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Bernie took every opportunity to make breaking up banks his single issue whenever he got airtime, so the line of attack was fairly obvious to make him seem like a quixotic RENT IS TOO drat HIGH PARTY guy.
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Jun 19, 2023 20:08
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Do you think the African American community of Tulsa owning factories would've prevented what happened to them? Would they be considered a separate community—an African American community—if they held economic (and thus political) power at the same rates as whites did? The question you pose is kind of asking a Bioshock alternate universe kind of question. There’s a lot to unpack there! The entire history of the country would have to be rewritten for that to have been the status quo at the time of the Tulsa pogrom. It wouldn’t even make sense for it to happen if the proposed stipulation (economic, and thus political) parity were true. You don’t pogrom the in-group, which is what economic power and the political self-determination that flows from it is; that’s what is being gatekept.
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Jun 19, 2023 20:08
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Gumball Gumption posted:It was a stump speech arguing that Bernie Sanders only cared about economic issues and was "mistaken" that economic policy has an impact on these other issues. The idea was that Sanders was a single issue candidate and that he was wrong when he argued economic reform was necessary for those other reforms. She's right. Also Bernie's over-focus on economics has always been a valid criticism of him, even if he is definitely more progressive and a better candidate than HRC.
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Jun 19, 2023 20:08
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https://twitter.com/highbrow_nobrow/status/1670857708960874500?s=46&t=CBKJcBX0BD3U5HgUdsqBtw
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Jun 19, 2023 20:08
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:The notion that racism is in any way an invention of capitalism is a bit laughable for a species that has been believing that the people next valley over are stupid, criminal, and butt-ugly for as long as there's been people the next valley over. In any case, capitalism (at least the version in the USA) has been happy to use racism as a tool to keep wages low and prevent the government from moving to socialism (medicare for all).
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Jun 19, 2023 20:12
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selec posted:Would they be considered a separate community—an African American community—if they held economic (and thus political) power at the same rates as whites did? I believe their community was destroyed out of racism. I don't think their having more economic power and controlling the means of production would have changed that. But you're right, it's a counterfactual and we'll never know. selec posted:The question you pose is kind of asking a Bioshock alternate universe kind of question. There’s a lot to unpack there! The entire history of the country would have to be rewritten for that to have been the status quo at the time of the Tulsa pogrom. It wouldn’t even make sense for it to happen if the proposed stipulation (economic, and thus political) parity were true. You don’t pogrom the in-group, which is what economic power and the political self-determination that flows from it is; that’s what is being gatekept. If the racism didn't change, they wouldn't be the in-group. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Jun 19, 2023 |
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Jun 19, 2023 20:13
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Jaxyon posted:She's right. She's right but it's also not the intelligent point she thinks it is. Like duh, breaking up the banks won't solve racism or sexism. Also the current economic system reinforces, supports, and benefits from the racism and sexism as experienced today. Universal healthcare isn't solving racism but neither did the fair housing act while both being policies that expand what is accessible to people currently being exploited and discriminated against.
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Jun 19, 2023 20:14
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Gumball Gumption posted:She's right but it's also not the intelligent point she thinks it is. Like duh, breaking up the banks won't solve racism or sexism. Also the current economic system reinforces, supports, and benefits from the racism and sexism as experienced today. gently caress you for making me have to defend Hillary but no, it's a fine point. Of course breaking up the banks and UHC don't' solve racism. She's saying those need to be addressed as well, along side progressive economic policy. She's essentially making the argument myself and others are making, that "fix class and racism will fix itself" are fundamentally flawed ideas and over focusing on economics will ignore racial inequalities taht won't be fixed purely by fixing the economics. I don't know if she truly believes it but it's not a bad argument.
