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People love complaining about vidja games on the internet.
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May 24, 2023 22:02
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ThatBasqueGuy posted:v3 definitely needs a "war of the worlds" dlc later on in its cycle Hell yeah it does
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May 24, 2023 23:58
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Well that's interesting:https://www.ign.com/articles/star-trek-infinite-is-a-new-grand-strategy-game-from-paradoxquote:Star Trek: Infinite Is a New Grand Strategy Game From Paradox
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Jun 9, 2023 03:22
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Seems a bit misleading to call it a "grand strategy game from Paradox" when most people hearing that phrase will assume it's from PDS.
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Jun 9, 2023 03:53
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Releasing something better than the current crop of Stellaris Trek conversion mods is going to be a significant hill to climb.
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Jun 9, 2023 03:55
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2016's Master of Orion was a straightforwardly good update of the old MOO2, and if that's what we can expect from this, I'll probably be interested
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Jun 9, 2023 04:09
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Jabor posted:Seems a bit misleading to call it a "grand strategy game from Paradox" when most people hearing that phrase will assume it's from PDS. I had the same thought, especially since even people who post in this thread get Paradox the publisher confused with Paradox the developer at times. For me grand strategy is totally synonymous with PDS or a PDS knockoff and it feels cheap for PI to slap it on some other game they're publishing
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Jun 9, 2023 04:39
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Magissima posted:I had the same thought, especially since even people who post in this thread get Paradox the publisher confused with Paradox the developer at times. For me grand strategy is totally synonymous with PDS or a PDS knockoff and it feels cheap for PI to slap it on some other game they're publishing Confusing the publishing side with the developing side like they did here is bad. But there's no reason one of their subsidies can't develop a grand strategy game. The map we see in the trailer would fit right into Stellaris. So I guess we'll have to see whether the game deserves to be called a grand strategy game.
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Jun 9, 2023 06:03
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Sure, and tbh I didn't even watch the trailer because I don't care about star trek. I assumed it would be more of a 4x given the developer, but maybe not. It just rubbed me the wrong way because it goes against my personal connotations of grand strategy (i.e. PDS, historical) even if it does fit whatever formal definition people come up with edit: I also feel that it's kind of dubious to call Stellaris a grand strategy game but paradox does and I can't really argue with them Magissima fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Jun 9, 2023 |
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Jun 9, 2023 06:14
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Grand strategy games predate Paradox.
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Jun 9, 2023 06:52
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https://twitter.com/stellarisnexus/status/1666906051487363072
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Jun 9, 2023 08:14
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The short session focus sounds great, especially with all modern 4X going for bloat (Amplitude at least try to make games wider, not longer, but they're still on the longer side). But is it focused on multiplayer? Is it another doomed attempt to make 4X multiplayer game that a limited amount of people will play?
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Jun 9, 2023 11:04
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gradenko_2000 posted:2016's Master of Orion was a straightforwardly good update of the old MOO2, and if that's what we can expect from this, I'll probably be interested By the way, isn't it sad that it's not enough nowadays? It was an OK game and it even got a free big expansion adding Antarans, but it passed unnoticed for some reason, and impressive production levels didn't matter. I've seen more discussion on crap indie attempts to remake MoO2 like Star Drive 2.
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Jun 9, 2023 11:09
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ilitarist posted:By the way, isn't it sad that it's not enough nowadays? It was an OK game and it even got a free big expansion adding Antarans, but it passed unnoticed for some reason, and impressive production levels didn't matter. I've seen more discussion on crap indie attempts to remake MoO2 like Star Drive 2. yeah I picked it up this year after I went through a period of looking for a space 4x and finding the GalCiv games unsatisfying, but this one ticked all the right boxes and I was surprised why I'd never heard of it through word-of-mouth before I guess it got lost in the shuffle of lots of Steam releases?
