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A.o.D. posted:Huh. Well color me pleasantly surprised. I didn't know that they could survive a grad strike. I’m very, very doubtful on the statement just considering the size of a grad projectile combined with how unlucky one has to be to get directly hit. Even then, surviving a 122mm rocket impacting next to you is already impressive.
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Jun 16, 2023 22:34
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Depending on fuzing, I've seen 122mm only plow a foot or so into dirt before detonating outward, rather than downward, which in turn redirects the body of the rocket. I've also seen them dud and plow themselves into the ground pretty darn deep where EOD has to dig them out with machinery to get to the warhead. But if they're fuzed to blow shrapnel outward, they don't penetrated the ground (or one building's reinforced/sand-bagged roof) very much. It could also be that they misidentified the round or the "direct" hit wasn't truly a direct hit.
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Jun 16, 2023 22:47
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I have a doubt that a Bradley survived a direct hit on the body from a Grad, but it could survive one hitting the dirt next to it or perhaps tracking it. I have doubts that an Abrams would survive a Grad hit since it would be coming in from above. The crew would probably survive but the tank would be mission killed.
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Jun 16, 2023 22:50
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EasilyConfused posted:Don't be an rear end in a top hat, that's obviously not what they're saying. I can be an rear end in a top hat all I want, because you don't have to be nice to people with awful views. e: sorry I was mean to the person with the stalin avatar spankmeister fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Jun 16, 2023 |
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Jun 16, 2023 22:51
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i would not be able to resist the temptation to spraypaint the rest of the windows logo on that thing
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Jun 16, 2023 22:51
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orange juche posted:I have a doubt that a Bradley survived a direct hit on the body from a Grad, but it could survive one hitting the dirt next to it or perhaps tracking it. I have doubts that an Abrams would survive a Grad hit since it would be coming in from above. The crew would probably survive but the tank would be mission killed. That's why you glue as much Kontakt to the turret as will fit I think the implication is a knockout but crew survival here
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Jun 16, 2023 22:54
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Chronojam posted:That's why you glue as much Kontakt to the turret as will fit Crew survival AND a recoverable vehicle. Pretty good for a significant emotional event.
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Jun 16, 2023 22:56
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One of the guys who went into a concrete pre-fab bunker that had dirt piled on top had a grad strike his bunker directly. He had a mild TBI, but otherwise, a piece of concrete spalled out and gave him maybe a 1 centimeter cut on his forehead. Meanwhile, the area surrounding his bunker had little metal shrapnel holes in everything.   All those video games that show 122mm volleys being very scary and making everyone hit the dirt are pretty accurate, as is the fact that after the strike is over, most everyone just gets up and keeps on trucking unless they were very unlucky or they stood up or ran (unwise, but people react weird to loud noises) and caught shrapnel. Hitting the dirt is OP.
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Jun 16, 2023 23:01
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spankmeister posted:No it's okay because they order a lot of nazi stuff from a website, so they shouldn't be given arms to defend themselves with. No, but empowering the hardcore nationalists and extreme right-wing of Ukraine, many of whom are literal Nazis (because they have since 2014 been the ones most willing to fight) is going to have consequences down the line. As an example, it was primarily the extreme right-wing turds on Ukraine's side who kept on stirring poo poo in Donetsk after the Minsk treaty. You don't want those guys loving up any future negotiations, ceasefires or fair elections in the future. So I sure hope there is some non terrible planning on how to rebuild Ukraine without those factions loving things up.
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Jun 16, 2023 23:21
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Zudgemud posted:As an example, it was primarily the extreme right-wing turds on Ukraine's side who kept on stirring poo poo in Donetsk after the Minsk treaty. You don't want those guys loving up any future negotiations, ceasefires or fair elections in the future. So I sure hope there is some non terrible planning on how to rebuild Ukraine without those factions loving things up. I feel like implying that anyone on the Ukrainian side was responsible for the Minsk treaty not working out, is one hell of a bold tack. Also like, yeah, Ukraine has nazis. So does Russia. So does the US. So does Denmark. Probably the Moon and Antarctica are the only place you won't find a few of their blighted ilk. This does not mean they are somehow being "empowered" by arming Ukraine except in the sense that they are more likely to survive if Putin's goons don't get to roll in unopposed and genocide everyone, and by all reports whatever limited influence they once had has been on the wane and actively defanged by the Ukrainian central government. Hell, Ukraine has been working on adopting more liberal and progressive legislation, in particular on LGBT subjects, during the war. They're absolutely not moving in a Nazi-adjacent direction by all accounts and indicators.
