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Prism posted:What's the source of the title right now? I need to know about the beautiful mind paper boxes, just the best and greatest mind paper. It's from the indictment.  e: beautiful mind paper box snipe tax 
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Jun 14, 2023 01:23
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Grognan posted:Trans is a partisan political club that uses belief in intangibly gendered minds needing medical treatment to change the meat suit to match. It will get pushback from people. Just because you can label dissent as bigotry doesn't mean the physical consequences of those treatments go away. They don't even do what you'd imagine them to do. Its probably why the trans lobby needs to absolutely control the language and presentation of things to head off actual evidence that shows that at best it doesn't make it worse most of the time. How was this only a sixer? Love, cat botherer
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Jun 14, 2023 01:39
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^^^^ As was explicitly stated in the previous transgender sports thread, and PMs with Koos, open transphobia is OK in D&D because we don't moderate positions, even though open bigotry is against the overall SA forum rules. This is the only comment I will make, so as to avoid probation. TheDisreputableDog posted:So I think there’s another side to the “science vs belief” coin, where positions that start out reasonable and fact-based can become inflexible and dogmatic. For example, studies have shown that most gender dysphoria in children abates with the onset of puberty. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to wonder if that means gd can be a natural phase or side effect of development, and if so, are puberty blockers the right course of action. In a (lowercase l) liberal environment, that discussion shouldn’t be considered trans-phobic. You want to give some data and cites for this? It's a common transphobe talking point and presupposes that large amounts of children are being given puberty blockers the moment they have dysphoria, and that's not the case. It's a fairly large step and not taken lightly, and usually is used to treat dysphoria that worsens at puberty. Source: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases...%20goes%20away. Your example of inflexibility and dogma was to repeat a talking point with zero support. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Jun 14, 2023 |
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Jun 14, 2023 01:41
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TheDisreputableDog posted:So I think there’s another side to the “science vs belief” coin, where positions that start out reasonable and fact-based can become inflexible and dogmatic. For example, studies have shown that most gender dysphoria in children abates with the onset of puberty. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to wonder if that means gd can be a natural phase or side effect of development, and if so, are puberty blockers the right course of action. In a (lowercase l) liberal environment, that discussion shouldn’t be considered trans-phobic. I think the onus would be on you to show that there are harmful effects of puberty blockers or any other reason to be concerned about their use.
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Jun 14, 2023 02:07
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Jaxyon posted:You want to give some data and cites for this? Sure quote:Evidence from the 10 available prospective follow-up studies from childhood to adolescence (reviewed in the study by Ristori and Steensma28) indicates that for ~80% of children who meet the criteria for GDC, the GD recedes with puberty. Instead, many of these adolescents will identify as non-heterosexual.17,29 quote:Your example of inflexibility and dogma was to repeat a talking point with zero support. An NIH paper reviewing multiple studies seems like a better source than a for-profit FAQ with a “book an appointment” button, but I’m open to being wrong. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 14, 2023 02:08
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Sure Only 1 in 7 minors with diagnosed gender dysphoria are on puberty blockers, so it looks like their doctors are being even more cautious than "80% grow out of it" would imply.
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Jun 14, 2023 02:17
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 I hate you all. Six loving pages of this ludicrous back and forth argument about argument about ultimatums about drifting intuitions and googled sources, all framed entirely by the Republican narrative. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 14, 2023 02:17
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Sure (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 14, 2023 02:18
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Thank you. Though that study is more of an overall analysis of the literature that's calling for more research on adolescent onset GD. quote:An NIH paper reviewing multiple studies seems like a better source than a for-profit FAQ with a “book an appointment” button, but I’m open to being wrong. Don't get pissy with me because I asked you to support something on a sensitive subject. Mayo clinic is a pretty decent source, though the page I linked isn't a research paper. Nor does any of this back up your point that trans activists and allies are inflexible and dogmatic, but I appreciate the citation for your claim. Nor did you provide support for your worries on puberty blockers.