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Jun 9, 2023 11:13
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I personally didn't like tactical combat and this is one of these games where skipping combat is a wrong idea, cause half of your tech tree is about adding unique ship components that are not just numerical upgrades but some quirks. Then again, I adore Endless Space 2 (too bad about the AI) and I have no idea at all what happens during combat in that game. But I bet most people who play Stellaris don't analyze combat and leave ship design to the computer.
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Jun 9, 2023 11:20
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Torrannor posted:Confusing the publishing side with the developing side like they did here is bad. But there's no reason one of their subsidies can't develop a grand strategy game. The map we see in the trailer would fit right into Stellaris. So I guess we'll have to see whether the game deserves to be called a grand strategy game. The only sin here is that they did this with Star Trek instead of Battletech.
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Jun 9, 2023 18:42
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Dramicus posted:The only sin here is that they did this with Star Trek instead of Battletech.
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Jun 9, 2023 18:56
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For some reason I am reminded of the browser based time/action gated games I played back in middle school.
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Jun 9, 2023 19:55
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VostokProgram posted:Grand strategy games predate Paradox. Oh? What are pre-Paradox grand strategy games? I'm genuinely curious.
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Jun 9, 2023 20:38
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Ruler of Nations!
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Jun 9, 2023 20:44
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You can call Imperialism 1/2 a 4X, but you can also call it GSG. And before that there were plenty of GSGs made by KOEI.
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Jun 9, 2023 22:43
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Off the top of my head I can think of star wars: rebellion and imperialism. Also 4X games would sometimes be called grand strategy games - I distinctly remember space empires 3 being described like that
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Jun 9, 2023 22:45
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ilitarist posted:The short session focus sounds great, especially with all modern 4X going for bloat (Amplitude at least try to make games wider, not longer, but they're still on the longer side). But is it focused on multiplayer? Is it another doomed attempt to make 4X multiplayer game that a limited amount of people will play? Yeah, it feels like they're making a Stellaris themed version of Risk. I have doubts about how wide the player base would be.
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Jun 9, 2023 23:21
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Maelstrom from 1992, Conquest of the New World, Balance of Power, Shadow President, Imperialism, Crisis in the Kremlin, and 1994's Kingmaker are all games that I'd say fit into being "non/pre-Paradox Grand Strategy" games, and that's already with going out of one's way to exclude anything related or similar to Civilization
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Jun 10, 2023 00:50
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Torrannor posted:Oh? What are pre-Paradox grand strategy games? I'm genuinely curious. Europa Universalis the actual board game 
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Jun 10, 2023 03:16
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reignonyourparade posted:Europa Universalis the actual board game Empires in Arms, the game it cribbed a LOT of basic mechanics from.
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Jun 10, 2023 03:21
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Do those old Koei strategy games count? Romance of the Three Kingdoms and Nobunaga's Ambition
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Jun 11, 2023 02:15
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Grand Strategy is such a vague term it basically applies to any 4X. But if we narrow the definition to only include the Paradox-style realtime and not turnbased, are there any games like that pre-Paradox?
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Jun 11, 2023 09:43
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GrossMurpel posted:Grand Strategy is such a vague term it basically applies to any 4X. But if we narrow the definition to only include the Paradox-style realtime and not turnbased, are there any games like that pre-Paradox? Shadow President at least basically runs like a pdox game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jUIphFg42A&t=695s (not an endorsement of this video, I couldn't find any no-commentary videos past the tutorial) Edit: If anyone wants to try an old nation management game, I would recommend giving Hidden Agenda a try. It's not really grand strategy since you don't directly control the military but it's a really neat game. It's less complicated to play than it looks. All you really need to know to get started is that it's entirely keyboard-based and the first thing you should do is go into the Contacts -> Party Dossiers screen and pick ministers from the different candidates there. Then you can talk to them from the Consultations icon and talk to different interest groups from the Encounters icon. It's a pretty similar game to other political sims like Crisis in the Kremlin but the scenario in Hidden Agenda is more interesting and detailed I think. Randallteal fucked around with this message at 11:22 on Jun 11, 2023 |
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Jun 11, 2023 11:07
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GrossMurpel posted:Grand Strategy is such a vague term it basically applies to any 4X. But if we narrow the definition to only include the Paradox-style realtime and not turnbased, are there any games like that pre-Paradox? I think the Master of Orion games qualify as pre-Stellaris games.