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Jun 16, 2023 23:25
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Zudgemud posted:No, but empowering the hardcore nationalists and extreme right-wing of Ukraine, many of whom are literal Nazis (because they have since 2014 been the ones most willing to fight) is going to have consequences down the line. As an example, it was primarily the extreme right-wing turds on Ukraine's side who kept on stirring poo poo in Donetsk after the Minsk treaty. You don't want those guys loving up any future negotiations, ceasefires or fair elections in the future. So I sure hope there is some non terrible planning on how to rebuild Ukraine without those factions loving things up. Probably not the best time to discuss hypotheticals like this as Ukraine is currently trying to get literal Nazi right-wing turds known as the Russian Government to stop murdering them and attempting to erase their nationhood. First we deal with the terrorist state bombing hospitals THEN we can talk about their other nazis.
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Jun 16, 2023 23:30
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I hope they survived in a fighting shape too, losing trained crew with combat experience is probably worse for Ukraine than losing the vehicle.
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Jun 16, 2023 23:30
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PurpleXVI posted:I feel like implying that anyone on the Ukrainian side was responsible for the Minsk treaty not working out, is one hell of a bold tack. Ukraine's militias were not be responsible for the Minsk treaty not working out but they were responsible for Ukrainian state being hated by larger parts of the eastern population, which helped Russia in all aspects during the invasion. Their actions were actively counterproductive for successful defense. KakerMix posted:Probably not the best time to discuss hypotheticals like this as Ukraine is currently trying to get literal Nazi right-wing turds known as the Russian Government to stop murdering them and attempting to erase their nationhood. First we deal with the terrorist state bombing hospitals THEN we can talk about their other nazis. States and supranational organization have enormous resources at their disposal, I'm confident they can manage both if they want to.
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Jun 16, 2023 23:46
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Zudgemud posted:Ukraine's militias were not be responsible for the Minsk treaty not working out but they were responsible for Ukrainian state being hated by larger parts of the eastern population, which helped Russia in all aspects during the invasion. Their actions were actively counterproductive for successful defense. And who is to say they aren't?
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Jun 17, 2023 00:45
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Antigravitas posted:
I just did Berlin > Wroclaw > Krakow last week and 4 hours gets you to Wroclaw. Ukraine is a day's drive at least. Berlin to Lviv is almost 1000km.
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Jun 17, 2023 01:11
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Hey guys I totally support Ukrainians defending their right to exist against an imperialist invasion but I'm really really worried about all the exact same issues the imperialist invader is putting out as propaganda to justify their genocidal bullshit. Also I'm very concerned about the similarities between supporting Ukrainians defending their right to exist and supporting the 2003 invasion of Iraq. But didn't you read my post? I said I support Ukrainian, I'm just asking some very important questions.
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Jun 17, 2023 01:14
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armpit_enjoyer posted:Eh, scratch the surface and there's all sorts of problems. There's a housing crisis because of rampant speculation on the market. Private developers are the only people building new housing; it's unaffordable unless your only goal in life is to become a landlord. 42% of the country has no access to any form of commuter rail. Our healthcare system is collapsing, with reproductive healthcare being a hot topic rn as doctors prefer inaction to performing abortions in case of dangerous or inviable pregnancies. Prices of even basic necessities like food keep skyrocketing. Not only do we have no climate change mitigation plan, we literally poisoned the second largest river in the country last year through sheer incompetence and corruption. Also, 58% of the country has commuter rail? My God, what a country!
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Jun 17, 2023 02:05
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i wish 58% of my country had commuter rail
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Jun 17, 2023 02:14
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*Lives in city with 6.8% public transportation usage* “What a hell man”
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Jun 17, 2023 02:15
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I definitely want Western aid to be provided judiciously, with care taken about where it ends up and how effective it is. From what I've seen, that's working pretty drat well so far! If folks are so concerned about the direct provision of arms, well, let's just kick Operation Steppe Shield into gear and wrap this war up in a couple weeks.
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Jun 17, 2023 02:24
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Jarmak posted:Hey guys I totally support Ukrainians defending their right to exist against an imperialist invasion but I'm really really worried about all the exact same issues the imperialist invader is putting out as propaganda to justify their genocidal bullshit. Actually I've been consistent in my posting on SA since before the 2014 invasion that I absolutely support Ukraine's right to territorial integrity and a peaceful existence as a democratic state with the ability to choose its own allies and trade partners. Free from Russian aggression and influence. We knew back then, when we were watching in horror as first Ukrainian state and then Russian agents shot Ukranian protesters on livestreams, that Ukraine had huge problems with corrupt competing oligarchic interests (hence the revolutions), and an ultra-nationalist movement with a fondness for Nazi ideology looking to exploit the situation. Long before the Russian propagandists started spinning their current lies. It's uncomfortable and unfortunate that those problems exist, but they don't in any way illegitimise Ukraine's position as the wronged party, or undermine the moral imperative for us to assist them to retake their territory. And I've never said they do. They do however mean that we need to be aware of them and making drat sure they are fixed before our politicians get bored and move on. For the benefit of everyone. Pretending that anyone with concerns about those issues is a Russian stooge, or that we should ignore them because they're inconvenient right now, runs completely contrary to actually genuinely giving a poo poo about the well-being of Ukraine and its people. Getting back towards the more pertinent purpose of the thread; did we ever get confirmation that Kadyrov's deputy was killed the other day or is it still up in the air?