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Jun 14, 2023 02:19
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Grognan posted:J.K. Rowling is completely correct in her positions and they should be read. J.K. Rowling is basically the perfect example of "There is a table of 9 people, and one of them is an open nazi who does a nazi salute and nobody objects, there are 9 nazis at the table." Adjacency to professional bigots and providing cover for them pretty much muddies anything she'll ever say on the issue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ou_xvXJJk7k Here is a helpful video I encourage everyone to watch if they haven't already. For the record I think all of this is transphobic trash and the only actual room for any kind of debate or discussion about trans health policies that isn't explicitly mired in outright bigotry or histrionic patronizing at all is transgender vs birth gender players in professional sports.
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Jun 14, 2023 02:25
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Nelson Mandingo posted:For the record I think all of this is transphobic trash and the only actual room for any kind of debate or discussion about trans health policies that isn't explicitly mired in outright bigotry or histrionic patronizing at all is transgender vs birth gender players in professional sports. I'd absolutely agree with that assessment. Transgender people and any medical treatment they receive are simply not remotely as disputed in science as they are in public.
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Jun 14, 2023 02:28
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Jaxyon posted:I'd absolutely agree with that assessment.
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Jun 14, 2023 02:37
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TheDisreputableDog posted:An NIH paper reviewing multiple studies seems like a better source than a for-profit FAQ with a “book an appointment” button, but I’m open to being wrong. I was not aware that the university of Tampere was a part of the United States national institutes of health. What you failed to quote, among others, was this University of Tampere posted:There is little empirical knowledge regarding young people who experience their first signs of GD in adolescence, well after the onset of puberty, especially regarding biological girls.50,100 Among a treatment-seeking sample in the UK, 18% experienced their first feelings of GD in adolescence46 compared with approximately two-thirds of the Finnish sample,39 and for the majority of adolescent-onset cases, GD presented in the context of severe mental disorders and general identity confusion. In such situations, appropriate treatment for psychiatric comorbidities may be warranted before conclusions regarding gender identity can be drawn. Gender-referred adolescents actually display psychopathology to the same extent as mental health–referred youth Bolding mine. This is a publication way of throwing your hands up in the air and saying we don't know, no one knows. So maybe shut the gently caress up about "academic sources" backing your position. And don't even get me started on what Uppsala University was up to during WW2 and before, talk about race science hubs, woof!
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Jun 14, 2023 02:46
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TheDisreputableDog posted:So I think there’s another side to the “science vs belief” coin, where positions that start out reasonable and fact-based can become inflexible and dogmatic. For example, studies have shown that most gender dysphoria in children abates with the onset of puberty. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to wonder if that means gd can be a natural phase or side effect of development, and if so, are puberty blockers the right course of action. In a (lowercase l) liberal environment, that discussion shouldn’t be considered trans-phobic. Well, let's see what the study you mislabelled as coming from the NIH had to say: quote:The most commonly used guidelines for the treatment of GD in children and adolescents are those of The Endocrine Society and the Standard of Care from the World Professional Association for Transgender Health,31 which are based on the so-called Dutch Model protocols published and practiced at the Amsterdam Gender Clinic in the Netherlands.32 According to your own source, you're making a false equivalency between prepubertal GD and treatment options designated for after the onset of puberty.
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Jun 14, 2023 02:53
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Rappaport posted:I was not aware that the university of Tampere was a part of the United States national institutes of health. What you failed to quote, among others, was this As a reminder, this was the sole citation given for 3 different claims: 1) Transgender allies/activists are inflexible and dogmatic 2) Most children grow out of GD 3) Usage of puberty blockers is a questionable treatment It maybe supports #2.
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Jun 14, 2023 02:56
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That is the study Tim Pool used when 'debating' Lance from the Serfs and it comes with major limitations, such as what some of the studies included (people who did not sign back up for treatment being counted as those that detransitioned, for example). The 'debate' isn't worth listening to, but that study isn't great evidence for much other than there needs to be more, better research, and according to Lance, the author has walked back a lot of the interpretations from it.
