Ukraine War: Berth El Buk

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(Thread IKs: weg, Toxic Mental)

Rev. Bleech_: Oct 19, 2004; ~OKAY, WE'LL DRINK TO OUR LEGS!~

thekeeshman posted:

Hope those guys can quickly learn how to sleep in a tree, they're going to be up there for a while.

SLEEP NOW IN THE FIR
*rocks out*

# ? Jun 10, 2023 00:27

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# ? May 29, 2024 20:45

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

https://i.imgur.com/lcI3PLI.mp4

# ? Jun 10, 2023 00:29

Deki: May 12, 2008; It's Hammer Time!

HKR posted:

mostly the same reason we cheer every time Ukraine blows a hyper sonic missile out of the air; basically "So much for your super weapon eh?"

I do have to lol that most of the accused western "wonderwaffe" are just regular rear end systems/vehicles that have been in active and regular use since before I've been alive. Though most of them are going to have modernization upgrades/packages of course.

The Switchblades are the only extremely recent thing I've heard about the US giving Ukraine, and those seem to be more about seeing how well they actually perform in combat (not very well, apparently)

# ? Jun 10, 2023 00:29

Randarkman: Jul 18, 2011

WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:

I also don't think people understand how loving difficult mechanized / armored warfare and combined arms is. It is not loving easy at all it's not easy to get artillery men not to kill their own infantry man and it's not easy to get tanks to keep Pace with their infantry and vice versa. It is the Pinnacle of warfare to conduct combined arms.

You know what happened to the British in the somme? They were never really good at artillerying until later in the war, and half the time the infantrymen were going to slow and the other half the time the artillery was firing too fast. Read about that loving battle if you really want to know what happens to countries that are going to the learning process of warfare. And funny enough most people would have thought the British losses in the song did decisively end their contribution to the war. Clearly it did not.

Sure I feel pretty sad when I see a leopard is dead but that's because there's a guy fighting for his country inside of it that got possibly injured even if he's just contused. But I know for a fact that every leopard that goes down means the ukrainians are putting the fight to the enemy. This part of the fight will be one partially by mechanized and armored warfare but it will also be won by infantryman locking rifles with the Nazis at close loving range.

And I don't think it's been explained but a lot of us are using mechanized and motorized interchangeably when we really shouldn't be. Motorized is truck based infantry, mechanized is armored the vehicle based infantry. Two very different things. Mechanized is going to be able to follow up armored columns far superior than motorized but for the most part the tdf and holding forces are going to be running trucks. So this is layers of a counteroffensive, you have the armor units and mechanized clearing out enemies and causing retreats while motorized units come and secure the area and do mop up operations.

Honestly we could go into it forever but there is a difference in people should know it.

Jesus Christ. Take a breather.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 00:32

Bluemillion: Aug 18, 2008; I got your dispensers
right here

mobby_6kl posted:

https://i.imgur.com/lcI3PLI.mp4

Now explain to the cat that Putin unleashed the water and give him directions to Moscow.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 00:50

Toxic Mental: Jun 1, 2019

mobby_6kl posted:

https://i.imgur.com/lcI3PLI.mp4

gently caress Putin, dude. gently caress him.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 00:55

Karma Comedian: Feb 2, 2012

Toxic Mental posted:

gently caress Putin, dude. gently caress him.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 00:59

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

Randarkman posted:

Jesus Christ. Take a breather.

I take breaths

# ? Jun 10, 2023 00:59

HonorableTB: Dec 22, 2006

That was a good post, don't discount it just because it's long. Gigolo's not wrong about anything he wrote in there about mechanized vs motorized infantry. You do need all of that for a combined arms offensive to work, when you don't have it meshing you get uh...miles-long traffic jams of armor stuck on the highway at the same time as unsupported air drops at a major airport at the same time as sending riot police directly to Kyiv ahead of every other infantry

Like, Russia is a fantastic example of how to NOT do combined arms warfare.

Also important to remember that the West isn't going "now don't run up my insurance rates on the armored fighting vehicles", they fully expect this poo poo to get wrecked because they built it for this purpose in the first place. It was all originally meant to fight Russia with, they knew what kind of losses to expect both in the Cold War and now

# ? Jun 10, 2023 01:14

Kchama: Jul 25, 2007

Randarkman posted:

Jesus Christ. Take a breather.