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Jun 17, 2023 02:36
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i mean there was no proof of life other than russian generals going "that is impossible, I saw him last week!"
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Jun 17, 2023 02:37
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I think some of you aren't actually reading Mr Stalin's post, and are arguing with someone who isn't here, by proxy, on the assumption that he's is making the same point they are. Ukraine should be backed to the maximum extent possible, Russia could end the war any time they choose by loving off, and Ukraine is in an existential fight for their survival. At the same time, it's reasonable to think about what's going to happen next, and reasonable to be concerned about the pockets of no-poo poo actual armed neo Nazis that are fighting for Ukraine (the Russian defector units that carried out those raids https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/belgorod-raid-russian-volunteer-corps-freedom-russia-legion-rcna86168). That doesn't mean to stop sending money and arms and supplies to Ukraine, it means thinking about how to head off these pockets of fuckers becoming a problem later. I've sent a fair amount of money to Ukraine, I will continue to do so, I'm Jewish, I'm concerned about literal neo Nazis using weapons purchased with funds I've sent to the Ukraine central bank, this concern will not stop me from continuing to send funds. I swear if people just read the drat posts and take them at face value this big stupid internet of ours would be much less stupid.
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Jun 17, 2023 03:08
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Cugel the Clever posted:I definitely want Western aid to be provided judiciously, with care taken about where it ends up and how effective it is. From what I've seen, that's working pretty drat well so far! If folks are so concerned about the direct provision of arms, well, let's just kick Operation Steppe Shield into gear and wrap this war up in a couple weeks. Help! I'm stuck in this war of conquest! Steppe Shield-kun, what are you doing back there?
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Jun 17, 2023 03:30
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I read his argument as: I can simultaneously believe we should be shovelling modern weapons systems into Ukraine as fast as they can be built, seeing as how they are in a fight for survival with a nuclear-armed fascist regional power. AND that we should also be worried about the long-term consequences of that choice. Just because it's the best option for the West does not mean it doesn't come with problems. I tend to agree.
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Jun 17, 2023 03:36
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GD_American posted:I read his argument as: I can simultaneously believe we should be shovelling modern weapons systems into Ukraine as fast as they can be built, seeing as how they are in a fight for survival with a nuclear-armed fascist regional power. AND that we should also be worried about the long-term consequences of that choice. Just because it's the best option for the West does not mean it doesn't come with problems. 
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Jun 17, 2023 04:32
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The Minsk Agreement was Germany and France trying to paper over a problem neither of them felt like dealing with so they could get back to concentrating on important tasks like supplying their economies with cheap Russian gas.
psydude fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Jun 17, 2023 |
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Jun 17, 2023 05:31
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psydude posted:The Minsk Agreement was Germany and France trying to paper over a problem neither of them felt like dealing with so they could get back to concentrating on important tasks like supplying their economies with cheap Russian gas. Like EU Peace attempts in the former Yugoslavia? How well did that go, did European nations solve the problem of the Yugoslav wars? Did their peacekeepers protect refugee camps? I think that is a good thing the US is backing Ukraine in this because the EU has a history of saying they'll protect innocents, then stepping aside to let people do a war crime. Edit: Don't forget giving the peacekeepers who just stepped aside to let war crimes happen a medal for being there. Also, I think that we shouldn't just back Ukraine until they retake Crimea- I think we should back Ukraine until we can guarantee that Russia won't just come back for a Round 3, Round 4, and so on. Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Jun 17, 2023 |
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Jun 17, 2023 05:44
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It is impossible to guarantee that Russia will never come back, but I think that their level of military loss is such that it is unlikely they will do it again any time soon. That also said, it would be logical for Putin or his successor to rearm and drill the Russian military to not be a hollowed-out feedstock for luxurious dachas, but this is not an instantaneous process, nor is it a cheap one.
