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ArmZ posted:europeans are not uniquely evil. there examples of this kind of human behavior across all of history. humans are humans. the Atlantic slave trade was actually pretty unique in that enslaved people were considered explicitly to not be human beings in cultural or legal terms slavery has been practiced worldwide but stuff like the organized breeding of slaves as farm stock, slavehood being inherited by descendants without any limitations and the several legal, religious and scientific arguments against enslaved people possessing personhood or capacity for agency & human intellect are all unique to the atlantic slave trade i dont think thats because europeans are uniquely capable of evil but the portrayal of american/caribbean chattel slavery as being some totally common thing thats happened around the globe all across history bugs me it shifts the responsibility from the institutions that created and propagated the practice towards 'well y'know european slavers bought slaves from african/arab slavers(who didn't practice chattel slavery)' arguments and trivializes how uniquely cruel and unprecedented the atlantic slave trade was
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Jun 15, 2023 18:12
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FirstnameLastname posted:the Atlantic slave trade was actually pretty unique in that enslaved people were considered explicitly to not be human beings in cultural or legal terms
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Jun 15, 2023 21:46
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FirstnameLastname posted:the Atlantic slave trade was actually pretty unique in that enslaved people were considered explicitly to not be human beings in cultural or legal terms Slaves being worked to death in the salt mines of Basra: "Thank god we aren't chattel, that would be awful." Also, Wikipedia posted:In the Muslim culture of the middle ages blackness became increasingly identified with slavery.[32] This was justified by appeals to a specific interpretation of the biblical story of Curse of Ham that posited Ham had been cursed by Noah in two ways, the first, the turning of his skin black, and the second, that his descendants would be doomed to slavery.[32] Muslim slave traders would use this as a pretext to enslave blacks, including black Muslims.[32] In the late 14th century a black king of Bornu wrote a letter to the sultan of Egypt complaining of the continual slave raids perpetrated by Arab tribesmen, which were devastating his lands and resulting in the mass enslavement of the black Muslim population of the region.[33] In Al-Andalus, the area of medieval Iberia under Islamic control, black Muslims could be legally held as slaves.[34] This all occurred despite the orthodox Muslim jurist position that no Muslim, regardless of race, could be enslaved.[27] Even as late as the 19th century many of the common people in Islamic society still believed that enslavement based on skin color, rather than based on religion, was approved by the religious laws of Islam.[32]
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Jun 15, 2023 22:29
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In a sense, muslims were the original white people
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Jun 15, 2023 22:59
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A Buttery Pastry posted:that europe was in a position to do it, and have it be in the material interest of the ruling class to go to those lengths, doesn't have anything to do with europeans in particular though. germans aren't uniquely evil for birthing nazi germany, even if nazi germany was a unique evil. i wasn't saying it did, i said the opposite of that i was only saying the atlantic slave trade or something like it isn't something there's examples of across history like the person i was replying to was saying. like, slavery's bad, ill be brave enough to say that much, but the atlantic slave trade was wayyy more than just the slavery and slave-trading and those parts just aren't shared by other practices i don't think it's because Europeans are uniquely evil or anything lol, it's because there were people who had a motive to do it at a time they could do it, while there weren't enough people with enough motive and/or ability to stop it until way later, just like every other great historical evil i can think of
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Jun 15, 2023 23:30
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christmas boots posted:In a sense, muslims were the original white people according to the state department, arabs are white
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Jun 15, 2023 23:30
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FirstnameLastname posted:i wasn't saying it did, i said the opposite of that I quoted part of this earlier but clearly you need to read the whole thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Saharan_slave_trade
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Jun 16, 2023 03:21
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The transatlantic slave trade I think is just especially notable because of its ongoing influence and repercussions that perhaps wildly outlast its strict material consequences, half a country basically building its entire identity around it and going to war to preserve it, and even managing to do so partly after losing. Basically the entire US is still hard in the mindset of blacks as slaves and whites as slaveowners, specifically.
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Jun 16, 2023 08:37
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Slavery in Brazil and its legacy is no joke either.
