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the subtext with rey is that this is what anakin would have been like without moral guidance from his mother, but instead of being indoctrinated into an obvious cult (the jedi), she gets 'adopted' by leia into a much less obvious cult (the resistance). (by contrast, luke joins a rebellion that he was already interested in and is thoroughly disillusioned by it off-screen between the first and second movie.) the 'twist' is that rather than being turned from a well-meaning but easily manipulated kid into a severely hosed up guy between two movies, rey was already a temporarily embarrassed princess waiting for her royal family to take her back, with all the massive character flaws that accompany that mindset. that's why her name is rey. the issue is that tfa is really bad at character writing, so rey beats the poo poo out of finn upon first seeing him and then they become friends fifteen seconds later. finn actually gets it worse, remarkably, but there's still a lot of glossing over her character so that the movie can suck off a guy who owned a space truck one time. the retcon that she was a palpatine the whole time is weird because it 'makes sense' - palpatine is the figurative father of both anakin and padme regardless of what some comic book implies about their literal relationship - but it completely obliterates the part where her relationship with leia is what's important. leia being a total non-character in the movie where this retcon happens makes it even more incoherent. ungulateman fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Jun 9, 2023 |
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Jun 9, 2023 02:54
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I get the feeling that Palpatine is purposefully sending Vader out to get the poo poo kicked out of him at least twice a year so that spends the majority of his time floating in bacta. If you think about it, besides the amputations and lung damage, Vader’s got like 20 years worth of broken ribs and concussions by ESB.
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Jun 9, 2023 02:55
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Marsupial Ape posted:I get the feeling that Palpatine is purposefully sending Vader out to get the poo poo kicked out of him at least twice a year so that spends the majority of his time floating in bacta. If you think about it, besides the amputations and lung damage, Vader’s got like 20 years worth of broken ribs and concussions by ESB. Hard to plan a coup when everyone you knew fuckin hates you and continually kicks your rear end. Finding Luke was like hitting the lottery since he could pull the whole Dad card out. Yeah sure I murdered a bunch of your friends but hey, I’m your pops. What’s say we have a little catch? *whips a power pylon at you*
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Jun 9, 2023 04:21
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I so wish the sequel trilogy could be undone, it's just irredeemable trash with zero merit, and no one will ever be able to convince me otherwise.
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Jun 9, 2023 04:32
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I said come in! posted:I so wish the sequel trilogy could be undone, it's just irredeemable trash with zero merit, and no one will ever be able to convince me otherwise. To be fair, I think so does Disney, given there's like zero interquel stories (to my knowledge). Just shows set before, and a movie set WELL after, to quarantine it. Honestly if they just called do-over and announced a new movie numbered episode 7 I don't think anyone would even complain.
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Jun 9, 2023 04:38
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Neddy Seagoon posted:To be fair, I think so does Disney, given there's like zero interquel stories (to my knowledge). Just shows set before, and a movie set WELL after, to quarantine it. The Mandalorian is kinda setting up a connection to the sequels, but otherwise you're right.
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Jun 9, 2023 05:47
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Star wars resistance exists
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Jun 9, 2023 12:59
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The comics have dipped into it too but the problem is that unlike the prequels there isn't an interesting hook to work with.
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Jun 9, 2023 13:08
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Dexo posted:Star wars resistance exists Resistance is ok but it only had one movie to work with and didn’t really start getting decent until the end (and that applies to both seasons)
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Jun 9, 2023 14:47
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Resistance getting axed just as the ST gave them a year to play around with and do SOMETHING with the setting was such a waste Like, thank you D+ for giving us out first taste of live-action Star Wars TV and all, but you killed a budding show in the process
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Jun 9, 2023 15:22
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Darko posted:
Also isn't this, like, literally a week after she even found out that that crazy space legend "The Force" is real?
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Jun 9, 2023 16:28
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Sash! posted:Also isn't this, like, literally a week after she even found out that that crazy space legend "The Force" is real? this is at the end of TLJ, so no.
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Jun 9, 2023 17:11
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Dexo posted:this is at the end of TLJ, so no. Yeah it is. TFA and TLJ happen over the course of a couple days, at most like a couple weeks (the two movies overlap, the non-Rey plot at the start of TLJ is happening during the Rey plot at the end of TFA).
