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Aphrodite posted:I'm not clicking the spoiler tag in HD DAD's post because I don't know what it is, so instead I'm pretending it says Torgal and agreeing. I mean, that also completely works.
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Jun 26, 2023 19:07
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If the game is so sexist against women then why are there no fathercrystals
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Jun 26, 2023 19:08
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ImpAtom posted:Jill's sidequest later where you basically just follow them on a date. I mean the entire premise of that sidequest is straight up "Jill's depressed because she no longer has any agency or particular relevance to the action." You can argue whether the quest mitigates that successfully, but it's telling even the game itself acknowledges it's an issue
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Jun 26, 2023 19:13
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Jetrauben posted:FFXIV has a lot of solid female characters with compelling characteristics and personalities, they just don't - because it isn't a game with a party, so it's Clive's show most of all - get to do that much onscreen. Which is genuinely unfortunate, and I think is a fair thing to go "really, Square?" at - but FFXVI is still a good game, it's just a game which reinforces an unfortunate pattern. To be honest I feel like FFXVI is getting a lot of criticism people didn't want to level at FFXV for some reason to the point where half the game's arguments make a lot more sense to me if you're discussing FFXV. XVI isn't blameless but the sheer absence of comparison to FFXV is bewildering to me because like XVI isn't perfect but it is so much better than the last game in almost every regards but it's being treated as an aberration instead of an improvement over the last game even if it could still be better.
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Jun 26, 2023 19:14
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ImpAtom posted:See, I would agree if you didn't put Jote on the list , but she really does not take center stage in any meaningful way and isn't a relevant presence until the second half. Including her but not Mid feels like you're stretching. I dunno I just don’t really agree. Jote features in a lot of scenes and is In proximity to someone who knows way more than everyone else as to what the hell is going on. She just happens to be doing it by being slavishly devoted to the man in her duo and has no real motives of her own. Mid I admit I don’t have the full picture on yet but right now she doesn’t necessarily read as BETTER to me. She reads as a manic pixie science girl who exists to titillate nerds and move the plot along by producing a timely macguffin, less so a real person
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Jun 26, 2023 19:14
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Mordiceius posted:I don't autodog and he chews through enemies. I believe you just don't get the other benefits of dog (such as the healing). Nah he'll still throw a heal from time to time (it's just super weak and easy to miss)
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Jun 26, 2023 19:14
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ImpAtom posted:To be honest I feel like FFXVI is getting a lot of criticism people didn't want to level at FFXV for some reason to the point where half the game's arguments make a lot more sense to me if you're discussing FFXV. XVI isn't blameless but the sheer absence of comparison to FFXV is bewildering to me because like XVI isn't perfect but it is so much better than the last game in almost every regards but it's being treated as an aberration instead of an improvement over the last game even if it could still be better. For me at least, and I don’t think I’m necessarily a representative sample but it may be why some people don’t bother to compare to FFXV: It’s because I don’t care about FFXV or really any Final Fantasy that wasn’t 14 in recent memory. FFXV looked like a train wreck leading up to release and was precisely that. Being better than it is nice but isn’t really worth any points. That’s the bare minimum.
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Jun 26, 2023 19:17
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No Mods No Masters posted:I mean the entire premise of that sidequest is straight up "Jill's depressed because she no longer has any agency or particular relevance to the action." You can argue whether the quest mitigates that successfully, but it's telling even the game itself acknowledges it's an issue Yeah but it ends with her rejoining the party and continuing to fight alongside you. It isn't like she goes home to knit. Like I said I'd rather Shiva have gotten more play and Jill not been sidelined but they specifically bring her back into your party and show she's as capable as ever. Captain Oblivious posted:I dunno I just don’t really agree. Jote features in a lot of scenes and is In proximity to someone who knows way more than everyone else as to what the hell is going on. She just happens to be doing it by being slavishly devoted to the man in her duo and has no real motives of her own. I genuinely don't know how to respond to that claim except it's super weird and dismissive. There is literally nothing designs to 'titillate nerds' about the character except that she is energetic and the idea that a smart woman can only exist to pander to the sexual desires of nerds loving sucks.
