|
Are the majority of people who say that discrimination against trans people is a serious problem the same majority who think “changing genders” is morally wrong? There has to be some overlap in those populations for the percentages to be accurate, right?
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 19:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 23:48 |
|
|
ryde posted:That polling is pretty disheartening, since people who think changing gender is "morally wrong" has increased in two years according to it. I really hope thats an error. Considering the GOP has been manufacturing that issue for the same time, it makes sense. I AM GRANDO posted:Are the majority of people who say that discrimination against trans people is a serious problem the same majority who think “changing genders” is morally wrong? There has to be some overlap in those populations for the percentages to be accurate, right? Gotta be some of those “hate the sin, love the sinner” types left.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 19:44
|
|
|
at the end of the day the republican party is 1) (large percentage, quibble about the specifics) ride or die with trump and will never ever ever choose a different republican until trump keels over (and even then a third of this group will write him in the next five presidential elections after his death) 2) (smaller but still large percentage) that like trump saying the quiet part loud but are mad that this whole "getting indicted twice a month" thing is slowing down their plans to open minority death camps 3) the remainder just want to go back to the times when they got back money on their seven figure income thanks to tax loopholes and don't give a poo poo about social issues based on random polls like https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1667938913086853121 that's about 25-30% for each of the first two that will never cross the aisle with the other ever, so  at squaring that circle, i guess
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 19:44
|
|
|
ryde posted:That polling is pretty disheartening, since people who think changing gender is "morally wrong" has increased in two years according to it. I really hope thats an error. An error or a successful propaganda campaign. There are probably a lot of people who didn't think a lot about trans issues whose views were subsequently forced to solidify by someone screaming at them about how pedophiles in drag are corrupting your children at the library
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 19:44
|
|
|
haveblue posted:An error or a successful propaganda campaign. The thought that the propaganda campaign might be working is pretty terrifying to me, but I think there are other polls that show transgender acceptance increasing, so hopefully thats the trend that "sticks".
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 19:47
|
|
|
Craig K posted:at the end of the day the republican party is 11% "haven't heard enough" about a guy who was President for 4 years and has been in the news nonstop for the past 8 years, and well in the public eye for decades before that
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 19:47
|
|
|
like desantis is literally "trump on the social issues, if not louder, without the indictments", and if he's sitting at 30%
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 19:48
|
|
|
No Safe Word posted:11% "haven't heard enough" about a guy who was President for 4 years and has been in the news nonstop for the past 8 years, and well in the public eye for decades before that "i don't watch the news, its too depressing"
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 19:48
|
|
|
No Safe Word posted:11% "haven't heard enough" about a guy who was President for 4 years and has been in the news nonstop for the past 8 years, and well in the public eye for decades before that I'm assuming those are Trumpers that are absolutely, 100% for him but are too embarrassed to admit it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 19:50
|
|
|
Constantly shouting transphobia from the rooftops and every single news source apparently works, unsurprisingly.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 19:58
|
|
|
Craig K posted:like desantis is literally "trump on the social issues, if not louder, without the indictments", and if he's sitting at 30% he sounds weird. also the one gif of him laughing. is like an alien or some other non human in a human suit was told to " do human laugh emotion now"
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:00
|
|
|
ryde posted:I'm assuming those are Trumpers that are absolutely, 100% for him but are too embarrassed to admit it. Or they just decided to say "Maybe, I don't know" as a response to "Would you support Trump in the 2024 election" and it was grouped in with the "I don't know enough about him" set of responses.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:00
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:Constantly shouting transphobia from the rooftops and every single news source apparently works, unsurprisingly. It's really hard to not see that increase as propaganda working and the failure of compromise responses that have ceded the idea that actually maybe something does need to be done about trans women in sports and we need to find a compromise for a problem that doesn't exist.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:07
|
|
|
Alternatively: Americans are just incredibly awful people.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:11