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Jun 14, 2023 03:23
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cat botherer posted:The mods disagree with that assessment. Settle down, i'm doing a Reverse Doctor Strangelove arm struggle to not push buttons on the occasional Bad Opinions here because i'm unsure about how this all interacts with koos "we don't moderate positions" policy which has mostly been a good. The mod position is currently undecided (unless koos or an admin weighs in with a decision)
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Jun 14, 2023 03:24
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Nelson Mandingo posted:For the record I think all of this is transphobic trash and the only actual room for any kind of debate or discussion about trans health policies that isn't explicitly mired in outright bigotry or histrionic patronizing at all is transgender vs birth gender players in professional sports. Very few medical professionals with actual credentials are ever going to claim that estrogen is a sport performance enhancer, or that reducing one's testosterone levels to at or below the AFAB average is going to benefit performance. The TERF predicted result of 'transgender women dominating women's sports' has never been remotely real. Even in combat sports, the area one would most predict any advantage would be visible in, there have been a total of two competing transgender women in MMA. Fallon Fox and Alana McLaughlin. Fox retired at 5-1 almost a decade ago now, and McLaughlin's in training for her second fight, after winning the first by submission with her (cisgender female) opponent handily outstriking her throughout the bout. Even then it doesn't matter. Women's professional sports are barely existent from a commercial view, and absolutely no one in the discussion seems to acknowledge transgender dudes exist, much less might want to play sports. Despite the most successful current transgender person in combat sports being boxer Patricio Manuel, who's 3-0 in men's Super Featherweight. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Jun 14, 2023 |
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Jun 14, 2023 03:26
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Jaxyon posted:1) Transgender allies/activists are inflexible and dogmatic TBF that's not really the kind of thing you can justify with a citation "I have here a peer-reviewed, statistically rigorous study suggesting that Joe is a punk-rear end bitch" is not going to be convincing to Joe no matter how large the sample size is.
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Jun 14, 2023 03:29
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Fister Roboto posted:So what do you do if you can't change people's minds? You said yourself that this is all happening because "the pro-trans side lost the debate", and that says to me that that's not a very effective strategy. Especially when you consider all the dirty tricks like gerrymandering that the other side is willing to pull to fix the debate in their favor. If people overwhelmingly support your opponents and you can't change their minds, then you're deep poo poo! Framing this as a "debate" is a little misleading, because this is the fight for public support. And I bang on this drum a lot here, but public support is crucial for any sort of political change. Whether you're pursuing peaceful electoral change or violent resistance, "don't be massively outnumbered" is a basic criteria for any sort of success, and that means winning people to your cause. If they're leaning against us, then our choices are "change their minds", "befriend a number of high-ranking generals with a low opinion of democracy", or "lose all our rights and probably be murdered in the loving street". Given that #2 is unlikely at best, and #3 is not really a desirable outcome, we really don't have any choice but to change as many minds as possible, no matter how long it takes or how difficult it is. If the people sitting on the fence want to debate trans rights, then we really cannot afford to tell them to gently caress off. Maybe you don't think the arguments are worth listening to, but there's plenty of people who do not know very much about these issues at all and need basic questions answered. If the GOP are the only ones willing to give those answers, then they're going to have the advantage in winning those people over. The fight for public support never ends. The lovely laws that have been passed can always be repealed, although that doesn't undo the harm the laws did in the meantime. But no matter how many victories the other side wins, and no matter how solidly they seem to have entrenched those victories, they can always be rolled back by a persistent political movement willing to keep working at it no matter how long it takes.