We should encourage good posts like that.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 01:31

pro starcraft loser: Jan 23, 2006; Stand back, this could get messy.

mobby_6kl posted:

https://i.imgur.com/lcI3PLI.mp4

Kchama posted:

We should encourage good posts like that.

This does me good. gently caress Putin and him doing this, but little wins like this are good to see.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 01:56

CSM: Jan 29, 2014; 56th Motorized Infantry 'Mariupol' Brigade
Seh' die Welt in Trummern liegen

WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:

It's also kind of a bad thing that Russia is bragging about killing leopards a few days into the counteroffensive, because ask yourself what is behind these leopard killing lines. Once they break through these lines that apparently blowing one leopard up a day what is after that?

I mean we're not talking about the redoubts of Moscow here or the layered defenses of the Hindenburg line. These are single or two line defenses. As in main line reserve line and thats it. Usually defenses are supposed to become more impregnable of the further you get into them, that is not what is happening in the Russian lines. There is one line of tank traps and that is all. So WOAH they lost a leopard...but uh the rest of the leopards are walking through.

You should probably look up a map of the actual Russian defensive lines, because they're quite extensive and in depth, and Ukraine mostly hasn't reached them yet. The fighting is taking place in front of them for now.

HonorableTB posted:

The US lost 80 M1 Abrams tanks to the Iraqis in combat and people are calling Ukraine a lost cause for losing 2 Leopards lol

E: and the US also lost Abrams in the first Persian Gulf War, fighting against T-54s, T-62s, and T-72s. Several Abrams were hit by enemy fire, but none destroyed (one was disabled and abandoned). A total of 9 Abrams were destroyed, 7 of which were friendly fire and the other two were intentionally destroyed to prevent them falling into enemy hands. Another 14 were damaged in the fighting.

Western kit isn't indestructible, it's just on a whole other level of operation than Russian gear is on average, but you're still going to lose some of it.

The problem is Ukraine doesn't have that many fancy western kit. So blowing through a Leopard and eight Bradley's in one single spot is''t exactly something you want many repeats of.

CSM fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Jun 10, 2023

# ? Jun 10, 2023 02:01

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

CSM posted:

You should probably look up a map of the actual Russian defensive lines, because they're quite extensive and in depth, and Ukraine mostly hasn't reached them yet. The fighting is taking place in front of them for now.

The problem is Ukraine doesn't have that many fancy western kit. So blowoig through a Leopard and eight Bradley's in one single spot is''t exactly something you want many repeats of.

Send em! I know the Starobislk line is intense, as are the ramparts of melitopol. Ive probably seen these lines you are discussing and should state this is more of a call out on the "OHG 1 LEOPARD DOWN WAR OVER" idiots on Twitter

# ? Jun 10, 2023 02:10

Coolguye: Jul 6, 2011; Required by his programming!

HonorableTB posted:

Also important to remember that the West isn't going "now don't run up my insurance rates on the armored fighting vehicles", they fully expect this poo poo to get wrecked because they built it for this purpose in the first place. It was all originally meant to fight Russia with, they knew what kind of losses to expect both in the Cold War and now

there's also the point that a lot of the stuff being sent over is equipment that was mostly moldering in the warehouse prior to being committed and in case of an Actual Serious War it would've been third-string or worse so in a lot of ways having it go out and get blown up is sorta doing the host country a favor.

like, if the US went to Actual War those bradleys were not going to be the ones they used on the first or even second assaults. if the green forces accomplish a goal, don't get killed doing it, and they don't have to pay the guys at the motorpool to keep up something they kinda considered obsolete, that's sort of the best of all worlds for them.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 02:11

CSM: Jan 29, 2014; 56th Motorized Infantry 'Mariupol' Brigade
Seh' die Welt in Trummern liegen

WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:

Send em! I know the Starobislk line is intense, as are the ramparts of melitopol. Ive probably seen these lines you are discussing and should state this is more of a call out on the "OHG 1 LEOPARD DOWN WAR OVER" idiots on Twitter

Oh ok.