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Jun 26, 2023 19:18
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the same discourse whirled around FFXV as well. this checklist approach to “representation” is always completely vacuous and it’s the only thing most people have instead of actual media literacy
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Jun 26, 2023 19:20
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ImpAtom posted:To be honest I feel like FFXVI is getting a lot of criticism people didn't want to level at FFXV for some reason to the point where half the game's arguments make a lot more sense to me if you're discussing FFXV. XVI isn't blameless but the sheer absence of comparison to FFXV is bewildering to me because like XVI isn't perfect but it is so much better than the last game in almost every regards but it's being treated as an aberration instead of an improvement over the last game even if it could still be better. I think you're probably not wrong. There's a lot of irritation to this day about FFXV's choice to have an all-boys party as well as a lot of its narrative flaws, and it's been festering for the better part of a decade - and for some reason people don't register 7R as a "real" mainline Final Fantasy, so it doesn't "count." I know at least one of my friends who aggressively dislikes playing male leads ended up feeling like XV represented Square deciding that female audiences didn't matter. But there's also the fact that the critical environment has changed significantly in that time period. Representation is a far greater concern in the mainstream of games journalism than it was when XV came out, and a lot of topics have been far more extensively politicized about race and gender in games (see people accusing various games of "going woke" just for...having playable women do a drat thing.) Personally, I'm just a bit disappointed. XVI is still a good game! I love Clive's general depiction! I just end up looking at it and going "Well, this sure is HeavenswardIvalice, for good and ill."
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Jun 26, 2023 19:20
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I'd say FF15's story is basically broken to the extent it doesn't even really rise to the level of being worth criticizing. Lots of criticisms you could level at it are fair but you're kind of criticizing a dumpster fire. FF16's story has lotsa problems but people at least find it worth engaging with on that level
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Jun 26, 2023 19:22
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I'm usually the last person to go off on one about representation because frankly it's not particularly my lane, but Jill is just a weak character in general even before dealing with the fact that she's supposed to be the female lead. Despite being the "party member" you spend by far the most time with, she rarely actually adds anything to scenes where she's present, and often the game seems to entirely forget she's even present at all.
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Jun 26, 2023 19:22
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Jetrauben posted:I know at least one of my friends who aggressively dislikes playing male leads ended up feeling like XV represented Square deciding that female audiences didn't matter. Not to rag on your friend, but this is still an extremely silly attitude that makes no sense if you consider it for even a moment
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Jun 26, 2023 19:23
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Captain Oblivious posted:Mid I admit I don’t have the full picture on yet but right now she doesn’t necessarily read as BETTER to me. She reads as a manic pixie science girl who exists to titillate nerds and move the plot along by producing a timely macguffin, less so a real person This is an extremely gross take. How does she exist to titillate nerds? Female?
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Jun 26, 2023 19:26
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Jetrauben posted:I think you're probably not wrong. There's a lot of irritation to this day about FFXV's choice to have an all-boys party as well as a lot of its narrative flaws, and it's been festering for the better part of a decade - and for some reason people don't register 7R as a "real" mainline Final Fantasy, so it doesn't "count." I know at least one of my friends who aggressively dislikes playing male leads ended up feeling like XV represented Square deciding that female audiences didn't matter. The issue there is that like... who do you think is going to be the traditional market for a group of incredibly beautiful close male friends wearing stylish clothing on an adventure together? Not having a female playable character doesn't mean you're not still targeting female audiences, any more than having a female lead character doesn't mean you're not targeting male audiences. It turns out that 'extremely hot' isn't something that appeals exclusively to men.