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:It's really hard to not see that increase as propaganda working and the failure of compromise responses that have ceded the idea that actually maybe something does need to be done about trans women in sports and we need to find a compromise for a problem that doesn't exist. It's exactly that. People are very very fragile about gender and also don't know enough transgender people and transgender medicine so that the lies transphobes tell sounds vaguely true. Also people loving love Harry Potter and the creator is constantly making GBS threads out TERF bs.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:11
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:). Gender-segregated sports are discriminatory (the second definition, which doesn’t imply such discrimination is wrong) to begin with, and usually for good reasons. There are very good reasons to have women’s and men’s boxing. For some of those same reasons, it isn’t necessarily as simple as “trans-women can play women’s sports,” especially when transitioning does not mean the same thing to every trans person. Some simply live as their gender, some go on hormones, some have surgery. To be clear I’m not saying any of those are “more trans” than others. There are different concerns in competitive sports, though, than in deciding which bathroom someone uses, which pronouns to use, etc. I think that’s why we’re not seeing exposure to trans people increasing acceptance in sports like how gay marriage worked. There’s really no reason to be against gay marriage. There are actual issues with sports.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:13
|
|
|
No Safe Word posted:11% "haven't heard enough" about a guy who was President for 4 years and has been in the news nonstop for the past 8 years, and well in the public eye for decades before that I see they interviewed Ken Bone again.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:14
|
|
|
Trump's former lawyer who recently quit Trump's legal team was basically selling him down the river on CNN. - He said it was "absolutely right" to categorize the storage of documents as "not secure." - Says he knows of at least two instances where a Chinese national had access to areas storing those documents, but does not know if they were spies or if they just happened to wander in there. He says that either way it is not good that there are multiple known instances of people accessing those rooms for long periods of times and the best case scenario is that they were stored so negligently that two random Chinese nationals ended up hanging out in the room for long periods of time. - Said that the indictment is really strong and admits that the allegations "if true" are pretty serious. - He said he was kept in dark on moving boxes to avoid searches and had no knowledge of that. Claims that Trump and his inner circle did all of that on their own and did not clue in the legal team. - He said that he quit because there was constant infighting on the Trump legal team and Trump only wanted to listen to people who flattered him - “There are certain individuals that made defending the president much harder than it needed to be. There is one individual who works for him, Boris Epshteyn, who had really done everything he could to try to block us, to prevent us from doing what we could to defend the president.” - He says that Epshteyn was the one who organized the hiding of the documents to avoid the National Archives search and later FBI subpoena because Trump wanted to keep the documents and Boris was a "Yes Man" who just tried to please Trump regardless of the consequences. https://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2023/06/09/tl-parlatore-jake-tapper.cnn
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:14
|
|
|
Fork of Unknown Origins posted:Gender-segregated sports are discriminatory (the second definition, which doesn’t imply such discrimination is wrong) to begin with, and usually for good reasons. There are very good reasons to have women’s and men’s boxing. For some of those same reasons, it isn’t necessarily as simple as “trans-women can play women’s sports,” especially when transitioning does not mean the same thing to every trans person. Some simply live as their gender, some go on hormones, some have surgery. There's already rules in place regarding transgender women competing in sports and they've been able to for over a decade. The reason you don't get exposure to trans people in sports is because they don't have any special advantage. There is not really much issue with sports, it's being played up by transphobes.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:19
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:There's already rules in place regarding transgender women competing in sports and they've been able to for over a decade. Turns out mtf-oriented HRT causes athletic performance to be like that of a women, astonishing!
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:22
|
|
|
cat botherer posted:Yeah, there's plenty of sports where transgender women have been competing for a long time. If it's such an advantage, where are the transgender champions? Well we have: 1) Fallon Fox "cracking a woman's skull" except it was an orbital fracture, otherwise known as the most common injury in punchsports, and she's not remotely the champion in her weight class 2) Lia Thomas going from being an elite swimmer in mens category to being an elite simmer in women's, and literally losing to cis women in any other event and also a trans man. 4) That runner who came in 4th which denied the lady who came in 6th the honor, somehow
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:25
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:
"Yeah it's true, it's absolutely true that happened. Anyway, big if true???"