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Jun 19, 2023 20:16
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Kalli posted:I mean it was a pretty big discussion point in the 2016 primaries. (no video as far as I know, but widely reported and jumped on by the left). tristeham posted:is hillary rodham clinton not mainstream enough for you? She's not saying the reason for breaking up the big banks is that it won't solve racism. She's simply saying that it won't solve racism, which is what I and many others have been pointing out during this discussion. I don't think Hillary Clinton wants to break up any banks and she never would, racism be damned. That does not render her statement untrue. The point is that racial and economic justice is inextricably linked, and your methods of attacking both have to support each other. Economic concessions will only strengthen white supremacy unless racial disparities are addressed with them.
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Jun 19, 2023 20:21
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Colorblind policy simply continues existing racial inequities. This is basic poo poo.
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Jun 19, 2023 20:22
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Jaxyon posted:gently caress you for making me have to defend Hillary but no, it's a fine point. It's not a good argument if it's against a straw man and "fix class and racism will fix itself" is a straw man of Bernie and all the stuff that kicked off this discussion.
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Jun 19, 2023 20:23
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Gumball Gumption posted:It's not a good argument if it's against a straw man and "fix class and racism will fix itself" is a straw man of Bernie and all the stuff that kicked off this discussion. People knowing well enough to not make that explicit argument are still making the implicit argument that economics fixes racism, in this discussion
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Jun 19, 2023 20:24
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:The notion that racism is in any way an invention of capitalism is a bit laughable for a species that has been believing that the people next valley over are stupid, criminal, and butt-ugly for as long as there's been people the next valley over. You need a concept of race in order for racism to exist, and Europeans developed the concept of race as a consequence of their imperial conquests in India and the Americas. If you want to see racism as a mere variation on cultural chauvinism or distrust of outsiders, you’re not going to be able to explain very much about the function of race in American history. It’s a specific, historically contingent category. As for the planter class, it sure seems like the invention of the cotton gin had an effect on their investment in the continuation of chattel slavery. Aristocrats don’t derive their wealth from the sale of commodities, which slave owners definitely did no matter how much they liked to dress up in silly costumes and imagine that they were like kings of their lovely garbage society. Plantations weren’t just big estates: they generated commodities for sale on markets.
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Jun 19, 2023 20:25
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I mean, it’s a dumb point to make because a lot of the day to day material experience of racism is in banks and hospitals. If Wells Fargo being broken up causes the banks that come after to not give shittier mortgages to black people as a matter of policy, did breaking up the bank “solve” racism? No, but it fixed one of the material impacts from it. M4A doesn’t solve the racism that causes such gaps in maternal and infant health care across race in America, but would ameliorate it by making better (or any) health care available to a broad swath of Americans (who you would find to be disproportionately people of color) who currently can’t get it or can’t afford to use what they can get. You don’t break up a bank just because it’s cool to do that, you have specific material outcomes you’re looking to see, and if the bank is in the way of those outcomes, you break it up. So yeah, if you’re approaching it the right way breaking up a bank doesn’t solve racism, but it does fix some of the effects of racism. One of those feels a lot more materially sound and grounded as an approach. How does Hilary propose measuring “less racism” from her policy perspective? Because mine can point to a lot of specific metrics.
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Jun 19, 2023 20:25
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bobjr posted:https://twitter.com/highbrow_nobrow/status/1670857708960874500?s=46&t=CBKJcBX0BD3U5HgUdsqBtw
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Jun 19, 2023 20:26
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Rebel Blob posted:I'm not well-versed in North Carolina politics, but I think this is the same guy who is rumored to be having an affair with Tricia Cotham. She was the NC House member who switched parties to the Republicans a few months ago, giving them the supermajority to override the governor's veto and pass the typical abhorrent Republican legislation.
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Jun 19, 2023 20:26
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selec posted:I mean, it’s a dumb point to make because a lot of the day to day material experience of racism is in banks and hospitals. I think about it this way, My neighborhood is still generally segregated on redlines because it still impacts the local market. But it's also not a hard divide anymore because reforms opened up access to mortgages.
