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Trans issues, and specifically trans issues linked to sports and schools, are a major Republican focus point because they form an effective wedge issue on Democrats.Dems running on trans issues in close jurisdictions lose, so by making the issue central or necessary to campaign messaging, Republicans benefit themselves and divide the Dem vote.zoux posted:This is a pretty complex case, I'd like to say it's very similar to the arc you see for a lot of people who fall down the political conspiracy rabbit hole, but there's other stuff going on here. She suffered one of the worst incidents of sexual assault I've ever heard of, had a cancer diagnosis the year after, and then had her mainstream career destroyed because of her very bad and fake Benghazi story. Of course, she's now an unrepentant fascist but I'd be interested to know how many of these treks into the wilds of Qanon thought started off with some profound personal trauma. I can imagine a person after a few years like that casting around looking for anything to hold on to and here's this movement that is ready to exploit that. It's very common. Conspiracy theories and similar belief systems tend to develop around fulfilling various psychological needs in the participant populations, particularly a sense of self-efficacy or order.
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Jun 12, 2023 23:11
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snorch posted:I just want to point out that us squabbling over minutiae around the fringes of social issues is the precise outcome the Russians wanted. I do personally find it extremely annoying and honestly a bit distressing that it has become so central an issue recently that we could be looking at permanent republican rule (or attempts to create it anyway) all because of a few trans women in sports. Like, what the gently caress. This poo poo should not be on the national radar as a central issue in politics. It should be buried in a rulebook somewhere in the NCAA offices.
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Jun 12, 2023 23:12
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This is what fascists do. Nazis targeted queer people including transgender people using much the same rhetoric as Republicans are using now. edit: <-------- lol which one of you 3 got mad because I made fun of your lovely debate skills and strawmen
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Jun 12, 2023 23:18
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Regarding citations to actual research regarding gender and athletics, I found this article to be a helpful starting point when it came up during the trans athlete thread D&D had a year ago. e: The whole thing is worth a read, but it's also not short. Here is a snippet from the summary that may be relevant to the conversation: quote:When examining the performance differences between men’s and women’s divisions, confounders in the data abound. Teasing out the physiological and psychosocial components of the differences we observe is not yet possible. Even the role of testosterone, which is one of the mostly widely utilized performance enhancing drugs and thought to be the primary arbiter of the gender gap in sports, becomes less clear when looking at the research. Lastly, there is a paucity of research into how athletic performance changes when an individual transitions between genders. eviltastic fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Jun 12, 2023 |
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Jun 12, 2023 23:30
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zoux posted:She apparently also fell in love with a crazy contractor while she was in Baghdad, her friends say that was when they started noticing her acting strangely. well I mean when the indictment includes transcripts of "I, Donald Trump, am showing you, a random staffer, these illegal documents, because I, Donald Trump, stole these illegal documents illegally and am conspiring to keep them", there's only so much you can do I would very much like to listen to the backroom conversations of DeSantis et al about whether this gives them a shot
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Jun 12, 2023 23:30
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One of many frustrating things about the GOP propaganda is that at least at my work, the prevailing feeling is basically "I don't mind what they do but I wish they weren't so vocal about it" which is a) a loving horrible position and b) the increased visibility of it is largely from loving assholes trying to make it a wedge issue in the first place.
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Jun 12, 2023 23:39
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Google Jeb Bush posted:I would very much like to listen to the backroom conversations of DeSantis et al about whether this gives them a shot I can't imagine someone who was going to vote for Trump until this made them re-think it.
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Jun 12, 2023 23:55
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ryde posted:Why would that be the case? If you're normalizing on weight you're also normalizing on muscle mass too which is the primary variable in play when it comes to cis men vs cis women. Before I bother putting this response together for you, do at least one of you actually, sincerely believe that "cis men are on average much stronger than cis women of the same weight" is not a true statement? If this was just a hypothetical quibble from both of you about how people should show their sources even for fairly mundane and well known, well supported claims, fine, but I don't need to involved. If this is actual ignorance I can remedy, though, I'll be happy to do the work.
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Jun 12, 2023 23:59
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GlyphGryph posted:Before I bother putting this response together for you, do at least one of you actually, sincerely believe that "cis men are on average much stronger than cis women of the same weight" is not a true statement? If this was just a hypothetical quibble from both of you about how people should show their sources even for fairly mundane and well known, well supported claims, fine, but I don't need to involved. If this is actual ignorance I can remedy, though, I'll be happy to do the work. I am not the one making claims. I am pointing out the weaknesses in the claims being made.