I'm referring to maps like these:

https://twitter.com/albir2024/status/1667190995027472386?t=bLx7Z-l63eHoToi1mOn_aA&s=19

I thought they had built multiple defensive lines, with multiple obstacles. Of course who knows the actual strengths of these, but I understand they look quite extensive on
satellite footage.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 02:16

HonorableTB: Dec 22, 2006

Ukraine has enough support that these losses are not worth getting upset about. You probably heard a lot about defense to attack ratios during the defense of Bakhmut where Ukraine was causing 3-4 casualties for each 1 they sustained on average. That was normal for defensive operations. Ukraine is now on the attack, they are going to eat higher losses than they have been previously because of this. It's to be expected, and again, whatever is sent is going to be replaced quickly. People don't really think they're going to just get like ten Leos and that's it do they? Hell they're getting F-16s in a few months lol

CSM posted:

Oh ok.

I'm referring to maps like these:

I thought they had built multiple defensive lines, with multiple obstacles. Of course who knows the actual strengths of these, but I understand they look quite extensive on
satellite footage.

Keep in mind Russia just flooded a major chunk of their own defensive lines in Zaporizhzhia and Kherson Oblasts along the river going to the south lol

# ? Jun 10, 2023 02:17

CAT INTERCEPTOR: Nov 9, 2004; Basically a male Margaret Thatcher

At least one of those tanks that Russia been crowing about already back for repairs, that would means the Bradleys likely got back as well.

*shrug*

I'm sure Ukraine will lose more ejecting the genocidal assholes from their country. Hopefully not many.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 02:22

CSM: Jan 29, 2014; 56th Motorized Infantry 'Mariupol' Brigade
Seh' die Welt in Trummern liegen

CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:

At least one of those tanks that Russia been crowing about already back for repairs, that would means the Bradleys likely got back as well.

They first need to actually advance past that spot, before they can recover the disabled vehicles. Is it clear they have?

# ? Jun 10, 2023 02:32

HonorableTB: Dec 22, 2006

tell me more about those ukronazis, popular russian voenkor telegram channel with tens of thousands of subscribers

And as far as whether Ukraine has taken Russian positions, they have in several places that I've seen reports from. Russian sources are screaming for air support, Ukrainian sources are silent

HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Jun 10, 2023

# ? Jun 10, 2023 02:55

Dandywalken: Feb 11, 2014

Pretty sure its because Ukr sources know they dont HAVE air support

# ? Jun 10, 2023 03:34

Budzilla: Oct 14, 2007; We can all learn from our past mistakes.

A good laugh out of me from NCD

It is pretty amazing that people still are basing the success of the offensive with the first few pictures/claims that have been posted on social media. Even with the Kherson, Kharkiv early reports and the fact that Ukraine has been very good with OPSEC and the propaganda that is flowing from both sides maybe wait it out for maybe a week or so before passing judgement?

Only registered members can see post attachments!

# ? Jun 10, 2023 03:45

HonorableTB: Dec 22, 2006

Budzilla posted:

A good laugh out of me from NCD

It is pretty amazing that people still are basing the success of the offensive with the first few pictures/claims that have been posted on social media. Even with the Kherson, Kharkiv early reports and the fact that Ukraine has been very good with OPSEC and the propaganda that is flowing from both sides maybe wait it out for maybe a week or so before passing judgement?

lmao

What else do the pro-Z and tankie people have if not for this poo poo? Not like they have any REAL victories to talk about lol. Guess times are tough when you cant take Kyiv in 3 days as the second best military in the world*

*not even second best military in ukraine

e: i got probed once for posting the vdv parody song in response to the kherson retreat and it really ruffled feathers lol

# ? Jun 10, 2023 03:53

Deki: May 12, 2008; It's Hammer Time!

Budzilla posted:

A good laugh out of me from NCD

It is pretty amazing that people still are basing the success of the offensive with the first few pictures/claims that have been posted on social media. Even with the Kherson, Kharkiv early reports and the fact that Ukraine has been very good with OPSEC and the propaganda that is flowing from both sides maybe wait it out for maybe a week or so before passing judgement?

I think the big thing people need to do is remember that we have no real way to affect anything that goes on, so if you're stressing over it, maybe step away for a couple days.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 04:29

Nooner: Mar 26, 2011; AN A+ OPSTER (:

Deki posted:

I think the big thing people need to do is remember that we have no real way to affect anything that goes on, so if you're stressing over it, maybe step away for a couple days.

I'm currently using my psychic aura and astral projection actually so umm maybe don't tell me what does and does not matter in this

# ? Jun 10, 2023 04:49

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

Deki posted:

I do have to lol that most of the accused western "wonderwaffe" are just regular rear end systems/vehicles that have been in active and regular use since before I've been alive. Though most of them are going to have modernization upgrades/packages of course.

