fly.” So it’s – I know it’s a hypothetical, but it’s a pretty simple one that I think most people can grasp. MR PATEL: It certainly is a hypothetical, and I feel fairly on confident ground to say that any potential U.S. action in this hypothetical scenario certainly wouldn’t involve the infringement on another country’s sovereignty and territorial integrity and attempts to erase its borders off the map. So certainly — QUESTION: So the U.S. would not – not intervene in that case? MR PATEL: Certainly – certainly appreciate this international relationships 101 that we have going on, but I’m going to work the room a little bit. QUESTION: Well, hold on, Vedant, because it isn’t a hypothetical. It actually happened once, right, with Cuba, and you did take action and you did intervene. So let’s not say that this is completely made up and out of the blue. I mean, yes, Mexico is a hypothetical, but it’s historical fact what happened during the Cuban Missile Crisis, right? MR PATEL: I’m not disputing historical fact, Matt. I think what we’re talking about is — QUESTION: Okay. Don’t just say that it’s – that it’s a hypothetical and blow the question off because you don’t find it comfortable, but to answer — MR PATEL: That’s not — QUESTION: I mean, whether or not the argument that he’s representing from Dr. Sachs or whoever it is is accurate or whether you agree with it or not, I mean, it’s not just made up out of whole cloth. MR PATEL: I’m certainly not saying it’s made up. What I am saying is that there is no justification for attempts to erase another country’s borders, which is certainly not what even – again, you know I don’t like getting into AP U.S. history from up here, but it is also not what transpired during the Cuban Missile Crisis, either. QUESTION: I’m assuming you mean advanced placement U.S. history and not Associated Press — MR PATEL: (Laughter.) No, no, no. Well, I guess in this case it could work both ways. You’ve had your hand up patiently in the back. Go ahead. mawarannahr has issued a correction as of 04:27 on Jun 8, 2023 |
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Jun 8, 2023 04:08
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CODChimera posted:NATO? the defensive alliance?
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Jun 8, 2023 04:15
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yellowcar posted:i starting a world destroying war with russia is part of NATO's DNA
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Jun 8, 2023 04:16
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bedpan posted:starting a world destroying war with russia is part of NATO's DNA Nah, if that were the case the alliance's member-states wouldn't decide by consensus. It's hard to force an alliance into nuclear armageddon when all of its governments need to agree to do it. Its purpose has always been to consolidate and expand the American empire.
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Jun 8, 2023 04:24
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I don't see how Poland can send troops to Ukraine considering they share a land border with Russia. Are they going to invade Kaliningrad too? If NATO does send anyone I think it'd be an small force in an "international brigade" nominally under direct control of the Ukrainian military.
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Jun 8, 2023 04:24
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Stoltenberg Chuckled. “You mean the Defensive Emeralds?”
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Jun 8, 2023 04:34
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Lostconfused posted:Poland keeps throwing money around buying up new weapons, so I'm sure everyone will be happy with that turn of events. Have they actually received anything they've bought
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Jun 8, 2023 04:57
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5ktTnhMCjU
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Jun 8, 2023 05:28
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Jun 8, 2023 05:30
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why would chesa putler do this
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Jun 8, 2023 05:31
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bedpan posted:starting a world destroying war with russia is part of NATO's DNA for one thing, it's just one guy who's an adviser to zelensky saying it and a ukrainian propaganda outlet parroting it presumably this is out of desperation and wishful thinking because the counteroffensive isn't going so well rn
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Jun 8, 2023 05:38
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yellowcar posted:for one thing, it's just one guy who's an adviser to zelensky saying it and a ukrainian propaganda outlet parroting it really? i get the impression its going really well. lots of great speeches and scenes from movies being posted
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Jun 8, 2023 05:54
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Yeah you can tell it is going well because no one else has come into the thread to help me discipline you tankies, they are all too busy cheering, while I fight the real war alone…
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Jun 8, 2023 06:02
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CODChimera posted:NATO? the defensive alliance? You will stand with our defensive alliance, bow or be destroyed!
