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Comstar posted:I just thought of something that blew my mind. Roko's Basileus
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Jun 12, 2023 13:42
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Comstar posted:I just thought of something that blew my mind. Yep, it even has that multilayer thing going on where there's the aesthetics of fascism at the top surface level if you are not inclined at all to engage with the lore in any way and would just assume the humans are good, and then every layer deeper you go the emperor's authoritarianism gets more and more heavily "justified". "OK, the humans do bad stuff but it's necessary to survive in this hostile galaxy". "Alright, sure, cults of personality are usually horrific, but this one actually protects humans from chaos". "While it's true that most empires are horrifically corrupt, and the imperium is no exception, in the case of the Emperor specifically, all he does is sit on the throne and act as a beacon without which interstellar travel would be impossible". "Okay, I guess it's true that a rabidly xenophobic ideology that indiscriminately kills all aliens, mutants and anyone who strays even slightly from the orthodoxy is 'Objectively Evil', but the Emperor didn't want that, he wanted to free humanity from superstition and religion and he even wanted to make alliances with other alien races like the Eldar!" and then right at the very bottom "Well, if you think doing a massive crusade across the galaxy that forcibly unifies all humans into an autocratic government regardless of what they want is for some reason 'wrong', the truth is that before he was betrayed the Emperor was setting up a civilian government that was going to take over administration of the empire after he'd unified it". Every time you learn a bad thing about the Imperium of Man, there's a justification ready to downplay the Emperor's culpability for it. The plan was perfect, the emperor is perfect, it's all the fault of traitors and corrupt subordinates and the stupid masses who were too stupid to follow the Leader's plan, that's why this place sucks, but also no better world is possible now because we lost the Emperor, the One Great Man who can fix things. And whatever sort of society you want, the Emperor is either giving it to you now, or would have given it to you if not for the heretics.
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Jun 12, 2023 14:26
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A setting where the Imperium is openly fascist but justifies it by pointing out that it has to be this way because all of the other factions are objectively worse is a setting that justifies fascism. Which, obviously, is going to appeal to real-life fascists, who think fascism is also justified in real life for the same reasons. The 40k fandom famously has always had a Nazi problem. Games Workshop distancing themselves from that mindset is a good thing. Froghammer fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Jun 12, 2023 |
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Jun 12, 2023 14:56
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Magnetic North posted:I am pretty ignorant about this type of media literacy, so I am just spitballing and tell me if I'm full of poo poo here: I wonder if the issue* is satire in the age of fandoms. Sure, singular satires are misinterpreted or misunderstood even in their time, but maybe it's the continual decades-long expansion of works into elaborate universes that strains any allegory to the breaking point. Perhaps the laws of narrative start to take over and direct the trajectory, often away from the satirical nature. Perhaps success under capitalism means broadening your base out to people who don't get subtext. I think Tim Colwell's article had the right of it: you can't blame the customer base for "not getting it," because there hasn't been any satire to get for like 20 years. They're not marketing Warhammer Adventures to kids by saying that they're awful fascist supercops. This is why I'm not at all keen to see GW "improve" the 40k setting by adding female Space Marines. If you changed the ideology of the Schutzstaffel just enough to accommodate including women, or for that matter nonwhite women, it would still be a fascist death squad. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Jun 12, 2023 |
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Jun 12, 2023 15:06
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Froghammer posted:A setting where the Imperium is openly fascist but justifies it by pointing out that it has to be this way because all of the other factions are objectively worse is a setting that justifies fascism. Which, obviously, is going to appeal to real-life fascists, who think fascism is also justified in real life for the same reasons. The 40k fandom famously has always had a Nazi problem. I thought part of the reason all the other factions are objectively worse was because the Imperium themselves wiped out all the factions that were better, like the Interrex.
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Jun 12, 2023 15:13
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They've been pulling back the curtain a little on the Emperor with the Horus Heresy, and turns out he's canonically a big hubristic shithead who hosed up the whole universe. It's a good development, IMO. Real life fascists have always leveraged the broke-brain misunderstanding that fascism is some necessary reaction to hard times. This subtly inverts that, showing that fascism was the root of all these "hard times." It's analogous to that classic Trek episode where they go to Planet Nazi: An astonishingly shortsighted Federation historian implemented Nazism - because it seemed like a good idea at the time, but that actually just made things worse. Don't know if any of this will penetrate the 4chan-osphere though.
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Jun 12, 2023 15:36
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Given the first Horus Heresy novel was published 17 years ago and was all but already screaming that The Imperium Of Man Is Bad, Actually (in between all the stuff about big strong space marines and their important personal dramas)... if it hasn't penetrated their brains yet, I don't think it's gonna.