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Jun 13, 2023 00:01
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That is why I asked if you sincerely believed the claim being made might not, in fact, true, rather than what you actually believed about the subject. If you're criticizing a claim you actually believe to be true and your argument is simply rhetorical, not substantative, there is no point in my getting involved. If you actually doubt whether the claim is true, then I can provide a good amount of evidence so you can walk away from this more informed and am happy to do so. Please just clarify so I know whether or not I'd be wasting my time.
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Jun 13, 2023 00:04
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GlyphGryph posted:That is why I asked if you sincerely believed the claim being made might not, in fact, true, rather than what you actually believed about the subject. If you're criticizing a claim you actually believe to be true and your argument is simply rhetorical, not substantative, there is no point in my getting involved. If you actually doubt whether the claim is true, then I can provide a good amount of evidence so you can walk away from this more informed and am happy to do so. Please just clarify so I know whether or not I'd be wasting my time. I would like to see your evidence please
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Jun 13, 2023 00:11
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GlyphGryph posted:That is why I asked if you sincerely believed the claim being made might not, in fact, true, rather than what you actually believed about the subject. If you're criticizing a claim you actually believe to be true and your argument is simply rhetorical, not substantative, there is no point in my getting involved. If you actually doubt whether the claim is true, then I can provide a good amount of evidence so you can walk away from this more informed and am happy to do so. Please just clarify so I know whether or not I'd be wasting my time. Post your stuff, or don't. Don't spend several posts hemming and hawing on whether you should post facts in a debate. I believe people overstate the importance of gender separation and sports, and I believe people are talking with greater certainty than they should, via extrapolation from performance data they're familiar with.
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Jun 13, 2023 00:14
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If you're struggling with concepts like "men are on average stronger than women" then your mind must be blown on a daily basis.
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Jun 13, 2023 00:16
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Trans kids are being prevented from taking lifesaving puberty blockers and possibly removed from supportive families, trans adults are being prevented from getting any medical treatment. You fuckers are complaining about undemonstrated effects on women's sports from single digit numbers of trans women. What the gently caress is wrong with you guys.
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Jun 13, 2023 00:21
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Adenoid Dan posted:Trans kids are being prevented from taking lifesaving puberty blockers and possibly removed from supportive families, trans adults are being prevented from getting any medical treatment. Demonstrating how well Republican framings work, even on people who think they're too smart for them.
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Jun 13, 2023 00:29
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Adenoid Dan posted:Trans kids are being prevented from taking lifesaving puberty blockers and possibly removed from supportive families, trans adults are being prevented from getting any medical treatment. Basically, we should accept no compromise on any of this stuff.
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Jun 13, 2023 00:30
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How many of these chuds cared about women's sports until they realized it could be a cudgel to hurt LGBT people?
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Jun 13, 2023 00:32
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cat botherer posted:Those are much bigger issues, don't get me wrong. However, sports are a big part of high school stuff in America, for better or worse it's for the worse. Excluding students based on gender identity is thus still a fairly big deal for those kids. I would imagine it would have ripple effects w.r.t. social isolation and such. Right, the main positives from youth sports are social - we should not be excluding kids who want to participate from these experiences!
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Jun 13, 2023 00:32
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Here are weightlifting strength standards by weight, and you can flip between genders if you'd like to: https://strengthlevel.com/strength-standards/male/lb Nothing there is going to surprise anyone.