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Jun 26, 2023 19:27
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Arist posted:Not to rag on your friend, but this is still an extremely silly attitude that makes no sense if you consider it for even a moment I mean I don't agree with it, I just felt it was worth mentioning. If anything I think 13 got intensely shilled, even though I also think 13 is kind of a monument to bad RPG design. Bland posted:I'm usually the last person to go off on one about representation because frankly it's not particularly my lane, but Jill is just a weak character in general even before dealing with the fact that she's supposed to be the female lead. Despite being the "party member" you spend by far the most time with, she rarely actually adds anything to scenes where she's present, and often the game seems to entirely forget she's even present at all. Honestly this is why I was a bit disappointed that Clive gets rid of his brand a little over a third into the game. The dynamics of being publicly visible as Branded and having to either find a citizen patron's mark so you could speak with their authority, or to have Jill do the talking for you, were interesting and also really helped reinforce that you were not a free citizen. It's one reason I found the claim in some articles that Bearers are passive and token annoying. They aren't! Clive is functionally a Bearer in every way that matters even if his magic originally came from a boon, as far as society is concerned.
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Jun 26, 2023 19:28
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Jetrauben posted:I think you're probably not wrong. There's a lot of irritation to this day about FFXV's choice to have an all-boys party as well as a lot of its narrative flaws, and it's been festering for the better part of a decade - and for some reason people don't register 7R as a "real" mainline Final Fantasy, so it doesn't "count." I know at least one of my friends who aggressively dislikes playing male leads ended up feeling like XV represented Square deciding that female audiences didn't matter. Honestly, I think if XV had been an entirely different game with a more “traditional” cast, this pivot in XVI would have probably been given a bit more leeway. Like you, I have friends who took XV as SE’s definitive statement that women don’t matter. Which…wasn’t what happened, and is in itself a very dumb read, but I can at least understand it. Basically, I think a segment needed XVI to be an apology for XV, and when it didn’t arrive on its knees begging for forgiveness, you get a lot of snide responses.
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Jun 26, 2023 19:30
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Jetrauben posted:It's one reason I found the claim in some articles that Bearers are passive and token annoying. They aren't! Clive is functionally a Bearer in every way that matters even if his magic originally came from a boon, as far as society is concerned. Wow, the group of dehumanized and enslaved people who can and will be killed for any reason up to and including 'it's really funny' tend to be passive and unlikely to speak out. Who would have fuckin' guessed?
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Jun 26, 2023 19:30
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After many hours of using the Berserker's Ring, I think I'm starting to not like it. Besides it disabling the Counter Slash/Shot, the animation and camera cut also kind of disrupt the combat flow for me.
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Jun 26, 2023 19:32
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ImpAtom posted:Wow, the group of dehumanized and enslaved people who can and will be killed for any reason up to and including 'it's really funny' tend to be passive and unlikely to speak out. Who would have fuckin' guessed? I mean, that also described a lot of historical examples of enslaved persons' situation, and they still generally engaged in uprisings and passive defiance where possible. But that happens in XVI. It's called "the player character and his entire band of outlaws slowly building a sustainable parallel society while leading a guerilla and vigilante movement." For some reason Clive doesn't register as a Bearer to some critics, but like... he's an enslaved noble. That happened a lot in Antiquity (which in my opinion is actually closer to what Valisthea is, it's just folks expect something closer to medieval Europe or New World chattel slavery)! HD DAD posted:Honestly, I think if XV had been an entirely different game with a more “traditional” cast, this pivot in XVI would have probably been given a bit more leeway. Like you, I have friends who took XV as SE’s definitive statement that women don’t matter. Which…wasn’t what happened, and is in itself a very dumb read, but I can at least understand it. Yeah I think you're right. I'm a little more sympathetic to their distaste for XV because honestly I find even the justifications for an all-male party kind of gross? But yeah, I think XVI is getting some leftover backlash from XV and, honestly, probably also from works like GoT. (This does not mean there are not valid elements to said criticism, it just doesn't drat the game in its entirety.) Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Jun 26, 2023 |
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Jun 26, 2023 19:34
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Bland posted:I'm usually the last person to go off on one about representation because frankly it's not particularly my lane, but Jill is just a weak character in general even before dealing with the fact that she's supposed to be the female lead. Despite being the "party member" you spend by far the most time with, she rarely actually adds anything to scenes where she's present, and often the game seems to entirely forget she's even present at all. (general game spoilers) Separate from how she's written in main story cutscenes, I think the way they structured the game in terms of party members constantly joining and leaving really hurt in this respect. Jill can be present for like almost all the side content post timeskip, but isn't guaranteed to be, so they had to write everything around her maybe not being there. She rarely gets like one or two lines commenting but it's a band aid. I feel like it would have been simpler to implement, better for the character, and not really even change that much else if she just permanently joined in the open world and could be actually written into the sidequests
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Jun 26, 2023 19:37
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How much game is left after you return to Phoenix Gate? Afaik I haven't hit any point of no return yet and people keep saying there's tons of game left *after* that, but I've also heard ~40 hours tossed around. I'm kinda taking my time exploring and doing sidequests so I'm trying to gauge how far along I actually am.