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Jun 14, 2023 03:32
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Google Jeb Bush posted:Settle down, i'm doing a Reverse Doctor Strangelove arm struggle to not push buttons on the occasional Bad Opinions here because i'm unsure about how this all interacts with koos "we don't moderate positions" policy which has mostly been a good. The mod position is currently undecided (unless koos or an admin weighs in with a decision) Surely the Confederate States had some good points to bear about international commerce, right? You can take the hood off. Dungeons and Debates is a massive joke meant to engender these awful, bigoted "points of view" because someone thought it was funny, and the sleepy webmaster does not care. You are signing off on monstrosities and denying people their identity because you are "unsure" how it all fits in with the grand joke. That's great. That is grand. You are playing your part. Meanwhile, we, those in the trenches of posting awful poo poo, have to dissect studies from the university of loving Tampere about whether people should have basic human rights. At least Koos got his desire, someone cited something, without understanding it or its context! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 14, 2023 03:33
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TheDisreputableDog posted:In a (lowercase l) liberal environment, that discussion shouldn’t be considered trans-phobic. I do agree that there are important conversations we currently can't really have in the existing political climate, at least - but that's because transphobes and bigots of other stripes have a tendency to dishonestly use superficial permutations of those arguments as cover for their actual arguments, while neglecting the actual substance underlying them. Of course, by we I mean us here on the forums and us in general as part of public discussion - those discussions do happen between doctor and professionals behind closed doors, as far as I can tell, by people with grounding in the actual facts, and considering how immediately poisoned any attempt to discuss them becomes, it is better at the current time to just... mostly not have them. Because unless you actually know the person you're talking to personally and know they aren't using it as a cover for bigotry, that is by the most likely reason they want to discuss it at all because of everything I just said. The bigots have basically made real, meaningful discussion about many things related to a great many things impossible in their endless quest for topics to politicize with empty propaganda, which is unfortunate.
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Jun 14, 2023 03:35
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Rappaport posted:Surely the Confederate States had some good points to bear about international commerce, right? You should probably take a look at the specific post being discussed (or Leper's Colony) before you make further complaints about the "D&D mindset" or whatever the gently caress you're complaining about Grognan posted:(USER WAS PERMABANNED FOR THIS POST) Kalit fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Jun 14, 2023 |
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Jun 14, 2023 03:36
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Kalit posted:You should probably take a look at the post being discussed (or Leper's Colony) before you make further complaints? This would be a salient point had not the thread spent the last 3 or so pages discussing "trans athletes" and other right wing talking points!
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Jun 14, 2023 03:37
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Google Jeb Bush posted:Settle down, i'm doing a Reverse Doctor Strangelove arm struggle to not push buttons on the occasional Bad Opinions here because i'm unsure about how this all interacts with koos "we don't moderate positions" policy which has mostly been a good. The mod position is currently undecided (unless koos or an admin weighs in with a decision) Sorry man, this must be terrible for someone like you.
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Jun 14, 2023 03:37
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Kalit posted:You should probably take a look at the specific post being discussed (or Leper's Colony) before you make further complaints about the "D&D mindset" or whatever the gently caress you're complaining about That's all SAD and fluffdaddy, brought in because d&d mods didn't do the right thing.
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Jun 14, 2023 03:45
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Mischievous Mink posted:That's all SAD and fluffdaddy, brought in because d&d mods didn't do the right thing. Didn't do the right thing? Mods can't even execute regular bans by themselves, much less permas, what the hell is this poo poo?
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Jun 14, 2023 03:57
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Mischievous Mink posted:That's all SAD and fluffdaddy, brought in because d&d mods didn't do the right thing. E: Corrected by World Famous W Kalit fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Jun 14, 2023 |
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Jun 14, 2023 03:58
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Kalit posted:You should probably take a look at the specific post being discussed (or Leper's Colony) before you make further complaints about the "D&D mindset" or whatever the gently caress you're complaining about This is not a hill to die on, Kalit.
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Jun 14, 2023 04:04
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Kalit posted:Dang, I didn't realize a new thread had been created in SAD about that transphobic post earlier today and had already been resolved/moved within a handful of hours. Maybe I should give that new(-ish) subforum some credit for its efficiency! Whom is this supposed to impress, exactly? Why do you behave this way? I am bamboozled, and it is not clear whom you are helping here. It certainly is not the people who are being trodden upon, called names, and having legislation aimed particularly against them.
