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Framboise posted:It's a Devoted Druid/graveyard recursion deck that can also win with Chain of Smog/Witherbloom Apprentice or Squirrelcraft. Apparently it's pretty consistent. I know what it is. I'm just saying that there's not a clear "this thing is doing the busted thing and needs the axe" piece. There's no easy-to-spot problem like Dockside/Thoracle/Breach. If anything, you could start admitting that price is a real barrier and that cards were historically banned for it (Library of Alexandria is a strong rear end card, but I don't think there's merit to the argument that it is more degenerate than some of the other things happening currently). If you do, you'd immediately ban Cradle and Twister, and Tayam wouldn't get killed by pulling Cradle, but it would sting a bit.
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Jun 23, 2023 20:06
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Framboise posted:Krark'd be still a fine deck if you took Dockside and Breach out tbh. A lot of the wins come from making a ton of clones and winning because your chances of fizzling become exponentially smaller with each clone. Breach is just a backup plan. I don't think it's even in Ken's primer right now. A lot of these decks wouldn't necessarily get killed by pulling Dockside/Thoracle/Breach (but some would). It's the fact that if they didn't get small-package alt-wincons (for Thoracle, a lot of decks are just chamming Consult/Pact/Oracle into an otherwise complete 96-card deck). So, if you shave some percentage points off, you get at least a slightly more open metagame. And, these decks were all pulled from actual results, so primers can say a lot, but the stuff finishing well in reported events really is the best we have to go on.
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Jun 23, 2023 20:09
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Toshimo posted:As a more complete analysis, I pulled up the lists for the top 20 decks on edhtop16 (although the winrate starts to fall off badly after the top 12 or so): UR Malcolm just wins with Glint-Horn, right? Losing Dockside doesn't hurt it terribly.
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Jun 23, 2023 20:10
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Batterypowered7 posted:UR Malcolm just wins with Glint-Horn, right? Losing Dockside doesn't hurt it terribly. Malcolm/Tana is a Pod deck with Kiki/Monitor as well as Glint-Horn. Bring able to pod/neoform/eldritch into a big dockside and then back out, especially when the treasures can fuel the Converge on a Bring to Light does matter. Top decks aren't simple anymore: they are running multiple complex lines for redundancy and to be able to play out against various counter-strategies.
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Jun 23, 2023 20:14
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Toshimo posted:I know what it is. I'm just saying that there's not a clear "this thing is doing the busted thing and needs the axe" piece. There's no easy-to-spot problem like Dockside/Thoracle/Breach. If anything, you could start admitting that price is a real barrier and that cards were historically banned for it (Library of Alexandria is a strong rear end card, but I don't think there's merit to the argument that it is more degenerate than some of the other things happening currently). If you do, you'd immediately ban Cradle and Twister, and Tayam wouldn't get killed by pulling Cradle, but it would sting a bit. I feel like Cradle being out would make a lot of other green decks a lot worse though. I'd be bummed to see it go. As far as price goes, it's a real problem when it comes to sanctioned tournaments, and from what I've heard SCG held/will hold a sanctioned cEDH tournament which means proxies wouldn't be allowed, which is catastrophically stupid. Part of the appeal of cEDH is that you have a place to play the super busted stuff without needing to own them! It should always be a proxy-friendly format, and I'll be extremely disappointed if it ever shifts entirely away from that, even if I don't use proxies myself. (I would if I was entering into a tournament, but for throwing down at LGS cEDH tables, I like using what I have.) Toshimo posted:A lot of these decks wouldn't necessarily get killed by pulling Dockside/Thoracle/Breach (but some would). It's the fact that if they didn't get small-package alt-wincons (for Thoracle, a lot of decks are just chamming Consult/Pact/Oracle into an otherwise complete 96-card deck). So, if you shave some percentage points off, you get at least a slightly more open metagame. And, these decks were all pulled from actual results, so primers can say a lot, but the stuff finishing well in reported events really is the best we have to go on. True. I do kinda wonder where the meta would shift if Thoracle/Breach/Dockside got the boot.
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Jun 23, 2023 20:16
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Framboise posted:I feel like Cradle being out would make a lot of other green decks a lot worse though. I'd be bummed to see it go. TBF, I don't know that Cradle needs to go, I was just throwing out an example. It's p funny though, because I'm almost convinced Green is currently the worst color.