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Jun 16, 2023 09:16
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we should unironically do this https://twitter.com/JamesDuddridge/status/1669285798301122563?s=20
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Jun 16, 2023 10:35
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Cerebral Bore posted:buddy, like half the chinese economy is made up of directly state-owned enterprises and the other half is eminently commandable whenever the government decides to It's about a quarter SOEs actually. https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/has-china-given-state-owned-enterprise-reform America's government spending as a percentage of GDP is 42%, China's is 33%. https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/exp@FPP/USA/FRA/SWE/ITA/ZAF/IND/CHN The question is not does China have a commandable economy but does it have a command economy. The answer is no, it has a mixed economy, more of a market economy in pure terms than America. As I said, it's more about how it exercises that control than the raw amount of it.
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Jun 16, 2023 12:28
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Eeeeeh I feel like US government spending as a percentage has to be taken with a grain of salt because so much of it is tied in with the MIC compared to anywhere else. What's the non MIC percentage?
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Jun 16, 2023 12:34
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FirstnameLastname posted:african/arab slavers(who didn't practice chattel slavery) Chattel slavery just means one person owns another. This can be contrasted with other types of slavery such as when people are owned by a polity or other collective or serfdom where people are bound to the land. I'm no expert on the subject but I understand at least arab slave traders practiced chattel slavery. The American example is unique in other ways, some of which you have correctly identified, but mainly I understand for it's intersection with capitalism.
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Jun 16, 2023 12:37
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PsychoInternetHawk posted:Eeeeeh I feel like US government spending as a percentage has to be taken with a grain of salt because so much of it is tied in with the MIC compared to anywhere else. What's the non MIC percentage? Why do you think military spending doesn't count? It's the classic type of command spending! We're not trying to measure benefits provided to citizens, just how much the flow of resources in the economy is directed by the government.
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Jun 16, 2023 12:44
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https://twitter.com/MRacMC/status/1669175866285494273?t=-nNEFKxn2vr3IiR9BUArRg&s=19
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Jun 16, 2023 13:01
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Weka posted:It's about a quarter SOEs actually. You're not wrong about the mixed nature of both economies, but I think you're understating the qualitative difference, which is more important than the raw numbers. The Alibaba Group is a private firm that presumably doesn't count in China's 33%, the same way Amazon is a private firm that doesn't count in the US's 42%, but the Chinese government has a far higher level of control over Alibaba than the US government has over Amazon. In fact, Amazon probably has more control over the US government than vice versa. Similarly, the qualitative difference matters in what those government spending percentages convey. Take as a random example, military production and procurement of fifth-generation fighter aircraft. The US and China both spend big money on this, adding to those percentages of government GDP spending. In the US, spending on the F-35 goes to Lockheed Martin, a private corporation responsible for 10% of all Pentagon spending, which then turns around and funnels significant amounts of that money back into lobbying. In China, spending on the J-20 goes to the Chengdu Aerospace Corporation, a subsidiary of the Aviation Industry Corporation of China, which is a state-owned company. Spending on both planes contributes to the percentage of government spending in the economy, but they reflect very different things. Government spending at a state-owned firm is very different from government spending at Lockheed Martin, but in the raw numbers for government spending as a share of GDP there's no distinction between the two.
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Jun 16, 2023 13:05
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A better distinction might be government and state-owned company payrolls? The rest of government spending is just money flowing into private businesses.
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Jun 16, 2023 15:07
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vyelkin posted:You're not wrong about the mixed nature of both economies, but I think you're understating the qualitative difference, which is more important than the raw numbers. The Alibaba Group is a private firm that presumably doesn't count in China's 33%, the same way Amazon is a private firm that doesn't count in the US's 42%, but the Chinese government has a far higher level of control over Alibaba than the US government has over Amazon. In fact, Amazon probably has more control over the US government than vice versa. this is a good post imo
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Jun 16, 2023 15:19
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No, Amazon does not have more control over the US government than vice versa. Come on.
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Jun 16, 2023 16:47
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Quotey posted:No, Amazon does not have more control over the US government than vice versa. Come on. If this were the case, amazon would pay any of their 90 billion dollars in back taxes. but they don't, do they? The weak serve the strong.