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Jun 19, 2023 20:28
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Name Change posted:Bernie took every opportunity to make breaking up banks his single issue whenever he got airtime, so the line of attack was fairly obvious to make him seem like a quixotic RENT IS TOO drat HIGH PARTY guy. I don't think this is correct; he spent a LOT of time talking about single-payer healthcare & other issues included in his platform. A lot of corporate media, however, did distort & edit his messages so I can understand some people having this take, especially if they never paid attention to his speeches & appearances.
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Jun 19, 2023 20:30
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bobjr posted:https://twitter.com/highbrow_nobrow/status/1670857708960874500?s=46&t=CBKJcBX0BD3U5HgUdsqBtw Lol no wonder they freaked out when Madison Cawthon started talking about orgies.
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Jun 19, 2023 20:30
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But why was Cawthorn upset about not getting invited to that lemon party? The principle of the matter?
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Jun 19, 2023 20:32
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VideoGameVet posted:In any case, capitalism (at least the version in the USA) has been happy to use racism as a tool to keep wages low and prevent the government from moving to socialism (medicare for all). Yes, very much so. People itt have already pointed out how our healthcare system hurts people of color disproportionately, and I've pointed out before how M4A could circumvent state laws against gender-affirming medicare care, and that (traditional) Medicare currently covers such care.
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Jun 19, 2023 20:33
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selec posted:I mean, it’s a dumb point to make because a lot of the day to day material experience of racism is in banks and hospitals. Breaking up the banks won't magically make other competing banks stop being racist and start offering good loans to black people, they will continue to offer loans to the people that are a lower financial risk for them, and there are more black people living in poverty than any other race in the US. Show your work, how is breaking up the banks alone going to fix racism wrt banking and loans? It sounds like you're expecting the invisible hand of the market to take over once Wells Fargo is broken up.
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Jun 19, 2023 20:37
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I AM GRANDO posted:But why was Cawthorn upset about not getting invited to that lemon party? The principle of the matter? Admission criteria is always higher for guys than girls when it comes to orgies.
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Jun 19, 2023 20:38
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selec posted:Would they be considered a separate community—an African American community—if they held economic (and thus political) power at the same rates as whites did? The question you pose is kind of asking a Bioshock alternate universe kind of question. There’s a lot to unpack there! The entire history of the country would have to be rewritten for that to have been the status quo at the time of the Tulsa pogrom. It wouldn’t even make sense for it to happen if the proposed stipulation (economic, and thus political) parity were true. You don’t pogrom the in-group, which is what economic power and the political self-determination that flows from it is; that’s what is being gatekept. Yes, absolutely. In fact, you're showing quite a bit of ignorance here. Tulsa was host to one of the most economically successful African-American communities in the nation, to the point where the black community's commercial district was popularly known as "Black Wall Street"...at least until the entire commercial district was burned to the ground in the Tulsa pogrom! That economic success and prosperity was in fact one of the driving forces behind the Tulsa pogrom, as local white communities didn't believe that their social inferiors should be economically even with them, and were happy to take an opportunity to knock them back down to an economic underclass. It's fairly common for pogroms to target the out-group's businesses and commercial activities, in order to destroy their wealth and force the social underclass back down into the economic underclasses. One particularly world-famous pogrom even got its name from the broken windows of the Jewish businesses vandalized and destroyed in the state-sanctioned pogrom.
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Jun 19, 2023 20:47
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Professor Beetus posted:Breaking up the banks won't magically make other competing banks stop being racist and start offering good loans to black people, they will continue to offer loans to the people that are a lower financial risk for them, and there are more black people living in poverty than any other race in the US. Show your work, how is breaking up the banks alone going to fix racism wrt banking and loans? It sounds like you're expecting the invisible hand of the market to take over once Wells Fargo is broken up. Why would that be the only thing you’d do? You’d break up banks, and also ideally the entire idea of housing as an investment rather than a human right. I mean I’m a communist man, in my ideal process the banks go under along with a lot of other things about how we run society. But if it’s bank reform, well, break up those banks too. Any bank that ever accepted a restrictive covenant much less demanded one on a mortgage, and put all those assets into a Postal Bank, with a plan and ultimate goal of ending commercial banking entirely on a consumer level.