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Jun 23, 2023 20:20
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Toshimo posted:TBF, I don't know that Cradle needs to go, I was just throwing out an example. It's p funny though, because I'm almost convinced Green is currently the worst color. I think that's pretty popularly agreed on.
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Jun 23, 2023 20:23
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As a Najeela player, I would love to see those three banned because we could just go back to Jace, losing practically nothing except a few finicky Neoform a dork into Thoracle lines, and half the decks that trounce us would lose half their consistency without Dockside.
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Jun 23, 2023 20:59
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Toshimo posted:but ffs why wouldn't you deal with the 3 major elephants in the room, right now, or better yet, a year ago when this was all extremely obvious? 100% agree, but... quote:Speaking of exceptional decisions, we are banning Flash (the card, not the mechanic). Enough cEDH players who we trust have convinced us that it is the only change they need for the environment they seek to cultivate. Though they represent a small fraction of the Commander playerbase, we are willing to make this effort for them. It should not be taken as a signal that we are considering any kind of change in how we intend to manage the format; this is an extraordinary step, and one we are unlikely to repeat. https://twitter.com/SheldonMenery/status/1605995609361567745 https://twitter.com/SheldonMenery/status/1670813846464765952 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7cNXlIvUlg
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Jun 23, 2023 20:59
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Toshimo posted:TBF, I don't know that Cradle needs to go, I was just throwing out an example. It's p funny though, because I'm almost convinced Green is currently the worst color. It is-- it hasn't had the same boost that White and Red have been getting over the past few years. Losing Cradle would be losing one of the biggest reasons to play Green to begin with.
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Jun 23, 2023 21:11
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I know i think its good to turn your creatures sideways. If i can get in for damage i'll get in for damage
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Jun 23, 2023 22:35
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Framboise posted:It is-- it hasn't had the same boost that White and Red have been getting over the past few years. Losing Cradle would be losing one of the biggest reasons to play Green to begin with. What cards of note has Green gotten in recent memory that see play in cEDH? Allosaurus Shepherd and Heron Blade Elite (I saw this played as a way to go off with Umbral Mantle in exactly one match)?
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Jun 23, 2023 22:48
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Veil of Summer is the most recent green card I can think of that has been broadly good in cedh. And that was what, 4 years ago now?
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Jun 23, 2023 22:51
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Batterypowered7 posted:What cards of note has Green gotten in recent memory that see play in cEDH? Allosaurus Shepherd and Heron Blade Elite (I saw this played as a way to go off with Umbral Mantle in exactly one match)? Boseiju, Toski, Tamiyo's Safekeeping, Endurance, Haywire Mite, Tyvar's Stand, Invasion of Ikoria, Yavimaya
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Jun 23, 2023 23:28
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I'm extremely dumb for forgetting about Boseiju
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Jun 23, 2023 23:35
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Toshimo posted:Boseiju, Toski, Tamiyo's Safekeeping, Endurance, Haywire Mite, Tyvar's Stand, Invasion of Ikoria, Yavimaya The single {G} protection spells see play? I don't know why, but I'm a little surprised.
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Jun 23, 2023 23:42
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Batterypowered7 posted:The single {G} protection spells see play? I don't know why, but I'm a little surprised. I'm how prevalent but I've seen them a couple times. Only the hexproof+indestructible ones, because they are flexible, though.
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Jun 23, 2023 23:55
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Toph Bei Fong posted:100% agree, but... CEDH probably deserves better than a group that outright refuses to consider them in general. Don't know what would be so radical about making some separate bans that only apply to CEDH, most people are still going to play casually which ironically means basically ignoring the rules committee anyway. The one group that actually wants and needs and would heed the RC are the ones they ignore lol.
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Jun 24, 2023 00:39
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I would be a little sad if thoracle got hit because I'm slowly working on a semi-budget (read: no LED) Oskar deck to have as my other somewhat competitive deck besides Nashi and thoracle is one of its primary wincons (and also I just got s foil of the secret lair one  )
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Jun 24, 2023 01:58
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Fajita Queen posted:I'm extremely dumb for forgetting about Boseiju It only had the spotlight before Capenna crapped all over NEO. I don't blame you.