The Switchblades are the only extremely recent thing I've heard about the US giving Ukraine, and those seem to be more about seeing how well they actually perform in combat (not very well, apparently)

switchblades are at least 1, possibly 2 generations old (and I suspect were not very popular relative to alternatives given that a bunch of them were leftover to give to Ukraine). Like they're a decade old tech

# ? Jun 10, 2023 04:54

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

I blabbed about calories a lot during the early war as part of my justification for the Russia's losing all combat momentum very quickly after the war started.

But defensive for the most part is lazy mans work. It's chilling. For the Russians it's complacent. Sure Wagner can use men like beasts of burden to rush the positions in the attack, but defense is a bit more difficult.

Will the Russian commanders allow their men to stand fast in the trenches? I mean WILL the men stay in the trenches when the shelling gets really bad. Because here's the thing. Think of artillery in the wars that have featured trenches as one of their staples. Artillery has gained accuracy over the last 100 years

Here's a few examples of this:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-08/most-accurate-us-artillery-shell-is-quietly-added-to-ukraine-aid

The Excalibur. We've talked about it in length back when it was a big news subject. But these are loving important. They are within 10M accuracy. Pretty goddamn good for cracking defensive lines.

And look, trenches with ATGMs are bad. But they require you to steel yourselves against what could be some of the most vicious bombing the Russia's have ever experienced. These guys ain't wearing ear protection and I shake thinking about the ear damage that a bombardment of the magnitude that will dk to their systems. I shake because I've been foot close to .50s going off and you are newy instantly deaf within a few shots. Imagine this. Brutal.

Sure I want Russia out of Ukraine but it's just so saddening knowing that Russia's citizens are being consceipted into occupying death trenches by their fascist government. Especially when it's the US/Europe providing the weaponry that is pinpoint accurate for 78+% of all fire missions. And let's notice that Russia's temper tantrums have stopped suddenly. From mega missile attack to not as much. They're saving those now OR have run out, OR: Putin is stacking them for the future possible incursion into Crimea.

It's left to be untold. But seriously the weaponry here is going to make quick work of some these defenses. The lines that CSM posted look kind of bad. I mean they're misshapen and don't feel to be able to protect each other or support reserve movements. I mean if Ukraine cracked the first line already, that's not great . Look at your map. They don't have many lines. And the offensive is days in.

poo poo is fierce. And I don't downplay that it will be a rough fight. But let's not call Russia's defensive anything comparable to the Hindenburg line or even the ost loving wall. These are Not Gigantic interlocking fields of fire fortresses that need to be shattered with overwhelming artillery fire. Its men in the mud.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 04:57

HonorableTB: Dec 22, 2006

I saw a video from that ambush that the Russians are crowing so much about, the one that took out some Bradleys and the Leopard. From doctrinal perspective, the Bradleys performed flawlessly:

-good fire discipline, with one mobility-disabled Bradley laying down a suppressive fire pattern against a far treeline, which continued until...

-the entire crew and infantry squad of another Bradley survived running over an anti-tank mine, at which time the first vehicle used...

-smoke launchers to allow the dismounts and crew of the second disabled Bradley to transfer to another unharmed vehicle and evacuate or continue the fight.

I feel safe in saying that this ambush would have gone quite differently, and with a lot more Ukrainian dead, had they been using more legacy Russian equipment. The divergence in priorities between Russian equipment and NATO equipment cannot be more clear here. Most of the troops were able to escape unscathed, and a Bradley loss is peanuts due to the US having literally thousands of them on standby ready to send if needed.

Most of the vehicle kills in this fight were mobility kills, not combat kills. If the Ukrainians can get people out there to recover them, they could be repaired and sent back into the fight.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 07:39

Beer Gay So What: Apr 20, 2023; THEY MADE THE BEER GAY AND THATS OK

Advancing when the other side has some kind of Air Support if any seems awful. I know Ukraines side is spent and Russia won't do much more than have their AF spit fires in a direction but making progress without air support just seems brutal. Hoping for the best but excepting modest gains.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 09:00

Quinntan: Sep 11, 2013

HonorableTB posted:

Even funnier is that the Leopard they're crowing about currently isn't even destroyed. It's already been recovered, it's being repaired, and the crew survived because the Leopard 2 doesn't cook off the ammo like Soviet tanks do. They have a blowout design that channels explosions up and out of the rear of the tank so the crew doesn't get vaporized. This basic survivability innovation turns Leopards into wonder weapons apparently.

