|
Atlas Hugged posted:Anyone else ever noticed that for a peaceful, cooperative organization that promotes peace and enlightenment, the Federation sure is in and wins a lot of wars and military operations? The Federation is that old, retired gunslinger that is reluctant to use his skills but when push comes to shove will gun down entire gangs to save the town. The Federation is surrounded on pretty much all sides by multiple flavors of violent empires. It makes perfect sense that they'd get pretty good at ending wars when almost all of their neighbors like to start poo poo.
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 04:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 19:03 |
|
|
To maintain peace you must prepare for war.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 04:27
|
|
|
Arivia posted:It’s a show written by Americans for an American audience. Pretty rad, right?
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 04:30
|
|
|
8one6 posted:The Federation is that old, retired gunslinger that is reluctant to use his skills but when push comes to shove will gun down entire gangs to save the town. Space CIA starts the wars with Klingons and Romulans to drum up public support for the poor defenseless Federation who strategically only has one ship within 6 days reach, while also causing mass casualties for the opposing side.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 04:32
|
|
|
All of these are acceptable reasons, but at the same time I wish the aliens would lean into anti-Federation propaganda more than they do. I know it happens sometimes where an ambassador or alien captain will call out the hypocrisy of Federation values versus how they act, but it almost feels like it should be a central theme of the show, especially as more series lean into "pew pew pew lasers" over "scan scan scan science". Like, Wrath of Khan works so well for me and is so much better than Into Darkness because it's not about the Federation. It's about Kirk. There's no war here, no border disputes or conflict of interests between factions expanding into one another. There's no grand conspiracy that will shake stability in the Quadrant or wipe out all sentient life. It's just a space grudge that has far reaching implications, but isn't explicitly an existential threat.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 04:34
|
|
|
Atlas Hugged posted:Anyone else ever noticed that for a peaceful, cooperative organization that promotes peace and enlightenment, the Federation sure is in and wins a lot of wars and military operations? Given that all their neighbors are expansionist militaristic empires, and despite that they maintained peace with the Romulan Empire for more than two hundred years and were apparently only at war with the Klingon Empire in two very brief conflicts, I think the Federation deserves some credit for keeping the peace.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 04:34
|
|
|
DaveWoo posted:Just finished the Kira/Dukat episode early in Season 4 and... I dunno, this kinder, gentler version of Dukat isn't really working for me. He's pretty much masking, although he's not realised it yet. He has a delusion of being a noble person, and doesn't understand why other people don't share it because of possibly being a genuine narcissist. Kira just refuses to let him sell her that illusion. At least that's how I read it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 04:46
|
|
|
The Federation Charter is not a suicide pact. It was originally founded as basically a Space NATO of five worlds at war with the Romulans who realized they had to combine resources or get conquered. And thus, Starfleet's peaceful exploration ships have enough firepower to glass a planet.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 04:55
|
|
|
Also it's implied that the Federation is much larger than their enemies in those wars. If they'd maintained US-level military the wars would've been over instantly, but as is they keep their defence level relatively low, which is still enough to handily win.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 05:03
|
|
|
In Gul Dukat voice: Diplomacy enforced by a starship that can glass a planet is hardly diplomacy at all. Would you agree, commander? He's just incredibly jealous.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 05:17
|
|
|
Oh please anyone can glass half a planet.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 05:17
|
|
|
The shows rarely ever gave us a proper demonstration of how powerful 24th century tech could be, or how superior the Federation is to most of its neighbors. One good example is The Wounded when the USS Phoenix goes rogue and shits all over the Cardassian ships trying to stop it. Or for a slightly dumber example, the Voyager episode where the Prometheus obliterates a D'Deridex. The scene in The Die is Cast also comes to mind, where the 20-ship Romulan/Cardassian fleet bombards the planet and destroys 30% of the planetary crust in a single volley, before they find out the Dominion is the biggest shark in the water.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 05:49
|
|
|
FuturePastNow posted:The scene in The Die is Cast also comes to mind, where the 20-ship Romulan/Cardassian fleet bombards the planet and destroys 30% of the planetary crust in a single volley, before they find out the Dominion is the biggest shark in the water. That was loving hilarious.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 05:50
|
|
|
Atlas Hugged posted:That was loving hilarious. It's an amazing scene. The moment they realize they are completely hosed. quote:PILOT: The first barrage has hit the surface... There's an earlier scene in that episode where they discuss the plan, which includes this detail: quote:TAIN (to Garak): Our plan is to wait until we've entered orbit of the Founders' planet, then decloak and begin a massive bombardment. Destroy the mantle of a planet in five hours? No problem!