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Jun 9, 2023 17:25
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Dexo posted:this is at the end of TLJ, so no. The end of TLJ which takes place over a few days and leads directly on from TFA, which also takes a few days at most
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Jun 9, 2023 17:40
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LividLiquid posted:Prior to the third movie, she inadvertently used a force power or two, floated some rocks, and used a laser sword that literally anybody else can also use. She held her own in duels with Kylo Ren twice - first movie he was injured sure but the second movie no. Rey being super powerful has never particularly bothered me as there's hundreds of other reasons to dislike the sequel, but there's pretty clearly big differences between Luke and her's journey. Acknowledging those differences doesn't make you a misogynist, just someone who can recognise inconsistent and lovely writing (which is absolutely rife in the sequels, so it shouldn't be controversial that Rey's story is also garbage) where the protagonist has precisely as much power as they need to in service of moving the plot forward, rather than the plot being in service of her growth as a character.
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Jun 9, 2023 17:46
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Butterfly Valley posted:Acknowledging those differences doesn't make you a misogynist, I'm not talking to you, then. It's really that simple. When I say that the grander discussion tilts toward Rey being a mary sue and that this is the result of misogyny, I am not saying anybody who doesn't care for Rey or would've preferred to see her have a journey that mirror's Luke's is a misogyn*ist*. It's like the Bechdel-Wallace test. A lot of people seem to think that its thrust is to determine whether a movie is good or bad for having passed it or not, when what it's actually for is to demonstrate just how few movies pass it in any given year. It's a condemnation of overall trends; not a specific movie. Moon doesn't suck because there aren't two women in it who talk about something other than a man. Arguably it's stronger for it. (Though it is a hard watch now because of Gerdy. Yikes.) So, any individual can dislike Rey because her journey didn't connect with them. That's fine. But a lot of misogynists have disseminated arguments through the fan-o-sphere that are very much rooted in that viewpoint, and it's folly to ignore that. But another big missing piece here is that, and I've said this before here, but it bears repeating, Star Wars is also for children. Star Wars is mostly for children. An awful lot of little girls loving *adore* Rey, and will grow up with 7 through 9 as their Star Wars trilogy. And forty-year-old men wanting to unexist that trilogy, entirely missing that it was in no way just for them (or just being angry that they're no longer the target audience) really need to step back and understand that this series was never for one kind of person, and not everything in it is going to resonate with them, and they can just wait ten minutes for a different Star War that does.
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Jun 9, 2023 19:43
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Rey being uber skilled, works better within the time frame with her being both Palaptine's granddaughter and one half a dyad. Essentially it sounds like she and Ben were another vergence in the Force ala Anakin, just between two connected people this time. So she was able to more easily glom off additional stat buffs thanks to being connected to Ben. It's not a great explanation, but that's what seems to exist with the text of that trilogy. So yeah, she is very powerful, and I think they could have written out it in a better way had she been "no one", but they decided to just take a lazy way out. The dyad is an interesting concept that I could see playing some part in the Dawn of the Jedi movie, but they really didn't do much with it in the ST. Teek fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Jun 9, 2023 |
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Jun 9, 2023 19:53
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"Rey is a Mary Sue" is to "Rey deserved an arc and the whole series was poorly written" as "let's go brandon" is to "gently caress Joe biden." 
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Jun 9, 2023 19:53
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This "A More Civilized Age" podcast was a good recommend, so thanks for that. I forgot how good the first season of Rebels looked, especially considering it was made in 2014. I'd love to see that vinyl action figure aesthetic updated for 2023. The show does reward a careful rewatching.
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Jun 9, 2023 19:57
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LividLiquid posted:But another big missing piece here is that, and I've said this before here, but it bears repeating, Star Wars is also for children. Star Wars is mostly for children. An awful lot of little girls loving *adore* Rey, and will grow up with 7 through 9 as their Star Wars trilogy. And forty-year-old men wanting to unexist that trilogy, entirely missing that it was in no way just for them (or just being angry that they're no longer the target audience) really need to step back and understand that this series was never for one kind of person, and not everything in it is going to resonate with them, and they can just wait ten minutes for a different Star War that does.
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Jun 9, 2023 20:41
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Dexo posted:this is at the end of TLJ, so no. Star Wars movies take an ambiguous time, with an unclear amount of time between them. This does exclude the ones that have scenes clearly years apart. The Phantom Menace is longer than a week, but shorter than two weeks. About ten years go by. Attack of the Clones is a week. Two years go by. Revenge of the Sith takes a little less than a week. Solo is spread over years, but the bulk of the action is around 3 or 4 days. Everything from Kessel on is a few hours. Rogue One is also only three days or so, from Jyn being "rescued" onward. A New Hope is about six days, picking up within a few hours of Rogue One. Three years later, The Empire Strikes back happens and hell if anyone knows how much time goes by. Hoth is only about two or three days and Cloud City is at least two days (there's two sunsets). The middle of the movie is weeks or months. A year later, Return of the Jedi takes another week or so, with some ambiguity between how much time passes between Jabba and Endor parts. Months would make more sense in the narrative, but Luke going to Dagobah seems to be hours at the most. The sequel trilogy throws most of that ambiguous timing right out the window by saying how long things take. TFA is, at the most, four days and two of those are on Jakku. TLJ and TFA actually overlap. Rey standing there with Luke's lightsaber is happening at the same time as the battle where Poe gets everyone killed. Because of the order of the scenes, the implication is that sublight chase and Casino Planet take place during the entirety of Rey's "training." That's explicitly less than 18 hours, because that's all the fuel available. The whole movie is less than a day. A year goes by and then TROS, with the exception of an beginning and end scenes, is a little over 16 hours.