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Jun 11, 2023 11:33
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lobsterminator posted:I think the Master of Orion games qualify as pre-Stellaris games. But wouldn't most people say that Stellaris is a 4x, not a "grand strategy"? Has any game besides Svea Rike III ever been grand strategy?
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Jun 11, 2023 14:52
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Grand Strategy is when you start a war on turn 40 (or year 1680), but you lose it on turn 80 (or year 1740) because you chose to build a granary on turn 20 (or year 1500) instead of like, a barracks or whatever. The costs of making a mistake are large, and the gains from winning a victory are small; so it's whatever games fit the criteria of "long term planning" and "not-very forgiving".
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Jun 11, 2023 17:40
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Balance of Power (1985) isn't really granular like modern grand strategy titles, but it is along the same lines of statecraft and blowing everyone up
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Jun 11, 2023 17:45
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Half-wit posted:Grand Strategy is when you start a war on turn 40 (or year 1680), but you lose it on turn 80 (or year 1740) because you chose to build a granary on turn 20 (or year 1500) instead of like, a barracks or whatever. So, no paradox game is a grand strategy then?
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Jun 11, 2023 17:46
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Alternative, hotter take: "grand strategy" is mainly a marketing term Paradox have decided to push. Their games do have a somewhat unified design language and some shared design elements -- they're on the simulationist side of the simulation-abstraction spectrum; they try to model politics and not just warfare; they try to construct a narrative with characters, missions and events; they use maps with naturalistic borders instead of regular tilings -- but those elements can be found in other games that don't use the "grand strategy" label. There are no fundamental differences between a PDS game and other strategy games.
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Jun 11, 2023 17:50
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:But wouldn't most people say that Stellaris is a 4x, not a "grand strategy"? What's the difference between 4X and grand strategy? Other than the traditional genre conventions (one tends to be space focused, the other tends to be real-world focused), there isn't really a clear distinction between them. The four Xs that make up a 4X are "explore", "expand", "exploit", and "exterminate". Going by that, I'd say the EU games arguably qualify as 4Xs - you explore the map and reveal new lands, you expand into both unclaimed lands and into your neighbors, you exploit resources in areas you control to build up your empire, and you crush your neighbors and destroy your rivals. That's all four Xs right there.
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Jun 11, 2023 18:13
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I'd argue that 4x are a subset of grand strategy but are significantly more common that non-4X grand strategy. They hit basically all the markers (controlling a polity's economy politics and military with a broader scope than a single conflict) but specifically focus on starting with a small entity in an unknown environment with peer enemies on an even footing. Stellaris is basically a 4x, while Europa Universalis isn't despite having some exploration elements
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Jun 11, 2023 18:34
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I think what sets Paradox games apart is that expansion is not necessarily the end goal, and in many games is often discouraged.
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Jun 11, 2023 18:46
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anyone got that picture of the hosed up Hapsburg that's captioned "I'm 0/0/0"
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Jun 11, 2023 20:11
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Xerophyte posted:Alternative, hotter take: "grand strategy" is mainly a marketing term Paradox have decided to push. Their games do have a somewhat unified design language and some shared design elements -- they're on the simulationist side of the simulation-abstraction spectrum; they try to model politics and not just warfare; they try to construct a narrative with characters, missions and events; they use maps with naturalistic borders instead of regular tilings -- but those elements can be found in other games that don't use the "grand strategy" label. There are no fundamental differences between a PDS game and other strategy games. Yeah for me personally, "grand strategy" is forever cemented as "just what we decided to call this niche of real-time nation-level strategy" because that's what the EU3 tutorial said
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Jun 11, 2023 20:18
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