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Jun 12, 2023 15:39
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 This meme is like a decade old
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Jun 12, 2023 15:49
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The best thing for making 40k less fascist would just be introducing more non-imperial non-chaos human factions. Squats are really the closest we got.
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Jun 12, 2023 15:52
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Froghammer posted:A setting where the Imperium is openly fascist but justifies it by pointing out that it has to be this way because all of the other factions are objectively worse is a setting that justifies fascism. Sorry I mean "lol nerd orks aren't real"
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Jun 12, 2023 15:53
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The final book of the Siege of Terra is set up to clarify that he's been the heel all along - but I don't know if they're brave enough to follow through with it.
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Jun 12, 2023 15:53
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Someone smarter about narrative structures can probably discuss it better, but I think the introduction of the heresy is partially where they went wrong. 40k tries to do two things simultaneously which damage any message that could be received by the reader. First, the Emperor was betrayed by his sons and the Imperium is shades of (awful) grey with flawed people running it. Second, primordial evil exists and will reach out and make you also evil. I am not sure you can have the nuance necessary for satire, or even a moral, in the presence of absolute evil. If it was versus Orks et al it could be possible since Orks are just alien and different. Chaos means that the Imperium is justified, and I think “fascism is correct” is all you can expect here.
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Jun 12, 2023 16:00
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going back to the well of Elric novels might be useful for threading that needle or just actually following through on one of the many semi-abandoned plotlines that are like "no there's totally a way to save the galaxy and unfuck humanity's relationship with the Warp, it just requires you to cooperate with the aliens instead of genociding them and/or have the tiniest little amount of ideological flexibility" wrt Ynnari, the Senseis, etc. the problem to my mind is less that the 40k universe as presented can only be read as fascist so much as that any kind of resolution or definitive statement will always be held in suspension
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Jun 12, 2023 16:10
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In theory - in theory, mind - there's an extra layer there where, with how the Warp and Chaos work, the Imperium is making its own problems even on that end because the Warp just reflects the psychic state of the real world. Psychic in the mental health sense, not the "cool rad powers" sense. For all that the Emperor was trying to weaken the gods, really he was feeding them with so much about the Great Crusade. Khorne would have loved the violence and hatred the Emperor mandated, biological weaponry like the virus bombs may have encouraged Nurgle, stuff like that. You can creditably make the case that the galaxy would actually be way better off if humanity didn't exist, or at least the Imperium didn't, because the Emperor for all his Galaxy Brain Masterminding was completely playing into giving Chaos more power and eventually handed them some of their favorite tools. There's plenty of fertile material both in the Heresy and a lot of stuff ever since about how fascists will absolutely eat their own, and gladly create internal enemies even when they do still have external enemies of their choosing. But even then GW went and muddied that point really goddamn fast way back when they introduced the Necrons and the War in Heaven backstory, where oops everything in the Warp was already screwed by an ancient mega-war, which just got stirred up again when the Eldar hosed a new god into existence. Turns out the deck was already stacked and now we're back to "yes there's ancient and primal evil that humanity certainly isn't making better but has also been there so long that the only response is
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Jun 12, 2023 16:18
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As usual, I blame the fuckwit Tom Kirby for GW forgetting the satire bit of the Imperium
Nissin Cup Nudist fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Jun 12, 2023 |
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Jun 12, 2023 16:21
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The comics jack kirby???
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Jun 12, 2023 16:22
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Crow Buddy posted:
The big shift is that the Emperor foolishly attempted to leverage that Evil. It's also looking more and more like it was the Emperor who betrayed his sons (and all of humanity.)
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Jun 12, 2023 16:22
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Really 40k needs to be Sigmar'dNissin Cup Nudist posted:As usual, I blame the fuckwit Jack Kirby for GW forgetting the satire bit of the Imperium
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Jun 12, 2023 16:23
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:As usual, I blame the fuckwit Jack Kirby for GW forgetting the satire bit of the Imperium please do not blaspheme
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Jun 12, 2023 16:25
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They should do some 50k material where the imperium has fallen, which has simultaneously defanged the worst threats of Chaos, and then everyone has to deal with, oh there's not actually a metaphysical existential threat to all existence, maybe we need to figure out some way to live now
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Jun 12, 2023 16:26
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Honest question: what does it matter if 40k is a parody? It's a miniatures game, it doesn't need to have a message. If people want to play fascists (presuming the Imperium of Man is technically one, idk) in the war of fascists against fascists in the grimdark battle to rule the galaxy, that's their choice.
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Jun 12, 2023 16:30
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Tendales posted:They should do some 50k material where the imperium has fallen, which has simultaneously defanged the worst threats of Chaos, and then everyone has to deal with, oh there's not actually a metaphysical existential threat to all existence, maybe we need to figure out some way to live now
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Jun 12, 2023 16:30
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Arivia posted:Honest question: what does it matter if 40k is a parody? 