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Jun 16, 2023 16:54
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bedpan posted:according to the state department, arabs are white every goddamn time I think I’ve found a piping hot take the loving us government has me beat
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Jun 16, 2023 17:54
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Weka posted:Chattel slavery just means one person owns another. This can be contrasted with other types of slavery such as when people are owned by a polity or other collective or serfdom where people are bound to the land. I'm no expert on the subject but I understand at least arab slave traders practiced chattel slavery. whoops i typed that just thinking subsaharan when i typed that my b, north african and arab slavers deffo practiced chattel slavery
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Jun 16, 2023 18:18
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China's economy is communist because I said so
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Jun 16, 2023 18:34
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talk about a commanded economy!!!
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Jun 16, 2023 18:38
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christmas boots posted:every goddamn time I think I’ve found a piping hot take the loving us government has me beat
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Jun 16, 2023 19:15
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A Buttery Pastry posted:what's the hot take? are you saying they (and thus jesus) are chinese-mongolian? That Muslims were the original white people but nevermind all I want to hear more about Mongolian Jesus
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Jun 16, 2023 19:32
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come to think of it jesus' younger brother was chinese, so i guess there's something to that theory
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Jun 16, 2023 19:41
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The roots of Japan were ancient Israel
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Jun 16, 2023 20:13
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christmas boots posted:That Muslims were the original white people but nevermind all I want to hear more about Mongolian Jesus
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Jun 16, 2023 20:56
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Cerebral Bore posted:come to think of it jesus' younger brother was chinese, so i guess there's something to that theory we stan a Qing
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Jun 16, 2023 21:44
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i mean technically the exact opposite but w/e
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Jun 16, 2023 21:45
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vyelkin posted:Government spending at a state-owned firm is very different from government spending at Lockheed Martin, but in the raw numbers for government spending as a share of GDP there's no distinction between the two. I don't think this is really true. If Lockheed Martin were a SOE it would function in a very similar manner, that's largely the point of SOEs, to use the competitive advantages offered by the traditional capitalist business model. There are usually more limitations to the actions available to a government owned company but it is still a fairly similar working process. It's as you say, the control it exercises over businesses, Alibaba has a party committee and government employees embedded within it. It seems to me as an outside observer that this control is more often negative than positive. Eg Ant group can't do it's micro loans business. There might come a directive to increase poverty reduction measures but how that's done is left up to the business. Of course there are many instances of positive control too. I don't really see this as a traditional command economy, which is a brute force method of establishing socialism. It's more of a light touch, course corrections where neccessary method. I'm just some idiot on the internet though but that's my hot take. tokin opposition posted:China's economy is communist because I said so I guess you disagree with the CPC then. FirstnameLastname posted:whoops i typed that just thinking subsaharan when i typed that my b, north african and arab slavers deffo practiced chattel slavery Do you know what, uh, ownership structure was used in the sub-saharan slavery feeding in to the trans Atlantic trade?
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Jun 16, 2023 22:56
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I command you all to shut up about economies!!
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Jun 16, 2023 22:57
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christmas boots posted:we stan a Qing a Qing of Qings even
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Jun 16, 2023 23:05
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Weka posted:
lol i almost added a clause abt the coastal kingdoms and tribes that intersected directly with the transatlantic route since well, they were the hookups raiding inland and capturing slaves but afaik only started doing that stuff when Portuguese sailors started coming thru trying to steal people tho and before that weren't practicing chattel slavery as their own thing im not an expert on it or anything tho
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Jun 17, 2023 01:17
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christmas boots posted:i mean technically the exact opposite but w/e tired: stan a ming wired: stan a qing inspired: stan a taiping
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Jun 17, 2023 14:00
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https://twitter.com/huunnahh/status/1670136272940314624?t=jVcBq_x-WIzHSJbXsqIgtA&s=19
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Jun 18, 2023 03:58
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gradenko_2000 posted:https://twitter.com/huunnahh/status/1670136272940314624?t=jVcBq_x-WIzHSJbXsqIgtA&s=19
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Jun 18, 2023 09:22
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https://twitter.com/Justinhead1982/status/1670580514464452609?s=20
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Jun 20, 2023 04:13
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As many already pointed out, I love that Northern Ireland just dissolves or is immediately assimilated into Belgorod or wherever. For a bit of context, the neolib dickheads currently in charge in Ireland are pushing hard to try to reverse Ireland policy of neutrality and join up to NATO, and are taking legal advice that they can do so without consulting the public despite recent precedents to the contrary. Our much cooler President recently came out hard against this, so now it's poo poo flinging warmongering time
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Jun 20, 2023 07:41
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