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Jun 24, 2023 07:48
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Khanstant posted:CEDH probably deserves better than a group that outright refuses to consider them in general. Don't know what would be so radical about making some separate bans that only apply to CEDH, most people are still going to play casually which ironically means basically ignoring the rules committee anyway. This is just the EDH Antipope point all over again. EDH works not because of the specific choices or people, but because the centralization allowed it to spread as a casual format. (Also, the casualness on offer is different to any other 'organized' format which is very important but less relevant to this point). This means anyone could have been 'the authority' on this format. If you want cEDH to get the love you claim it deserves, be the change you want to see in the world and become the 'real' format arbiters. What gives you the right? Nothing, but nothing gave the current RC the right except initiative and inertia. It'll be a lot harder now than it would have been in 2020 for two reasons: 1: Mitch the traitor king accidentally poisoned the well for successor formats and 2: The RC (not merely the CAG) now contains Jim from The Spike Feeders which could placate some. Still, there is nothing stopping you or anyone from taking that step.
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Jun 24, 2023 10:50
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man.... people's threat assessment is just completely shot sometimes, huh scenario: you are playing an edh game and you have a bounce effect on the stack and are trying to figure out what on my board to use it on. do you pick: A) my commander, Elenda, who is already sitting as a 20/20 from another player's toxic deluge that they for some reason didn't want to put enough life into to kill her too (  )B) my sac outlet, which would leave me with a big elenda but no way to cash her in and with no on-board evasion at the moment, giving the table another turn or two to deal with her before it's my turn again C) dictate of erebos, which i have been using to keep the two token decks at something resembling parity answer: D), my cruel celebrant which 'has been doing so much work and its scary  'literally all of us, myself included, were like ' are you SURE thats what you want to bounce' and the guy kept insisting
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Jun 24, 2023 14:24
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Mix. posted:man.... people's threat assessment is just completely shot sometimes, huh In my experience, this isn't a "sometimes" thing. Granted, I haven't played much in the last six months or so, but I can't remember a casual game in at least a year that didn't have someone make a tremendously obvious bad decision. Particularly in casual games where boardstates can get wildly out of control, knowing what to interact with eventually becomes an impossible task for most people.
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Jun 24, 2023 14:34
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Mix. posted:man.... people's threat assessment is just completely shot sometimes, huh I was playing on xmage and there was a dude just going off with Cabal Coffers/Urborg. I had played Cyclonic Rift twice at this point, was down to one or two cards in hand, and had a Rhystic Study in play. Everyone had plenty of mana to pay for the Rhystic Study at this point. The dude before me in turn order decided to Boseiju my Study instead of either of the two lands allowing the other dude to make tons of mana.
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Jun 24, 2023 14:37
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AlternateNu posted:In my experience, this isn't a "sometimes" thing. Granted, I haven't played much in the last six months or so, but I can't remember a casual game in at least a year that didn't have someone make a tremendously obvious bad decision. Particularly in casual games where boardstates can get wildly out of control, knowing what to interact with eventually becomes an impossible task for most people. Also, and I don't mean this in a condescending way, a lot (a lot) of casual EDH players are out to play their decks way more than they're interested in playing against someone else's. They're bad at threat assessment because they don't see that you're 90% of the way to winning, they see that this other thing is causing friction for them a much smaller fraction of the time.
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Jun 24, 2023 14:42
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Magnetic North posted:This is just the EDH Antipope point all over again. EDH works not because of the specific choices or people, but because the centralization allowed it to spread as a casual format. (Also, the casualness on offer is different to any other 'organized' format which is very important but less relevant to this point). This means anyone could have been 'the authority' on this format. If you want cEDH to get the love you claim it deserves, be the change you want to see in the world and become the 'real' format arbiters. What gives you the right? Nothing, but nothing gave the current RC the right except initiative and inertia. The general consensus from within the cEDH community is that we don't WANT to be a separate format with different rules. cEDH is still EDH, and will follow the rules of the format to its fullest potential. If someone goes to "be the change", not many will follow.
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Jun 24, 2023 16:04
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Magnetic North posted:This is just the EDH Antipope point all over again. EDH works not because of the specific choices or people, but because the centralization allowed it to spread as a casual format. (Also, the casualness on offer is different to any other 'organized' format which is very important but less relevant to this point). This means anyone could have been 'the authority' on this format. If you want cEDH to get the love you claim it deserves, be the change you want to see in the world and become the 'real' format arbiters. What gives you the right? Nothing, but nothing gave the current RC the right except initiative and inertia. I was just speaking from the sidelines, seems like they are underserved is all. I don't understand the last two points though
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Jun 24, 2023 16:24
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Framboise posted:The general consensus from within the cEDH community is that we don't WANT to be a separate format with different rules. cEDH is still EDH, and will follow the rules of the format to its fullest potential. Yeah, I don't see nearly as much "we want cEDH to be run separately" as I do "we want EDH as a whole to be run much better."