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Jun 13, 2023 00:35
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Failed Imagineer posted:If you're struggling with concepts like "men are on average stronger than women" then your mind must be blown on a daily basis. Well, the interesting bit is that there's actually few factors to the claim - whether the average man is stronger than the average woman (which they would be even if there were no pound for pound differences that would be relevant to the weight-classed conversation since you're average man is significantly larger and heavier) vs whether men of a given weight class are, on average, stronger than women of a given weight class (which would indicate a pound for pound advantage) and then there's the additional question of whether top athletes of a given weight class show the same discrepancies. Of course, every one of those possible interpretations show men with an absolutely massive strength advantage over women, so it's a bit academic, but I think it's important to keep in mind since people who don't like the facts of the matter will often retreat along those points as they fall back. So it's best just to jump to the last, here, I think, especially since we're talking about athletics. Let's compare the top wordlwide fully tested records in the basic strength demos from some weight class across the gender divide in several categories: Squat: 123: 391F/644M (this one is a bit of an outlier, 2nd place is 551 which is more in keeping with historical norms for this weight class) 165: 465F/672M 198: 564F/750M Bench: 123: 292F/ 385M 165: 327F/ 490M 198: 341F/ 501M Dead: 123: 470F/ 598M 165: 551F/ 750M 198: 591F/ 824M Now, obviously lifting is a less popular sport among women than men, so there is some element of that to take into account - but you wouldn't expect disparity *this* high, even then. Your top women significantly underperform compared to non-elite male lifters. In addition, you could see several recent published studies on this phenomena outside just the level of elite athletes. Here's one I found interesting with additional factors like body mass versus lean body mass and other aspects of body composition taken into account: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7930971/ If I understood it correctly, study demonstrated that while raw body mass had a significant advantage for men, adjusting for lean body mass brought women and into rough strength parity for lower body motions like squats. but that there was still a significant difference in upper body strength like benches even then. I think its worth noting that in the studies I've seen and can recall, this difference is essentially eliminated completely by application of the appropriate hormones - those who have gone through HRT show averages on par with others of their gender, regardless of their birth sex. I will not go through the effort of citing those since no one has questioned that. Adenoid Dan posted:Trans kids are being prevented from taking lifesaving puberty blockers and possibly removed from supportive families, trans adults are being prevented from getting any medical treatment. Who in this thread has actually done that? GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Jun 13, 2023 |
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Jun 13, 2023 00:42
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Women might actually be better at rock climbing, and are probably better at extreme-distance ultrarunning, iirc. These are some kind of unusual exceptions, though.
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Jun 13, 2023 00:45
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Dpulex posted:How many of these chuds cared about women's sports until they realized it could be a cudgel to hurt LGBT people? Almost zero. Ohthehugemanatee posted:Here are weightlifting strength standards by weight, and you can flip between genders if you'd like to: The context is transgender folks, though.
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Jun 13, 2023 00:49
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Jaxyon posted:The context is transgender folks, though. There was much said about transgender folks. The comment you decided to take exception to and argue against specifically was a comparison of cisgender men to cisgender women. You have not, to my knowledge, expressed any similar doubt the for the transgender claims made, only that one specific one. A reminder for those who don't remember the claim that Jaxyon had been arguing against: Fork of Unknown Origins posted:a fight between a 145 lb cis man and 145 lb cis woman of relatively equal skill for their divisions would have the woman completely outclassed GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Jun 13, 2023 |
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Jun 13, 2023 00:51
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I don't really get why this matters when women's sports are treated like a joke in basically every other context in American culture. It just kinda reeks of misogyny. If a trans guy went into a boxing match, he'd probably be on testosterone since that's standard medical treatment for gender issues. So we'd just have a bearded guy basically juicing himself beating the poo poo out of a bunch of women. Is that really what people want?
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Jun 13, 2023 00:54
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cat botherer posted:Women might actually be better at rock climbing, and are probably better at extreme-distance ultrarunning, iirc. These are some kind of unusual exceptions, though. It actually did cross my mind that the only reason the Slovenian mountain goat lady wouldn't absolutely trounce every male rock climber on the planet is because some of them are nineteen feet tall and she is not. Against a similarly sized guy, I don't care if they have ten pounds more muscle or whatever, she's gonna backflip past him just to show off. Fake edit: Janja Garnbret. If anyone isn't aware of her consider watching her sport climb on the Big Complicated Wall in the Tokyo Olympics, I'm not entirely sure the woman is aware that gravity exists.
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Jun 13, 2023 00:56
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blossommirage posted:If a trans guy went into a boxing match, he'd probably be on testosterone since that's standard medical treatment for gender issues. So we'd just have a bearded guy basically juicing himself beating the poo poo out of a bunch of women. Is that really what people want? I do not think anyone in this thread wants that, no. It does appear that several conservatives have been very surprised to find recently that they don't want that either, though.