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Jun 14, 2023 04:06
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Kalit posted:Dang, I didn't realize a new thread had been created in SAD about that transphobic post earlier today and had already been resolved/moved within a handful of hours. Maybe I should give that new(-ish) subforum some credit for its efficiency!
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Jun 14, 2023 04:06
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World Famous W posted:check the last page of small question and topics Fair enough, I forgot about that thread. Thank you for the correction and sorry for my sarcasm on that point.
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Jun 14, 2023 04:09
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Xand_Man posted:TBF that's not really the kind of thing you can justify with a citation Yes, I realize that's a very hard position to support, which is why I asked  TheDisreputableDog posted:Sorry man, this must be terrible for someone like you. Oh hey you're back, do you want to respond to any of the criticisms of your source and supply back up for the rest of your post? Google Jeb Bush posted:Settle down, i'm doing a Reverse Doctor Strangelove arm struggle to not push buttons on the occasional Bad Opinions here because i'm unsure about how this all interacts with koos "we don't moderate positions" policy which has mostly been a good. The mod position is currently undecided (unless koos or an admin weighs in with a decision) Looks like an admin weighed in Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Jun 14, 2023 |
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Jun 14, 2023 04:16
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Boris Galerkin posted:It's from the indictment. The best part about this photo is when you realize there’s a stack of boxes in the bathtub just barely peeking out above the top right of the shower curtain
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Jun 14, 2023 05:10
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Kalit posted:You should probably take a look at the specific post being discussed (or Leper's Colony) before you make further complaints about the "D&D mindset" or whatever the gently caress you're complaining about Rappaport posted:This would be a salient point had not the thread spent the last 3 or so pages discussing "trans athletes" and other right wing talking points!
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Jun 14, 2023 05:15
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Google Jeb Bush posted:Settle down, i'm doing a Reverse Doctor Strangelove arm struggle to not push buttons on the occasional Bad Opinions here because i'm unsure about how this all interacts with koos "we don't moderate positions" policy which has mostly been a good. The mod position is currently undecided (unless koos or an admin weighs in with a decision) if people post bigotry push the loving buttons on it it isn't that hard koos's policy can cover all the people not posting bigoted poo poo
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Jun 14, 2023 06:13
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Immediately and brutal crackdowns on transphobia has a chilling effect, which is good. Transphobes are like any bigots motivated by cruelty, hatred, and the gleeful idea of a punching bag they can attack freely and without reservation. Seeing others punished for that makes them pause and shrink away. Like with the other fascists, you can't logic people out of what they weren't logic'd into, but making it clear that being a transphobe is not fun, is not safe, and will result in consequences and make many of them think again and start to find reasons why trans people can't really be so bad after all. There is a time and place for conversation, and definitely a good idea to determine what the proper consensus is, but once people kramer in with hateful screeds and talk about how medicine is all fake, there is no convincing to be done, you shut them up and get them out.
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Jun 14, 2023 06:49
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Jaxyon posted:As was explicitly stated in the previous transgender sports thread, and PMs with Koos, open transphobia is OK in D&D because we don't moderate positions, even though open bigotry is against the overall SA forum rules. I'm too stupid to avoid probation so I will mention that "we don't moderate positions" is a lie and I knew that poster was doomed 100% for their position So why we keeping the lie on official record
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Jun 14, 2023 06:49
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Staluigi posted:I'm too stupid to avoid probation so I will mention that "we don't moderate positions" is a lie and I knew that poster was doomed 100% for their position It's not a lie, though. Koos Group confirmed, as recently as 1 June 2023, that "It's D&D policy not to moderate positions, even ones that are disgusting and vile". Koos Group posted:It's D&D policy not to moderate positions, even ones that are disgusting and vile, in the hope that discussing them will allow everyone to see what is wrong with them. 
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Jun 14, 2023 06:59
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Also never forget that the transphobic push is very clearly a wedge to re-impose legally enforced gender conformity and roll back existing rights. It's no coincidence it ramped up after Roe vs Wade was struck down. The fascists are winning, and they know it.
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Jun 14, 2023 07:32
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