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Jun 26, 2023 19:41
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:How much game is left after you return to Phoenix Gate? Afaik I haven't hit any point of no return yet and people keep saying there's tons of game left *after* that, but I've also heard ~40 hours tossed around. I'm kinda taking my time exploring and doing sidequests so I'm trying to gauge how far along I actually am. You’re still in the game’s intro
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Jun 26, 2023 19:41
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:How much game is left after you return to Phoenix Gate? Afaik I haven't hit any point of no return yet and people keep saying there's tons of game left *after* that, but I've also heard ~40 hours tossed around. I'm kinda taking my time exploring and doing sidequests so I'm trying to gauge how far along I actually am. You're like less than 1/4 in.
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Jun 26, 2023 19:42
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No Mods No Masters posted:(general game spoilers) Separate from how she's written in main story cutscenes, I think the way they structured the game in terms of party members constantly joining and leaving really hurt in this respect. Jill can be present for like almost all the side content post timeskip, but isn't guaranteed to be, so they had to write everything around her maybe not being there. She rarely gets like one or two lines commenting but it's a band aid. I feel like it would have been simpler to implement, better for the character, and not really even change that much else if she just permanently joined in the open world and could be actually written into the sidequests I will say (second mothercrystal spoilers) Jill neither being playable during the Iron Kingdoms digression or getting the starring moment to actually destroy the Mothercrystal and instead collapsing due to exhaustion after having spent all her energies protecting you... is certainly a CHOICE, and not one I'm a fan of. When Joshua gets a little playable segment as a kid, you'd think they could have given Jill her own playable mini-sequence for her to resolve her own issues. Yes, I know her nemesis ultimately is just kind of a rando dude who can't even use magic and would make a bad boss, but it felt weirdly half-baked. And as I said, I don't know why - given that she can be such a constant presence - they didn't include mechanics to direct her attacks and sync up with them like they did with Torgal. She actually does a fair bit of damage per strike or spell, you just can't plan around it or integrate it into your battle plans in any way. Not that you need to, per se, given how much of a joke the average mooks are.
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Jun 26, 2023 19:42
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Jetrauben posted:Stranger of Paradise Were people complaining about female representation in SoP? Because Neon and Sophia both kick rear end and are important to the plot. Anyway, I know I say this literally every time I do an eikon battle, but WHAT THE gently caress HOW WAS THAT BETTER THAN THE LAST EIKON BATTLE MC4 I had called the Bahamut fight being a Joshua/Clive tag team fight but I didn't expect a fusion dance at all. To be honest until that bit I was thinking it was a bit overhyped, but it didn't help that I was dumb and failed the gigaflare charging up sequence twice because I didn't realise that I should have been charged magicing the orbs down. And then the battle complete freeze frame came up and I went "that's it?" and it turned out no, it was not it at all. loving love this game.