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Jun 12, 2023 16:39
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Terrible Opinions posted:Really 40k needs to be Sigmar'd Yeah, whoops Tom Kirby, he sucked
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Jun 12, 2023 16:46
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Tendales posted:They should do some 50k material where the imperium has fallen, which has simultaneously defanged the worst threats of Chaos, and then everyone has to deal with, oh there's not actually a metaphysical existential threat to all existence, maybe we need to figure out some way to live now I've seen speculation that when poo poo finally implodes the Emperor will become a fifth Chaos God, similar to how the Eldar birthed Slaanesh. The Chaos God of Tyranny would be an interesting concept to explore.
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Jun 12, 2023 17:02
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Lemniscate Blue posted:I've seen speculation that when poo poo finally implodes the Emperor will become a fifth Chaos God, similar to how the Eldar birthed Slaanesh. The Chaos God of Tyranny would be an interesting concept to explore. So when that happens, does a current legion go traitor because they are so loyal?
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Jun 12, 2023 17:06
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Halloween Jack posted:This is why I'm not at all keen to see GW "improve" the 40k setting by adding female Space Marines. If you changed the ideology of the Schutzstaffel just enough to accommodate including women, or for that matter nonwhite women, it would still be a fascist death squad. There's a great argument on the Sigmarxism subreddit about the female space marine debate - with a line that more or less summons up the dumbfuck arguments people make: arguing whether or not it makes sense in the lore for women to be astartes is like arguing which colors of froot loops are allowed based on what Toucan Sam says. And uh, yeah. Basically. I literally cannot take someone seriously when they point to a lore product and go "see? it says right here?" shut up bitch. Kevin Roundtree could go "The Emperor is Trans" tomorrow if it guaranteed profits and there's nothing you could do except start coping and bawling your eyes out because his company owns the IP. This ain't a Sherlock Holmes situation. moths posted:It's analogous to that classic Trek episode where they go to Planet Nazi: An astonishingly shortsighted Federation historian implemented Nazism - because it seemed like a good idea at the time, but that actually just made things worse. moths posted:Don't know if any of this will penetrate the 4chan-osphere though. Nissin Cup Nudist posted:As usual, I blame the fuckwit Tom Kirby for GW forgetting the satire bit of the Imperium Tom Kirby's only sins were being a boomer who hated the Internet and thought it was a fad (like, post 2010) and being overly cautious due to a small dip in sales(people shat on him for killing fantasy but Fantasy was being readily outsold by MESBG for years, so why invest in a product when you're being told people want more Lord of the Rings?) and more fair having a couple product releases that were massive financial losses for GW like Dreadfleet and especially Gorkamorka. I will always like him for going to the shareholders to explain that X-Wing dethroned his product because they have no idea, that they do no market research, and that they've just been putting out models and people like models so  . Course this meeting got him shitcanned but the balls to just admit you have no real idea how and why your business model works after doing it for like ten+ years is impressive. Everyone says Roundtree made GW a nicer company but all they did was ramp up the FOMO and increase the size of their catalogue and start taking steps into making Warhammer 40k into a Live Service-tier game. They even opened a "community" website which is just an advertising blog that updates five times a day and works like Nintendo's directs, to hype up their upcoming titles. Now they have their own netflix with their own lore videos and battle reports and such, and hey, they're pretty slick and well designed. Hundreds of ebooks on the app or audible, so you can just sort of dunk yourself into the comfy Warhammer zone. You basically don't even need to seek other media elsewhere, they've got you covered, baby! Movies and live action tv shows are coming soon too!
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Jun 12, 2023 17:06
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I'm not a 40k fan despite playing in every 40k rpg they make (it's just too gritty and mean spirited) but that'd be the kind of progression that might make me interested in it
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Jun 12, 2023 17:08
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:There's a great argument on the Sigmarxism subreddit about the female space marine debate - with a line that more or less summons up the dumbfuck arguments people make: arguing whether or not it makes sense in the lore for women to be astartes is like arguing which colors of froot loops are allowed based on what Toucan Sam says. quote:Tom Kirby's only sins were being a boomer who hated the Internet and thought it was a fad (like, post 2010) and being overly cautious due to a small dip in sales(people shat on him for killing fantasy but Fantasy was being readily outsold by MESBG for years, so why invest in a product when you're being told people want more Lord of the Rings?) and more fair having a couple product releases that were massive financial losses for GW like Dreadfleet and especially Gorkamorka. I will always like him for going to the shareholders to explain that X-Wing dethroned his product because they have no idea, that they do no market research, and that they've just been putting out models and people like models so
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Jun 12, 2023 17:18
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Real life fascists are drawn to 40k for the same reasons that they're into Star Wars. it's not that they don't understand that the empires (both of them) are the bad guys, it's a power fantasy. Both 40k and Star Wars make them cool because they're taken so seriously and get to enact the fantasies of fascism. 40k lost the "parody" of its settling a LONG time ago especially with the imperium and doubly especially with the Space Marines who are always cool even in failure even in death even in eternal servitude. There's a great story about the superman radio show tanking klan membership by having them as cartoonish and embarrassing losers so maybe that's the energy needed to rid 40k of the nazi fans
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Jun 12, 2023 17:21
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Ominous Jazz posted:Real life fascists are drawn to 40k for the same reasons that they're into Star Wars. it's not that they don't understand that the empires (both of them) are the bad guys, it's a power fantasy. Both 40k and Star Wars make them cool because they're taken so seriously and get to enact the fantasies of fascism. Replace the Empire with the Yiga Clan?