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Jun 19, 2023 22:10
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It's strange to see a Fox toadie say to Trump's face "You lost the 2020 election." https://twitter.com/elivalley/status/1670926642368114689?s=20
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Jun 19, 2023 23:55
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Velocity Raptor posted:Remember those "few bad apples" in the Minneapolis Police Department who murdered George Floyd 3 years ago? Shortly after that incident, the Justice Department began investigating the department regarding their policing practices. I work in a poker room and there's an old guy that comes in a lot who used to be LAPD. I know this because he mentions it repeatedly every single loving time he comes in. He's openly racist, tells the same jokes every time he plays and today regaled me with how much he loved Chris Rock's Bring the Pain special for the exact reason you think. Try and imagine what his favorite bit was. He (and a few other players and one dealer) openly mocked the "holiday" today, which I admit I don't know much about but "ending slavery" seems like as good an idea for a holiday as anything I can think of. Not for these people and certainly not for LAPD guy who comes off like he's sad he missed beating the poo poo out of Rodney King. He's also sad that his grandson likes Snoop Dog too. E Sorry, not really "news" I guess so consider me reporting from the ground. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Jun 20, 2023 |
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Jun 20, 2023 00:00
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Professor Beetus posted:Economic justice is literally impossible without racial justice, because if you lift everyone up, guess who's still going to have the upper hand. The phrasing of this brings my mind to Reparations, which would be a form of economic justice that would lift black people up more so than anyone else (I'm pro-reparations)
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Jun 20, 2023 00:03
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Digamma-F-Wau posted:The phrasing of this brings my mind to Reparations, which would be a form of economic justice that would lift black people up more so than anyone else (I'm pro-reparations) I think it’s a twofer :-)
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Jun 20, 2023 00:32
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I legit think last year or the year before was the first time I had ever even heard of Juneteenth. It was never mentioned ever in my public schooling at all. I don't think it was "a thing" at my large state university either, but that probably more has to do with timing with June being summer break and all. It really did feel like a year or two ago it just popped out of no where and then was suddenly everywhere, but I did some reading into it and I am fully behind it.
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Jun 20, 2023 00:46
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Of all the reasons to have a US civic holiday , one commerating the end of chattel slavery in the US is a good one.
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Jun 20, 2023 01:18
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Boris Galerkin posted:I legit think last year or the year before was the first time I had ever even heard of Juneteenth. It was never mentioned ever in my public schooling at all. I don't think it was "a thing" at my large state university either, but that probably more has to do with timing with June being summer break and all. It really did feel like a year or two ago it just popped out of no where and then was suddenly everywhere, but I did some reading into it and I am fully behind it. It was only made a federal holiday in 2021, and that thrust it into the spotlight since that meant it was automatically added to a lot of lists of holidays and time-off schedules that affect almost everyone
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Jun 20, 2023 01:22
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Boris Galerkin posted:I legit think last year or the year before was the first time I had ever even heard of Juneteenth. It was never mentioned ever in my public schooling at all. I don't think it was "a thing" at my large state university either, but that probably more has to do with timing with June being summer break and all. It really did feel like a year or two ago it just popped out of no where and then was suddenly everywhere, but I did some reading into it and I am fully behind it. My high school focused on our own state's emancipation day and not Texas'.