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Jun 9, 2023 21:08
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And now TLJ makes even less sense. They call for aid, hear no response in like the first five minutes, and immediately jump to "all is lost, no hope in the galaxy" instead. Not "maybe no one replied so they could not literally broadcast to the First Order that they're on the way" or "we'll have to make our stand here because it'll take at least six hours for any sort of help to arrive." Then everything immediately flips around and an armed fleet of Little Ships gets rounded up in 20 minutes because Lando drove around Northern Illinois in the Bluesmobile with a stolen loudspeaker strapped to the roof.
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Jun 9, 2023 21:20
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Doctor Spaceman posted:The comics have dipped into it too but the problem is that unlike the prequels there isn't an interesting hook to work with. I think the prequels being lovely is why so much stuff can be connected to them. Originally they were all over the place, had a lot that didn't make sense and were unfinished - so you could write material to fill it in. Maybe the prequels being lovely saved Star Wars?
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Jun 9, 2023 21:21
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Sash! posted:That's explicitly less than 18 hours, because that's all the fuel available. The whole movie is less than a day. A year goes by and then TROS, with the exception of an beginning and end scenes, is a little over 16 hours. TLJ takes place over at least 2 days because like CC there is are 2 sunsets/night transitions on Achto - the fuel line by Finn occurs right before they go to Canto Bight There is also an ambiguous amount of time during the ending of TFA -> Returning from Starkiller to Rey traveling to find Luke (obviously we can go with the TFA imposed hyperspace rule of it takes 5 minutes to travel there tho) Jerkface fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Jun 9, 2023 |
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Jun 9, 2023 21:27
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CornHolio posted:I think the prequels being lovely is why so much stuff can be connected to them. Originally they were all over the place, had a lot that didn't make sense and were unfinished - so you could write material to fill it in. Maybe the prequels being lovely saved Star Wars? The biggest issue with the prequels was "missed opportunity." George filling in that part with TCW retroactively made the movies better and made a lot of less people not micofocus on the issues in each as much anymore. But George always had plans for the Clone Wars outside of the movies to a degree. And then the large gap between RotS and ANH allows for a ton of underdog and spy stories to be told. There was just good planning there. You can't do that with the sequels because there was no plan, and the gap story of the New Republic failing isn't as fun as telling stories about people gradually building a Resistance to Facism.
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Jun 9, 2023 22:49
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TLJ is a good stand alone film and thankfully it's not part of a trilogy. It's weird though that it's set up in media res and leaves us wondering what could happen next. A shame we'll never know!
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Jun 9, 2023 23:09
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Owlbear Camus posted:"Rey is a Mary Sue" is to "Rey deserved an arc and the whole series was poorly written" as "let's go brandon" is to "gently caress Joe biden." It's a dog whistle. It's always been a dog whistle. The message of it also resonates with people who aren't giant misogynists or fans of Youtube chuds because, and you and I agree on this, Rey deserved a better arc. One that kept all the promises made by The Last Jedi. But she is not, and has never been, a Mary Sue, and people who want to discuss the weaknesses of her arc should just do that instead of repeating CHUD youtuber talking points first shat into the fan zeitgeist by a literal, actual rapist. If people want to poo poo on how they dropped the ball, I'll be right alongside you nodding my head with the occasional "fuckin' a right." Sash! posted:Then everything immediately flips around and an armed fleet of Little Ships gets rounded up in 20 minutes because Lando drove around Northern Illinois in the Bluesmobile with a stolen loudspeaker strapped to the roof.  
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Jun 9, 2023 23:13
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Sash! posted:Then everything immediately flips around and an armed fleet of Little Ships gets rounded up in 20 minutes because Lando drove around Northern Illinois in the Bluesmobile with a stolen loudspeaker strapped to the roof. The hell kinda Charisma does Lando have where he can tell people "Fly into this death cloud and fight a fleet of Death Stars" and not have everyone laugh in his face and slam their doors  That drat smile...