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:29
|
|
|
Fork of Unknown Origins posted:Gender-segregated sports are discriminatory (the second definition, which doesn’t imply such discrimination is wrong) to begin with, and usually for good reasons. There are very good reasons to have women’s and men’s boxing. For some of those same reasons, it isn’t necessarily as simple as “trans-women can play women’s sports,” especially when transitioning does not mean the same thing to every trans person. Some simply live as their gender, some go on hormones, some have surgery. Fight sports is always a funny example since it recognizes that even different weight classes between people of the same gender can be wildly outclassed fights. They don't let 145 pound cis woman punch a 135 pound cis woman as it stops being a fair fight. Gender is just a generally poo poo criteria for creating classes in sports.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:30
|
|
|
At the heart of the matter is (in theory) athletes gaining a competitive advantage by using exogenous hormones. I’m sure the state of Texas will institute mandatory and random drug screens, with punitive suspensions, for their HS football players any day now. Also men clearly need hormones to keep up with women in certain sports. Tatiana would have been best American male lifter in her weight class a few years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eaf5P6Xrpn8
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:30
|
|
|
Staluigi posted:"Yeah it's true, it's absolutely true that happened. Anyway, big if true???" He's referring specifically to the claims in the indictment that they have tapes of Trump bragging and showing off the documents in 2021 and 2022, that his team went around and his documents after they given the heads up from the National Archives and then did it again when they were warned that subpoena for the FBI to search was coming, and that Trump was on the tapes saying he knew he shouldn't have the documents and they were "still a secret." All of those things he was not present for and he is taking the lawyerly path of qualifying every statement he doesn't know for 100% certain.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:32
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:There's already rules in place regarding transgender women competing in sports and they've been able to for over a decade. I agree 100% on it being a tiny issue that’s blown out of proportion to get transphobes riled up. I do think it’s absurd to say that someone who was AMAB and has never gone through hormone therapy doesn’t have an advantage over someone who was AFAB in most sports. Historically we haven’t seen a lot of trans people in the upper echelon of sports because we haven’t seen a lot of trans people because they were suppressed or murdered. Throw in that most people aren’t world class athletes and the odds of the openly trans and world class athlete Venn diagrams intersecting has always been very low. Those odds are increasing now for what are very good reasons. cat botherer posted:Yeah, there's plenty of sports where transgender women have been competing for a long time. If it's such an advantage, where are the transgender champions? I addressed this in my post. I don’t want to call someone who hasn’t gone through HRT “less trans” than someone who has, because that’s not a part of transitioning for everybody. So when we say “trans women in sports” that’s going to include non-HRT trans as well, unless otherwise specified. I think it’s going to for a lot of people, which is why the question is more nuanced than gay marriage.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:33
|
|
|
Don't forget Laurel Hubbard, the Olympic weightlifter from New Zealand who not only didn't get a medal, she didn't even complete a lift. Like, she literally came in last. This did not satisfy the transphobes, who proceeded to accuse her of throwing on purpose in order to increase acceptance of trans people in sports.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:34
|
|
|
FizFashizzle posted:At the heart of the matter is (in theory) athletes gaining a competitive advantage by using exogenous hormones. High level weight lifting is another funny one to show how goofy classes and divisions in existing sports already are. One of the best natural advantages is being short.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:35
|
|
|
Fork of Unknown Origins posted:I agree 100% on it being a tiny issue that’s blown out of proportion to get transphobes riled up. Cool did anyone say that or is that a thing you made up yourself for the sake of argument. quote:Historically we haven’t seen a lot of trans people in the upper echelon of sports because we haven’t seen a lot of trans people because they were suppressed or murdered. Throw in that most people aren’t world class athletes and the odds of the openly trans and world class athlete Venn diagrams intersecting has always been very low. Those odds are increasing now for what are very good reasons. What are those very good reasons? quote:I addressed this in my post. I don’t want to call someone who hasn’t gone through HRT “less trans” than someone who has, because that’s not a part of transitioning for everybody. So when we say “trans women in sports” that’s going to include non-HRT trans as well, unless otherwise specified. I think it’s going to for a lot of people, which is why the question is more nuanced than gay marriage. No, all sports that allow trans competitors have hormone requirements. Queering Wheel posted:Don't forget Laurel Hubbard, the Olympic weightlifter from New Zealand who not only didn't get a medal, she didn't even complete a lift. Like, she literally came in last. Yeah they say Lia Thomas purposely tanked all her other events to throw people off.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:36
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:Fight sports is always a funny example since it recognizes that even different weight classes between people of the same gender can be wildly outclassed fights. They don't let 145 pound cis woman punch a 135 pound cis woman as it stops being a fair fight. Gender is just a generally poo poo criteria for creating classes in sports. Sure, except that a fight between a 145 lb cis man and 145 lb cis woman of relatively equal skill for their divisions would have the woman completely outclassed, so it’s not so much that gender is a poo poo criteria for creating classes as it is that it isn’t by itself sufficient in individual sports. See also: the US National Women’s Team in soccer losing to an under-15 boys team 5-2.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:39
|
|
|
Fork of Unknown Origins posted:Sure, except that a fight between a 145 lb cis man and 145 lb cis woman of relatively equal skill for their divisions would have the woman completely outclassed Would it?