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Jun 24, 2023 16:42
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Jim Lapage is a big name in the cedh community and is part of the EDH Rules Committee as of last year (the highest level of commander governance). The Commander Advisory Group is a group made up of MTG writers and content creators who report to the RC about the state of the game.
MrL_JaKiri fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Jun 24, 2023 |
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Jun 24, 2023 16:49
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disaster pastor posted:Yeah, I don't see nearly as much "we want cEDH to be run separately" as I do "we want EDH as a whole to be run much better." Pretty much this. If we all wanted our own format, we'd have jumped ship to Conquest* a long time ago. *I actually would be into Conquest if people actually played it. No one does, locally.
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Jun 24, 2023 16:51
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Toyed with Frodo in Arena Historic Brawl today a bit and am enjoying it. I figure in regular commander it will automatically be at least 1/3 as good between diluting ring tempting frequency and needing to do the party trick 3 times. But since it has some other avenues to win, can't help but wonder if it would be fun on paper too. Plus maybe Helm of the Host to help speed up a win, surely other tricks around. Oh looks like Ratadrabik and Sam with a sac outlet can do some infinite sam's. Also an Approach From the Second Sun and Reprieve combo haha. Khanstant fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Jun 24, 2023 |
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Jun 24, 2023 22:03
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Framboise posted:The general consensus from within the cEDH community is that we don't WANT to be a separate format with different rules. cEDH is still EDH, and will follow the rules of the format to its fullest potential. Well, quite sincerely, the first step in getting there would be fomenting disapproval of the RC.
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Jun 25, 2023 00:07
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It's worth noting that personally, I don't really have any major qualms with the status of the cEDH meta right now. I think Dockside and Thoracle are boring but that's about it. I don't personally think banning them will change much in the grand scheme of things, it's always going to skew toward the next best thing.
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Jun 25, 2023 01:35
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Framboise posted:It's worth noting that personally, I don't really have any major qualms with the status of the cEDH meta right now. I think Dockside and Thoracle are boring but that's about it. I don't personally think banning them will change much in the grand scheme of things, it's always going to skew toward the next best thing. Obviously it would be Shalai and Hallar as far as the eye can see!
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Jun 25, 2023 01:38
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Framboise posted:It's worth noting that personally, I don't really have any major qualms with the status of the cEDH meta right now. I think Dockside and Thoracle are boring but that's about it. I don't personally think banning them will change much in the grand scheme of things, it's always going to skew toward the next best thing. It will, but flattening the curve means that instead of like 3 or 4 best things (and 80% of the field being the best 2 of them), that we might get 6 or 7 best things and a more diverse field. Let perfect not be the enemy of good.
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Jun 25, 2023 01:38
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 Excellent deck name.
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Jun 25, 2023 16:46
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Threw together a budget Shagrat as he was one of the legendaries that actually piqued my interest and i got him in my prerelease kit; its meant to mostly be budget as far as equipment goes because a lot of the pricier equips i have like swords are in my other equipment matters deck but is there anything that stands out as missing or isn't as good as it seems?
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Jun 25, 2023 19:23
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Hey folks, I just released my precon upgrade guide for LOTR - all 4 precons, one 10-minute video. Let me know what you think of this condensed format: https://youtu.be/1yN9YQyIh-I
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Jun 25, 2023 20:15
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Balon posted:Hey folks, I just released my precon upgrade guide for LOTR - all 4 precons, one 10-minute video. Growing more handsome at 4x the rate.
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Jun 25, 2023 20:29
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Mix. posted:Threw together a budget Shagrat as he was one of the legendaries that actually piqued my interest and i got him in my prerelease kit; its meant to mostly be budget as far as equipment goes because a lot of the pricier equips i have like swords are in my other equipment matters deck but is there anything that stands out as missing or isn't as good as it seems? Bludgeon Brawl feels like a fun add for Shagrat, because it lets you get extra value out of your mana rocks/artifact lands by turning them into extra power and/or Amass value for your commander. And also allows you to steal your opponents' annoying value artifacts and beat them to death with them. Vulshok Battlemaster can serve as a surprise "kills you out of nowhere" creature if Shagrat gets taken out and everyone thinks they're safe because you'll need time get him back out and loaded back up with equipment again.
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Jun 25, 2023 22:53
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