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Jun 8, 2023 06:03
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So what actual evidence is there of the dastardly Ukrainians/perfidious Russians blowing up the dam? So far all I’ve seen either way is past statements from both the Russians and Ukrainians , where both have accused the other many times of planning to blow up a dam “any day now” for a while, and both accusing the other of making the prior statements as cover for an inevitable false flag attack “any day now”. At most I guess it doesn’t make sense from my view for the Ukrainians to do it because why would you turn the area your trying to advance through into an impassable swamp? Could it not have literally just been a freak accident on a dam that’s probably not been maintained in years?
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Jun 8, 2023 06:21
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Turtle Watch posted:Yeah you can tell it is going well because no one else has come into the thread to help me discipline you tankies, they are all too busy cheering, while I fight the real war alone… not the heroes we need, but the ones we deserve o7
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Jun 8, 2023 06:22
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galagazombie posted:So what actual evidence is there of the dastardly Ukrainians/perfidious Russians blowing up the dam? So far all I’ve seen either way is past statements from both the Russians and Ukrainians , where both have accused the other many times of planning to blow up a dam “any day now” for a while, and both accusing the other of making the prior statements as cover for an inevitable false flag attack “any day now”. At most I guess it doesn’t make sense from my view for the Ukrainians to do it because why would you turn the area your trying to advance through into an impassable swamp? Could it not have literally just been a freak accident on a dam that’s probably not been maintained in years? The Ukrainians have still not throttled the flow coming through upstream dams they control The counter offensive began literally the next day They have repeatedly said they would like to destroy it
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Jun 8, 2023 06:36
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drat, that almost makes me respect turtle watch enough to read his posts almost
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Jun 8, 2023 06:36
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galagazombie posted:So what actual evidence is there of the dastardly Ukrainians/perfidious Russians blowing up the dam? So far all I’ve seen either way is past statements from both the Russians and Ukrainians , where both have accused the other many times of planning to blow up a dam “any day now” for a while, and both accusing the other of making the prior statements as cover for an inevitable false flag attack “any day now”. At most I guess it doesn’t make sense from my view for the Ukrainians to do it because why would you turn the area your trying to advance through into an impassable swamp? Could it not have literally just been a freak accident on a dam that’s probably not been maintained in years? the russians have nothing to gain from blowing up the dam strategically, politically, or materially the ukrainians can cause a water supply crisis in crimea, and the worst of the flooding would be on the russian controlled side of the dnieper also this wouldn't be the first time ukraine has tried to blow up this particular dam it's a hell of a gamble that's for sure
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Jun 8, 2023 06:36
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Slavvy posted:Powerful tsarist Russia vibes probably can buy a dozen for $1000 on alibaba right now
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Jun 8, 2023 06:37
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Slavvy posted:The Ukrainians have still not throttled the flow coming through upstream dams they control (crashes through wall wearing NATO uniform, holding a cocktail in one hand) All this sounds highly circumstantial and very unlikely. The bartender put some vodka in my expresso martini so therefore all signs are definitely pointing towards Russia.
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Jun 8, 2023 06:39
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galagazombie posted:So what actual evidence is there of the dastardly Ukrainians/perfidious Russians blowing up the dam? So far all I’ve seen either way is past statements from both the Russians and Ukrainians , where both have accused the other many times of planning to blow up a dam “any day now” for a while, and both accusing the other of making the prior statements as cover for an inevitable false flag attack “any day now”. At most I guess it doesn’t make sense from my view for the Ukrainians to do it because why would you turn the area your trying to advance through into an impassable swamp? Could it not have literally just been a freak accident on a dam that’s probably not been maintained in years? theres no evidence either way but pointing this out means ur working for putin so its a tough one
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Jun 8, 2023 06:41
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Great news for Ukraine - It has the unequivocal attention of the World Bank. https://www.reuters.com/article/ukraine-crisis-dam-worldbank-idAFL1N37Z3EI World Bank to conduct rapid assessment of damages after destruction of Ukraine dam JUNE 8, 20236:55 AM WASHINGTON, June 7 (Reuters) - The World Bank will support Ukraine by conducting a rapid assessment of damages and needs after the destruction of a huge hydroelectric dam on front lines between Russian and Ukrainian forces, a top bank official said on Wednesday, Anna Bjerde, the World Bank’s managing director for operations, in a tweet said the destruction of the Novo Kakhovka dam had “many very serious consequences for essential service delivery and the broader environment.” Ukrainian Prime Minister Denys Shmyhal, also writing on Twitter, said he spoke with Bjerde about the impact of the dam’s collapse, and she assured him the World Bank would carry out a rapid assessment of the damages and needs.