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:42
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:Cool did anyone say that or is that a thing you made up yourself for the sake of argument. I guess no one has made that point explicitly if I assume every time someone says trans-woman they mean “trans woman who has gone through HRT.” Which is fine for this conversation but, again, is one of the nuances that gets lost in a survey question like “should trans-women be allowed to compete in women’s sports?” Jaxyon posted:
There are more openly trans people now because there’s less (still way way too much) risk on being openly trans. When I say “good reasons” I mean reasons that I’m happy for. Jaxyon posted:
In the survey that prompted this discussion do you think most of the respondents know this? I would be curious to see the results of a survey that asked something like “Do you support allowing trans-women to compete in women’s sports, provided that they have gone through HRT and their hormone levels are the same as cis-women?” I think you’d see some shift there.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:46
|
|
|
My favorite unintended consequence from all this bullshit was a highschool wrestler in Texas transitioning from female to male. He had been taking hormones for a while, always said he wanted to wrestle other guys even if he gets destroyed, was a total class act about the whole thing. In 2016 Texas high school sports adopted the “birth certificate rule” and forced him to compete as a female. Well he won two girls championships while tossing people through the Mexican announcers table and all the concerned parents were all of a sudden “no not like this.” quote:Beggs is transitioning from female to male and taking a low dose of testosterone. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna851106 Gumball Gumption posted:High level weight lifting is another funny one to show how goofy classes and divisions in existing sports already are. One of the best natural advantages is being short. Pocket Hercules! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DICbZm9lT4s FizFashizzle fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Jun 12, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:47
|
|
|
zoux posted:
Bathroom doors lock from the inside.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:48
|
|
|
Fork of Unknown Origins posted:I guess no one has made that point explicitly if I assume every time someone says trans-woman they mean “trans woman who has gone through HRT.” Which is fine for this conversation but, again, is one of the nuances that gets lost in a survey question like “should trans-women be allowed to compete in women’s sports?” Yes, it's an intentional misunderstanding that transhobes have been trying to mainstream. quote:In the survey that prompted this discussion do you think most of the respondents know this? I would be curious to see the results of a survey that asked something like “Do you support allowing trans-women to compete in women’s sports, provided that they have gone through HRT and their hormone levels are the same as cis-women?” I think you’d see some shift there. I'm replying to you, not the survey. I already stated I think the people responding in the survey are either ignorant or intentionally misled.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:49
|
|
|
Not for nothing but we still have people clutching pearls over intergender matches in fake punchsport pro wrestling; people are obviously going to be absolutely horrible morons about real punch/non-punch sports.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:49
|
|
|
FizFashizzle posted:Pocket Hercules!
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:50
|
|
|
I AM GRANDO posted:Are the majority of people who say that discrimination against trans people is a serious problem the same majority who think “changing genders” is morally wrong? There has to be some overlap in those populations for the percentages to be accurate, right? I think it's hard to figure this out from poll responses because it's very sensitive to how the question is worded. Like people answering two when you ask how many genders there are doesn't imply that they would say yes if you asked whether the X gender option on driver's licenses should be banned.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:52
|
|
|
Angry_Ed posted:Bathroom doors lock from the inside. Trump has been staying all this time inside his bathroom guarding the documents. Can you say the same about Sleepy Joe? 
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 23:48 |
|
|
yeah some of these polls are basically "Do you support BIG STRONG MEN in WIGS being put in boxing matches with your daughter?"
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 20:53
|
|