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Jun 26, 2023 19:44
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Ibblebibble posted:Were people complaining about female representation in SoP? Because Neon and Sophia both kick rear end and are important to the plot. I recall a fair bit of irritation about how bro-y the game presented itself as. Of course, it's also SoP, which is just a wild and weird game in general, so I expect at least some of it is literally just having to play Jack. EDIT: anyways, basically, yeah, I think a good chunk of the annoyance around XV, XVI and representation re: gender I've seen can be summed up by opinions like this: https://twitter.com/headfallsoff/status/1673340484993835022?s=20 Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Jun 26, 2023 |
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Jun 26, 2023 19:45
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Ibblebibble posted:Were people complaining about female representation in SoP? Because Neon and Sophia both kick rear end and are important to the plot. The best part is that it isn't a fusion dance. Ifrit got Phoenix Scrander!
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Jun 26, 2023 19:48
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Big Bowie Bonanza posted:You’re still in the game’s intro Hell yeah
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Jun 26, 2023 19:48
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My favorite story arc so far was the Holy Empire family. That was some really compelling poo poo, and had me most glued to the screen. Tbh I don't care that much about (halfway point spoilers) Ultima. Their motivations just seem kinda silly and I feel my interest waning whenever they're on screen. theblackw0lf fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Jun 26, 2023 |
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Jun 26, 2023 19:50
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Clive got caught shoplifting at Hot Topic
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Jun 26, 2023 19:53
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theblackw0lf posted:My favorite story arc so far was the Holy Empire family. That was some really compelling poo poo, and had me most glued to the screen. Ultima's purpose is to have a punchable face.
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Jun 26, 2023 19:54
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Lil Swamp Booger Baby posted:Clive got caught shoplifting at Hot Topic How could he not when he takes a solid 10 seconds to put something in his pocket
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Jun 26, 2023 19:54
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I passed a point of no return a bit ago and I didn't expect the turn the plot took and this game rules. Incredibly bold of a Final Fantasy game to star a 33 year old protagonist and also stars a Cid.
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Jun 26, 2023 20:01
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theblackw0lf posted:My favorite story arc so far was the Holy Empire family. That was some really compelling poo poo, and had me most glued to the screen. I'm sure this will be a common take and it's one I share. The story really pivots around bahamut in a lot of ways and I don't know if any of those ways are particularly good
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Jun 26, 2023 20:07
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Ibblebibble posted:Were people complaining about female representation in SoP? Because Neon and Sophia both kick rear end and are important to the plot. Me during most of the game: "oh neat, this is an attack from FF14." Me during that part: "OMG THIS IS THE ATTACK FROM FF14!!!" Teraflare is the reason I never try to skip the adds when doing Bahamut's fight for loot or catbook, and I was so dang happy.
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Jun 26, 2023 20:10
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I am surprised (mc4) Nobody mentioned Bahamut is finally equal ri Donald Duck.
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Jun 26, 2023 20:15
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blackthorne's 4th quest doing my best not to be ffxiv player but I see dragon's voice, I point at the screen and go "I know what comes next!!!!"
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Jun 26, 2023 20:16
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Kind of bounced off the demo and didn’t like what I heard in reviews but I’m glad I gave the game a chance anyway. Combat is sick cutscenes are cool story is great so far. More rpg and side content would be nice but w/e. Only thing I’m not a huge fan of is how boring and easy regular enemies are, but there’s a mini boss or boss like every 10 mins it feels like so that also hasn’t been a huge deal.
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Jun 26, 2023 20:30
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Jetrauben posted:I will say (second mothercrystal spoilers) Jill neither being playable during the Iron Kingdoms digression or getting the starring moment to actually destroy the Mothercrystal and instead collapsing due to exhaustion after having spent all her energies protecting you... is certainly a CHOICE, and not one I'm a fan of. When Joshua gets a little playable segment as a kid, you'd think they could have given Jill her own playable mini-sequence for her to resolve her own issues.  I was honestly surprised that it didn't happen.
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