...they do, for the 15 rounds of turret-stowed ammunition. But there's also 27 rounds stored in the hull that don't have that protection. A Turkish 2A4 received a penetrating hit in the front left of the hull that annihilated the tank because that ammunition went off.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 09:07

Tai: Mar 8, 2006

lmao how many angles of this tank am I going to see, it's still going on

# ? Jun 10, 2023 14:07

Randarkman: Jul 18, 2011

Tai posted:

lmao how many angles of this tank am I going to see, it's still going on

NAFO has been completely routed, Russia need only sit and wait for victory.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 14:15

BrassRoots: Jan 9, 2012; You can play a shoestring if you're sincere - John Coltrane

WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:

I blabbed about calories a lot during the early war as part of my justification for the Russia's losing all combat momentum very quickly after the war started.

But defensive for the most part is lazy mans work. It's chilling. For the Russians it's complacent. Sure Wagner can use men like beasts of burden to rush the positions in the attack, but defense is a bit more difficult.

Will the Russian commanders allow their men to stand fast in the trenches? I mean WILL the men stay in the trenches when the shelling gets really bad. Because here's the thing. Think of artillery in the wars that have featured trenches as one of their staples. Artillery has gained accuracy over the last 100 years

Here's a few examples of this:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-08/most-accurate-us-artillery-shell-is-quietly-added-to-ukraine-aid

The Excalibur. We've talked about it in length back when it was a big news subject. But these are loving important. They are within 10M accuracy. Pretty goddamn good for cracking defensive lines.

And look, trenches with ATGMs are bad. But they require you to steel yourselves against what could be some of the most vicious bombing the Russia's have ever experienced. These guys ain't wearing ear protection and I shake thinking about the ear damage that a bombardment of the magnitude that will dk to their systems. I shake because I've been foot close to .50s going off and you are newy instantly deaf within a few shots. Imagine this. Brutal.

Sure I want Russia out of Ukraine but it's just so saddening knowing that Russia's citizens are being consceipted into occupying death trenches by their fascist government. Especially when it's the US/Europe providing the weaponry that is pinpoint accurate for 78+% of all fire missions. And let's notice that Russia's temper tantrums have stopped suddenly. From mega missile attack to not as much. They're saving those now OR have run out, OR: Putin is stacking them for the future possible incursion into Crimea.

It's left to be untold. But seriously the weaponry here is going to make quick work of some these defenses. The lines that CSM posted look kind of bad. I mean they're misshapen and don't feel to be able to protect each other or support reserve movements. I mean if Ukraine cracked the first line already, that's not great . Look at your map. They don't have many lines. And the offensive is days in.

poo poo is fierce. And I don't downplay that it will be a rough fight. But let's not call Russia's defensive anything comparable to the Hindenburg line or even the ost loving wall. These are Not Gigantic interlocking fields of fire fortresses that need to be shattered with overwhelming artillery fire. Its men in the mud.

I dunno dude. I think I could briskly walk away from a shell ten metres away. That's even further away than a hand grenade.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 14:32

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

BrassRoots posted:

I dunno dude. I think I could briskly walk away from a shell ten metres away. That's even further away than a hand grenade.

NATO spends hundreds of billions to protect Ukraine from aggression. The Russians just use a brisk walk

# ? Jun 10, 2023 14:34

Karate Bastard: Jul 31, 2007; Soiled Meat

I want to live in a world where people don't lie so much all the drat time. I wonder if this will happen in my lifetime.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 14:39

Sedgr: Sep 16, 2007; Neat!

If that brisk walk took Russia back to their own country it would be better that's for sure. Cheaper too.

Just declare victory over that one Leo and return home to celebrate. Mission accomplished!

Putin is a real piece of poo poo.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 14:39

Mnoba: Jun 24, 2010

https://twitter.com/thefeyd/status/1667519256123015168

They rescued Battlecat (tm) from the flooding!

# ? Jun 10, 2023 14:42

I would blow Dane Cook: Dec 26, 2008

Ukraine invents new vatnik trap (sound on)

https://i.imgur.com/QUwdn3U.mp4

# ? Jun 10, 2023 15:12

Pander: Oct 9, 2007; Fear is the glue that holds society together. It's what makes people suppress their worst impulses. Fear is power.

And at the end of fear, oblivion.