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Jun 20, 2023 01:22
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Tiny Timbs posted:My high school focused on our own state's emancipation day and not Texas'. Yeah, I’d heard of it, but in the context of “this is a Texas thing and it was different everywhere “
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Jun 20, 2023 01:53
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Tiny Timbs posted:My high school focused on our own state's emancipation day and not Texas'. My understanding is that the news of emancipation took time to filter to down to the actual people concerned. The last Confederate Army, the Army Of The Trans-Mississippi, formally surrendered June 2nd, so the Union switched to both curtailing insurgency, banditry, and guerrillas that sprouted from the formerly Confederate army as well accomplish the late Lincoln's goal of freeing the South's slaves, since he'd been dead a good two months prior. June 19th is the official recorded date of emancipation in Galveston, TX, the furthest reach of the United States at that point, but it most likely was continuing for some time after given that rural isolation of the plantations.
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Jun 20, 2023 03:23
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Digamma-F-Wau posted:The phrasing of this brings my mind to Reparations, which would be a form of economic justice that would lift black people up more so than anyone else (I'm pro-reparations) Yeah, exactly. It would be extremely hard to thread the needle because the poor white grievances would be deafening, but economic reforms/reparations would be my go to. selec posted:Why would that be the only thing you’d do? You’d break up banks, and also ideally the entire idea of housing as an investment rather than a human right. I mean I’m a communist man, in my ideal process the banks go under along with a lot of other things about how we run society. I mean if I'm supposed to see you post something that says "x" and you react to me as though I was supposed to assume y and z, then I would expect the same in return. Of course I would love to do all the things you talk about, I'm a communist too! But in order to achieve actual racist justice, you have to specifically address racial disparities where they occur. Willa Rogers posted:Yes, very much so. Which leads me to this. M4A would absolutely be an amazing accomplishment and I am 100% for it. But M4A won't solve the fact that even when discussing high earning or even famous black people, who have access to the best healthcare money can buy, there are still worse outcomes for them because there are racist practices in medicine that are completely divorced from economics or access to health care.
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Jun 20, 2023 03:45
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Young Freud posted:My understanding is that the news of emancipation took time to filter to down to the actual people concerned. The last Confederate Army, the Army Of The Trans-Mississippi, formally surrendered June 2nd, so the Union switched to both curtailing insurgency, banditry, and guerrillas that sprouted from the formerly Confederate army as well accomplish the late Lincoln's goal of freeing the South's slaves, since he'd been dead a good two months prior. June 19th is the official recorded date of emancipation in Galveston, TX, the furthest reach of the United States at that point, but it most likely was continuing for some time after given that rural isolation of the plantations. Oh, for sure. Emancipation was the end of one nightmare and start of another. Many former slaves were just murdered instead of being allowed to go free, or immediately arrested for some trumped up charge. And lest we forget the emancipation proclamation didn’t apply to slaves in Union states. Those weren’t freed until months later when the 13th amendment passed.
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Jun 20, 2023 03:50
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With regards to economics having an effect on social issues (such as racism), it is important to remember that the narrative that these things are separate is a core tenant of clinton-era centrist thought. It is necessary for economics to not matter nearly as much as social issues, so that democrats can continue justifying being economically conservative.
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Jun 20, 2023 05:06
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Freakazoid_ posted:With regards to economics having an effect on social issues (such as racism), it is important to remember that the narrative that these things are separate is a core tenant of clinton-era centrist thought. It is necessary for economics to not matter nearly as much as social issues, so that democrats can continue justifying being economically conservative. And there may not be a starker example of this than the president & vice president giving lip service to pride & juneteenth in short public speeches while holding a series of private fundraisers across the country for donors to cough up to $100,000 each (or buy a table for a cool $1 million) toward the Biden-Harris Victory Fund for a series of meet-and-greets.
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Jun 20, 2023 14:22
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Hunter Biden pleading guilty to a few lesser federal charges. I'm sure this will make the Trump indictment go a lot easier. https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/20/politics/hunter-biden/index.html quote:Hunter Biden, the son of President Joe Biden, will plead guilty to three federal charges, the Justice Department said Tuesday in a court filing.
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Jun 20, 2023 14:41
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