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Jun 8, 2023 06:51
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Jel Shaker posted:probably can buy a dozen for $1000 on alibaba right now It costs 200 grand lmao
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Jun 8, 2023 06:55
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galagazombie posted:So what actual evidence is there of the dastardly Ukrainians/perfidious Russians blowing up the dam? So far all I’ve seen either way is past statements from both the Russians and Ukrainians , where both have accused the other many times of planning to blow up a dam “any day now” for a while, and both accusing the other of making the prior statements as cover for an inevitable false flag attack “any day now”. At most I guess it doesn’t make sense from my view for the Ukrainians to do it because why would you turn the area your trying to advance through into an impassable swamp? Could it not have literally just been a freak accident on a dam that’s probably not been maintained in years? there's no specific evidence. most of the circumstantial evidence relies on dams being generally quite robust structures, and soviet architecture in particular placing great emphasis on making solid stuff - so it falling over at the time where ukraine seems to be throwing around its new toys is highly suspicious. the thing is, it doesn't make an awful lot of sense for either side to intentionally destroy the dam (though marginally more for ukraine than russia, as they get another outraged news cycle out of it and remove a strategic asset from russian hands) - there's a lot of downside and not an awful lot of upside. this calculus was different when the russians still had significant forces on the right bank, and at that time the ukrainians were indeed attacking the dam, possibly causing damage which could've caused this - but why was this damage not repaired? it's not as though there is no institutional knowledge of such dams in russia. at worst they probably could've worked out some provisional deal. what i think is most likely here is that the ukrainian strikes weakened the dam more than anticipated and that the russians never really assessed the damage. with the increased amount of water in the reservoir, some relatively minor fault caused the pressure to become too much for the weakened structure, and it cracked. one thing i sincerely doubt is that the russians were intentionally blowing up their own asset. that would only make any kind of sense if they thought it was necessary to defeat some ongoing attack, which doesn't seem to be what's happening
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Jun 8, 2023 06:56
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euphronius posted:that is indeed the entire point of article 5 Article 5 relies on self defence. galagazombie posted:So what actual evidence is there of the dastardly Ukrainians/perfidious Russians blowing up the dam? So far all I’ve seen either way is past statements from both the Russians and Ukrainians , where both have accused the other many times of planning to blow up a dam “any day now” for a while, and both accusing the other of making the prior statements as cover for an inevitable false flag attack “any day now”. At most I guess it doesn’t make sense from my view for the Ukrainians to do it because why would you turn the area your trying to advance through into an impassable swamp? Could it not have literally just been a freak accident on a dam that’s probably not been maintained in years? Ukraine is not attempting to advance in the area because there is a large river in the way. BrotherJayne posted:drat, that almost makes me respect turtle watch enough to read his posts Tread carefully, turtle watch is under my protection.
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Jun 8, 2023 06:59
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Jel Shaker posted:probably can buy a dozen for $1000 on alibaba right now DJI Tello is a similar size and works off a cellphone. I bet if you gave it fancy carbon fibre props it would be quiet as well. Costs £80
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Jun 8, 2023 07:00
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If Ukraine blew up the dam it was a brilliant move planned in perfect coordination with the counter offensive that wrong-footed the Russian forces in the area and created a logistical crisis in the rear of Russian lines if Russia blew up the dam it was a despicable act of ecocide and a war crime, maybe the worst one yet
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Jun 8, 2023 07:03
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Speng, i know you just changed the thread title, butFirstnameLastname posted:just livin slava vida loca
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Jun 8, 2023 07:06
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