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Jun 13, 2023 00:56
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GlyphGryph posted:There was much said about transgender folks. The comment you decided to take exception to and argue against specifically was a comparison of cisgender men to cisgender women. You have not, to my knowledge, expressed any similar doubt the for the transgender claims made, only that one specific one. Again, that's why I am giving you context. Read farther back. That comment was in reply to this: Gumball Gumption posted:Fight sports is always a funny example since it recognizes that even different weight classes between people of the same gender can be wildly outclassed fights. They don't let 145 pound cis woman punch a 135 pound cis woman as it stops being a fair fight. Gender is just a generally poo poo criteria for creating classes in sports. Which was in response to this: Fork of Unknown Origins posted:Gender-segregated sports are discriminatory (the second definition, which doesn’t imply such discrimination is wrong) to begin with, and usually for good reasons. There are very good reasons to have women’s and men’s boxing. For some of those same reasons, it isn’t necessarily as simple as “trans-women can play women’s sports,” especially when transitioning does not mean the same thing to every trans person. Some simply live as their gender, some go on hormones, some have surgery. The context is still transender players in sports. Which, I agree with the other post, is a tiny thing that shouldn't be used as a wedge issue but it's incredibly effective, as we see in this thread.
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Jun 13, 2023 00:58
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GlyphGryph posted:There was much said about transgender folks. The comment you decided to take exception to and argue against specifically was a comparison of cisgender men to cisgender women. You have not, to my knowledge, expressed any similar doubt the for the transgender claims made, only that one specific one. lol a funny part about this one was jaxyon saying its pure speculation to talk about a 145 lb woman vs 145 lb man fight when actually, we do have an example of a fight between the best female muay thai fighter in the world and a male fighter in that actual weight class
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Jun 13, 2023 00:58
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actually the bouldering walls might be better, they're much shorter and people were going "oh that one took her multiple tries, I guess its overtuned"
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Jun 13, 2023 00:58
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Jaxyon posted:Again, that's why I am giving you context. Read farther back. That comment was in reply to this: The context of your specific criticism had nothing to do with transgender anything. I was responding to your specific criticism. I have provided the specific evidence you wanted to see, and pretty firmly supported the actual claim that was actually made that you actually took exception to. Are we on the same page there now, or not? Your doubt sufficiently sated? Either way, you can feel free return to the larger transgender conversation, but it isn't particularly relevant to your actual, specific criticism, the one I responded to - unless you want to make some argument that it is, which you have not yet done, and which I think would end badly for you if you tried.
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Jun 13, 2023 01:01
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blossommirage posted:I don't really get why this matters when women's sports are treated like a joke in basically every other context in American culture. It just kinda reeks of misogyny. I linked to a transgender man who's boxing other men and he's undefeated, but has trouble finding opponents due to the fragility of masculinity in cis men.
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Jun 13, 2023 01:02
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GlyphGryph posted:Who in this thread has actually done that? Did you see the custom title that someone bought?
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Jun 13, 2023 01:05
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If you want to narrow the focus, fine, but this risks getting into slapfight territory and my focus here is transgender issues.GlyphGryph posted:The context of your specific criticism had nothing to do with transgender anything. I was responding to your specific criticism. I have provided the specific evidence you wanted to see, and pretty firmly supported the actual claim that was actually made that you actually took exception to. You have not. You have provided data that indicates some athletic differences between cis men and women. You're assuming that will translate into fight results. Maybe it will. But you didn't provide data on fights. quote:Are we on the same page there now, or not? Your doubt sufficiently sated? Either way, you can feel free return to the larger transgender conversation, but it isn't particularly relevant to your actual, specific criticism, the one I responded to - unless you want to make some argument that it is, which you have not yet done, and which I think would end badly for you if you tried. My response to you is the same response to the others. Adjust your language with regards to certainty, as you're extrapolating.
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Jun 13, 2023 01:06
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Perhaps folks might want to look to the current title of the queer issues thread here in D&D I'm done talking about punchsports, but am happy to engage in general transgender athletic discussion or general transgender issue discussion as it's super duper relevant to current US politics.
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Jun 13, 2023 01:09
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Jaxyon posted:If you want to narrow the focus, fine, but this risks getting into slapfight territory and my focus here is transgender issues. If your focus was on trans issues, you would have been posting about trans issues, and not starting and then pressing a lengthy derail about the relative strength of cis men vs cis women, effectively shutting down the tans issues discussion everyone else was trying to have, in response to a statement that had jack poo poo to do with actual trans issues - or you at least would have gone through some effort to tie your criticism in to trans issues somehow, which you didn't bother to do. And which you are continuing to do now, except you're making it worse because now your argument is... what exactly - that strength is a negligible factor between fighters? When that is literally the reason for the initial weight division discussion you seemingly had no problem with? Why does it even matter, and why the hell are you so hung up on it? The difference in strength between men and women in my examples was considerable, and the difference in strength being a factor in fights is the whole premise of weight classes, so unless you're prepared to argue against weight classes next in your "focus on trans issues", kindly just stop and maybe actually talk about trans issues instead of making arguments that would make things worse for trans athletes? Adenoid Dan posted:Did you see the custom title that someone bought? Why do you think that title has a thing to do with trans women? I took it as a commentary on Jaxyon's repeated requests over the last two pages for direct evidence of cis men beating up cis women in the fighting sports.