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Jun 12, 2023 17:21
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I don't know what that is
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Jun 12, 2023 17:25
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Crow Buddy posted:Someone smarter about narrative structures can probably discuss it better, but I think the introduction of the heresy is partially where they went wrong. I thought part of the point of the Interrex was that just honestly educating people about the dangers of Chaos was at least as effective in preventing people from turning to Chaos as the Imperium's aggressive thought-policing.
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Jun 12, 2023 17:50
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There's been at least a little bit of movement to inject a little more satire (or at least criticism of the Imperium) into the setting recently, at least in some of the less mainstream stuff. The Necromunda books are loaded with satire and dystopian themes, with each book opening with a fake message from Lord Helmawr that is always absurd and insane. There's still a little bit of iffy stuff in there, but they're much more consistent in the messaging that "the Imperium is a nightmare realm that relies on mass death and oppression to keep its wheels turning". I've also noticed a bit more fleshing out of Chaos in the novels, and the introduction of some more heroic characters on the Chaos side. I really liked Mike Brooks' depiction of the Alpha Legion in Harrowmaster: they're a diverse group of renegades with different motives and goals who are united only by their shared past and their desire to destroy the Imperium. They're basically a revolutionary organization and that's cool! It's a cool use of Chaos as kind of a metaphor for exploring revolutionary politics. What methods are justified when fighting tyranny? How far will you go and at what point are you doing more harm than good? Who can you trust? Does sharing an enemy actually make someone your friend? It's pretty solid, but Mike Brooks writes some really good stuff and is a dyed-in-the-wool lefty. I also think the reintroduction of the Squats as an alternative to the Imperium is a good move. They aren't perfect and are portrayed as being a little too focused on the past, but they're visible proof that the Imperium and humanity didn't have to turn out the way it did. I really like how their treatment of AIs as fully "kin" is in-fiction proof that technology and AI isn't the problem, it's using it to opress. The LoV are implied to have basically weathered the Dark Age of Technology mostly intact and that their AIs didn't rebel because they were fully integrated into their society and weren't used as slaves. In short, 40k is frequently very bad but it doesn't have to be, and there are at least a few recent developments that are positive. I think GW as a corporation can't be trusted to ever do the right thing (it is a publicly traded corporation after all), but a lot of the people who write for them are good eggs and might be allowed to make and do cool things.
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Jun 12, 2023 17:51
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Ominous Jazz posted:Real life fascists are drawn to 40k for the same reasons that they're into Star Wars.
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Jun 12, 2023 17:56
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Halloween Jack posted:It's extremely cool to run a hobby company in 2013 like TSR was run in 1993. It's good, to me. I didn't say it was good or cool, I just kind of liked that he admitted how much of an unqualified fuckup he was. And considering just how many times we read about a CEO being part of a white supremacist cult, stealing from their own company or just straight up raping their own employees, being a cautious boomer who was afraid of the internet is pretty forgivable all things considered.
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Jun 12, 2023 18:04
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They've been sand blasting the rough edges off of star wars for my whole life. I think that's why I like Andor so much. No jedi, just people ready to kill cops for their freedom
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Jun 12, 2023 18:06
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:I didn't say it was good or cool,
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Jun 12, 2023 18:12
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Halloween Jack posted:And by the same token, Disney has taken steps to make Star Wars more like 40k, with the emphasis on sacred superpowered bloodlines, and more importantly, framing all conflict as an eternal battle between Light and Darkness, not as any specific political conflict. This is unfortunately something that Disney just picked up and ran with from the old Expanded Universe. Star Wars had already gone that way for a long time and they just kept up trends even if they didn't keep the specific exact stories.
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Jun 12, 2023 18:41
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Are you guys not tired "Warhammer is fascist, actually?" Like, come on. Try "uh the way droids are treated in Star Wars is really hosed" or something for a change. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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