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Jun 9, 2023 23:57
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Darko posted:The biggest issue with the prequels was "missed opportunity." George filling in that part with TCW retroactively made the movies better and made a lot of less people not micofocus on the issues in each as much anymore. But George always had plans for the Clone Wars outside of the movies to a degree. Yeah. There is also the gap between TLJ and RoS but it feels short and uneventful outside of Rey's training.
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Jun 10, 2023 01:39
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Lando: Listen, the Emperor is back somehow and has a bunch of Death Star ships so we go- The Galaxy: Stop. You had me at,"Hello."  Lando: ....I didn't say hello..... but okay!
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Jun 10, 2023 02:43
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They all owed him a favor from sabacc
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Jun 10, 2023 02:46
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Honestly, if they made that joke themselves, all "but who could possibly unite the galaxy in coming to our aid? Nobody's that charismatic" and smashed cut to Lando, people would've still loving hated it, but I'd have cackled like a goon and loved every second of it.
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Jun 10, 2023 03:13
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LividLiquid posted:Honestly, if they made that joke themselves, all "but who could possibly unite the galaxy in coming to our aid? Nobody's that charismatic" and smashed cut to Lando, people would've still loving hated it, but I'd have cackled like a goon and loved every second of it. That would have owned tbh
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Jun 10, 2023 03:48
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Vinylshadow posted:The hell kinda Charisma does Lando have where he can tell people "Fly into this death cloud and fight a fleet of Death Stars" and not have everyone laugh in his face and slam their doors https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01wJmsqjY7I hell, yes, I would follow this man into the core of a death star Whyever do you ask? AJA fucked around with this message at 07:52 on Jun 10, 2023 |
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Jun 10, 2023 07:29
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Butterfly Valley posted:Acknowledging those differences doesn't make you a misogynist, just someone who can recognise inconsistent and lovely writing (which is absolutely rife in the sequels, so it shouldn't be controversial that Rey's story is also garbage) where the protagonist has precisely as much power as they need to in service of moving the plot forward, rather than the plot being in service of her growth as a character. this final point was something that bugged me ever since my first time watching TFA. I recall thinking that it was kind of boring watching the main person just naturally pick things up and immediately be able to go toe-to-toe against people who had been training for years. There isn't any tension in that. However, I think box office numbers have shown that the average person going to the movies isn't looking for tension, and that's fine. If for every sequel trilogy we get something like Andor, I'll take it
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Jun 10, 2023 08:39
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There needs to be a better term than "Mary Sue" because not only is Rey not an author insert, but as that one goon pointed out, it's become an incredibly toxic term. Rey's a loving anime or Young Adult literature protagonist. Everyone loves her and she's the best at everything and has been touched by evil, etc.
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Jun 10, 2023 11:28
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Didn't the term "Mary Sue" first originate from a Star Trek parody fanfic to begin with and therefore was never a concept that should have been taken seriously?
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Jun 10, 2023 13:49
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It was a parody of an extant trend being commented on, the author's hyper-compitent self-insert who is an instant peer to the skills of all the canon ensemble with equal or greater skill in all their specialties and beloved by the canon cast. The "self-insert" part is not a sine qua non in the modern usage, now it's just a character the speaker believes is too competent compared to established characters. It's not for nothing that "Mary sues" tend to cause more ire than "Gary stus."
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Jun 10, 2023 14:12
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Larryb posted:Didn't the term "Mary Sue" first originate from a Star Trek parody fanfic to begin with and therefore was never a concept that should have been taken seriously? It was something that was happening a lot in fanfic where fanfic writing was inventing new characters that were self inserts that were better than established characters, great at everything, and loved by everyone else. Mary Sue was a parody of that because it was happening so much. It came from Star Trek way back in the day where fanfics and novels kept doing that over and over. Also, Wesley was one of the first characters called a Gary Stu since he was named after Gene and also followed the trope even though Gene was the creator, heh. Rey is a prime example of one, except for being a self insert. As stated before, though, it's a flaw of the sequels not being congruent, fighting with each other, and her never having an actual arc and thus winning in every movie. It's an unfortunate side effect of the politics behind the scenes messing up the execution. Like "Karen" and "woke" its a term that dumb, bad people use for everything they dont like and mess up the original meaning, but thats just any negative term at this point. You will never be able to say anything in the long run as the same people will just take anything you say and misuse it. Darko fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Jun 10, 2023 |
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Jun 10, 2023 14:26
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Darko posted:Also, Wesley was one of the first characters called a Gary Stu since he was named after Gene and also followed the trope even though Gene was the creator, heh. Hahaha fuckin nerds. I’m glad nothing like that ever happened in the precious Original Trilogy. (I agree with everything else you said)
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