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Jun 17, 2023 06:10
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Going by your reg date maybe you weren't here for SA in 2003. The specific 2003 parallel I was drawing was that many users then, like some users now, were very much caught up in the circus of a war they themselves weren't fighting. Unquestioningly passing on propaganda and regurgitating rhetoric about how anyone who wasn't doing the same was against "us". Finding that sort of behaviour distasteful does not mean thinking that Ukraine should capitulate or be abandoned. It means you find the idea that you should stop thinking about things and fall in behind the fife and drum morally and intellectually hosed. My regdate might not show it but I’ve been lurking since before tribute.avi. You are going to need to show some receipts for 2003 goons filing in lockstep behind GWB. E: WATCH BUSH START A WAR goatsestretchgoals fucked around with this message at 07:26 on Jun 17, 2023 |
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Jun 17, 2023 07:23
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Nessus posted:It is impossible to guarantee that Russia will never come back, but I think that their level of military loss is such that it is unlikely they will do it again any time soon. That also said, it would be logical for Putin or his successor to rearm and drill the Russian military to not be a hollowed-out feedstock for luxurious dachas, but this is not an instantaneous process, nor is it a cheap one. It's especially not a cheap one because they're going to be starting much closer to zero than when they had the choicest picks from the massive stockpiles of late Soviet era armour and weapons still available. The level of corruption that exists and which has allowed the Russian military to tumble into the state it is in is so comprehensive and all-encompassing that it is going to take a very long time for reforms to reverse that to take root. And frankly, if Russia is forced to withdraw from Ukraine, especially if that withdrawal costs it Crimea, I can see this leading to the fragmentation of what is currently Russia and it losing more of the manpower reserves it has relied on to date as well.
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Jun 17, 2023 07:25
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mikerock posted:I just did Berlin > Wroclaw > Krakow last week and 4 hours gets you to Wroclaw. Ukraine is a day's drive at least. Berlin to Lviv is almost 1000km. About 10-12 hours drive, yes. You can barrel down the A4 for most of it. If there's no large traffic jam you can even make a stop around Wroclaw or Krakow and still get below 12h.
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Jun 17, 2023 07:38
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goatsestretchgoals posted:My regdate might not show it but I’ve been lurking since before tribute.avi. You are going to need to show some receipts for 2003 goons filing in lockstep behind GWB.
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Jun 17, 2023 09:41
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Nessus posted:It is impossible to guarantee that Russia will never come back, but I think that their level of military loss is such that it is unlikely they will do it again any time soon. That also said, it would be logical for Putin or his successor to rearm and drill the Russian military to not be a hollowed-out feedstock for luxurious dachas, but this is not an instantaneous process, nor is it a cheap one. Ukraine being a NATO member with tripwire border guards would probably do it.
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Jun 17, 2023 09:52
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Nessus posted:It is impossible to guarantee that Russia will never come back, but I think that their level of military loss is such that it is unlikely they will do it again any time soon. That also said, it would be logical for Putin or his successor to rearm and drill the Russian military to not be a hollowed-out feedstock for luxurious dachas, but this is not an instantaneous process, nor is it a cheap one. While I don't doubt that Putin would love to have a military more capable of putting his boot to other countries' neck, the Russian military leadership not being a maelstrom of incompetence and corruption isn't exactly without danger to his ambitions of remaining a despot either. I doubt it's going to be the first, or even the tenth thing, he tries to change once the war is over.
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Jun 17, 2023 10:29
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Nessus posted:It is impossible to guarantee that Russia will never come back, but I think that their level of military loss is such that it is unlikely they will do it again any time soon. That also said, it would be logical for Putin or his successor to rearm and drill the Russian military to not be a hollowed-out feedstock for luxurious dachas, but this is not an instantaneous process, nor is it a cheap one. This literally can't happen, for several reasons. The first is that most of Russia's current military was built by the USSR, not Russia, and Russia by itself literally no longer has the capacity to rebuild these losses even if there were zero corruption. The second is that Russia's political system isn't going to allow a competent military to exist, not unless the military wing seizes back control of the government from the state police / intelligence services wing that Putin has come from.
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Jun 17, 2023 12:29
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Hyperlynx posted:I swear if people just read the drat posts and take them at face value this big stupid internet of ours would be much less stupid.
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Jun 17, 2023 14:20
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It seems Russia has a much more prescient fascist problem than Ukraine. What with engaging in a war if conquest to recapture an idealised past while funding fascist politicians around the globe. Isn't giving Ukraine weapons to fight Russia the most effective and direct means of countering Russian fascism? Seems like it to me.
Grip it and rip it fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Jun 17, 2023 |
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Jun 17, 2023 14:35
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Grip it and rip it posted:It seems Russia has a much more prescient fascist problem than Ukraine. What with engaging in a war if conquest to recapture an idealised past while funding fascist politicians around the globe. Isn't giving Ukraine weapons to fight Russia the most effective and direct means of countering Russian fascism? Seems like it to me. Nah, giving weapons and support to Russian domestic anti-fascist groups is more direct. Might or might not be more effective. Supporting Ukraine is still pretty good for helping Ukrainians, but the internal Russian fractions that are emboldened by Putin's losses are also sadly mostly fascist currently.
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Jun 17, 2023 14:43
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Throwing money and arms at Ukraine to help them spend lives weakening a major US geopolitical rival is such a dead simple bargain on every level that I'm not surprised millions of American dipshits are against it.
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Jun 17, 2023 15:00
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