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Jun 13, 2023 01:14
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Adenoid Dan posted:Trans kids are being prevented from taking lifesaving puberty blockers and possibly removed from supportive families, trans adults are being prevented from getting any medical treatment. No one ITT is complaining about effects in sports, what's being discussed is how to combat what has been shown to be an effective wedge issue. Now I personally figure that the people who actually have the data and experience to speak authoritatively on the subject are the actually managing and determining the standards of who gets to complete against who and given that I'm just a dumb Goon I'm gonna defer to them as they seemed to be working through things fine before the CHUDs noticed trans people exist. But for a lot of people it's something that really bothers them. I know it shouldn't but it does. The other effective wedge issue however is the subject you bring up about puberty blockers. And I'll readily admit my first impulse is to say that I'm not super comfortable with making changes on that scale on minors. Now I will refer back to my previous statement about deferring to the people who have been researching and studying gender dysphoria and it's treatment for years & that someone who actually knows poo poo has had these these debates and addressed them with actual data. The reason these are effective rhetorical devices for the CHUDs is that they reinforce the "they're forcing their beliefs onto others" which shifts the moral question from "we're just trying to do what's necessary to address their dysphoria and associated issues" to "they're Munchausen syndroming their kids." When you start talking about kids and raising them people get real emotionally charged. As it stands right now there isn't really a good concise response. Sidebar : George Conway just now on The ReidOut "Equal treatment under the law used to be a conservative thing along with" pause "well I guess it was all bullshit" Skex fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Jun 13, 2023 |
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Jun 13, 2023 01:25
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Google Jeb Bush posted:It actually did cross my mind that the only reason the Slovenian mountain goat lady wouldn't absolutely trounce every male rock climber on the planet is because some of them are nineteen feet tall and she is not. Against a similarly sized guy, I don't care if they have ten pounds more muscle or whatever, she's gonna backflip past him just to show off. Janja is a great climber but the top male climbers are no slouch either. As a fan of rock climbing I would absolutely watch a mixed competition. I think climbing has enough styles and nuances where different body proportions find certain moves easier so I have no idea where they don't do it already for bouldering but people more familiar with top level climbing might know some nuance. Speed climbing though, males have an absolute advantage where the male times are a full second ahead of the female ones normally.
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Jun 13, 2023 01:37
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Adenoid Dan posted:Trans kids are being prevented from taking lifesaving puberty blockers and possibly removed from supportive families, trans adults are being prevented from getting any medical treatment. It’s theoretically worth discussing that issue, in terms of what the public does or doesn’t know about it and what might change their views. Like, support for trans athletes is falling, and, it’s incumbent upon those of us who understand the nuance of the issue to try to clear up people’s misconceptions. And we can’t do that if we have misconceptions ourselves. The purpose of D&D is educational!  E: to be clear, if people actually were “complaining about undemonstrated effects on women's sports from single digit numbers of trans women” that would be bad, and it is a sadly common stupid thing to see on the internet these days, but I think it’s a pretty inaccurate description of the discussion Jaxyon posted:Which, I agree with the other post, is a tiny thing that shouldn't be used as a wedge issue but it's incredibly effective, as we see in this thread. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Jun 13, 2023 |
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Jun 13, 2023 01:44
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Men are on average stronger than women but I am on average weaker than every woman so it really throws off the curve.
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Jun 13, 2023 01:45
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Mellow Seas posted:I don’t think we’ve seen that in this thread at all. I haven’t seen any substantive disagreement on the issue of trans women in sports, and I certainly haven’t seen anything to make me doubt anybody’s support for trans rights generally. We've spent pages talking about gender in sports, which grew out of a discussion of transgender athletes. Only a fraction of transgender folks will do athletics, and they should be allowed to, but the point of the fascists is to focus the conversation on that, and it works well.
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Jun 13, 2023 01:47
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