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 06:08
|
|
|
Hasn't it been shown that the Federation tends to do badly in any war against the Klingons though? Yesterday's Enterprise comes to mind, and the Klingon war arc in DS9. And that's not even counting Disco.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 07:32
|
|
|
Eighties ZomCom posted:Hasn't it been shown that the Federation tends to do badly in any war against the Klingons though? It's been a while, but I seem to recall the Federation-Klingon war in DS9 essentially reaching a stalemate and the cease-fire happened after the Martok changeling was revealed.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 07:52
|
|
|
FuturePastNow posted:The shows rarely ever gave us a proper demonstration of how powerful 24th century tech could be, or how superior the Federation is to most of its neighbors. One good example is The Wounded when the USS Phoenix goes rogue and shits all over the Cardassian ships trying to stop it. Or for a slightly dumber example, the Voyager episode where the Prometheus obliterates a D'Deridex. Lol if one fast rock hitting a planet causes a million years extinction event, what does sci-fi blasts obliterating 30% of the crust do?
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 08:15
|
|
|
Timby posted:It's been a while, but I seem to recall the Federation-Klingon war in DS9 essentially reaching a stalemate and the cease-fire happened after the Martok changeling was revealed. Yeah, the Klingons kicked their asses in the opening waves of the war but that was basically preparation and first strike advantage and it didn't last long enough for anything else. The war never really had a chance to move past the initial stages because the Federation got Martok exposed pretty quickly. FuturePastNow posted:The shows rarely ever gave us a proper demonstration of how powerful 24th century tech could be, or how superior the Federation is to most of its neighbors. One good example is The Wounded when the USS Phoenix goes rogue and shits all over the Cardassian ships trying to stop it. It was always implied that the Cardiassians were hilariously outmatched by the Federation in the big picture and the only reason the Federation didn't completely stomp them was a lack of will on the Federation's side to go to full war footing. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 08:52 on Jun 26, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 08:49
|
|
|
OK the Defiant firing on a Klingon Bird of Prey and it doing summersaults is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever seen in a Trek show.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 11:28
|
|
|
FuturePastNow posted:Or for a slightly dumber example, the Voyager episode where the Prometheus obliterates a D'Deridex. This episode never fails to make me laugh, though. “The secondary gyrodyne relays in the propulsion field inter-matrix have depolarized." "In English!" "I'm just reading what it says here!" “You hit the wrong ship!" "It wasn't my fault!" "Well, then whose fault was it, the torpedo's?! You're supposed to tell it what to do!"
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 11:31
|
|
|
Quark and Garak comparing the Federation to root beer is such a nice little exchange. One of my favorites so far.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 11:38
|
|
|
Now I'm wondering what Earth's government is called. I mean, each Federation member world has its own government, they're also just members of the Federation. But I don't think it's ever explicitly mentioned that Earth and the human polity has an actual government.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 14:33
|
|
|
I think the Federation president and Council are also the defacto government of Earth, since that's where it's located. For instance during the DS9 episode where Red Squad try to stage a coup on Earth, we see the Federation president but I don't recall them ever mentioning an Earth president or government.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 14:42
|
|
|
V-Men posted:Now I'm wondering what Earth's government is called. I mean, each Federation member world has its own government, they're also just members of the Federation. But I don't think it's ever explicitly mentioned that Earth and the human polity has an actual government. It’s just called United Earth. Has a notable space probe agency
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 14:44
|
|
|
The Homeland badmiral was probably pretty smug after the invasion of Betazed and death tolls approaching billions. Honestly post-Dominion war it's malpractice for the Federation to keep pushing this idea of peaceful exploration over public safety and security. Like how many times has humanity almost been wiped out, and that's just on the handful of ships that we've seen. Set that post-scarcity manufacturing base to "kill".
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 14:50
|
|
|
I guess it'd be like if the United States government and the UN swapped importance.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 14:51
|
|
|
V-Men posted:Now I'm wondering what Earth's government is called. I mean, each Federation member world has its own government, they're also just members of the Federation. But I don't think it's ever explicitly mentioned that Earth and the human polity has an actual government. United Earth This is their emblem during Enterprise and in the early days of the Federation through to discovery  This seemed to be their flag during TUC, they also used use just the 'sun-over-planet' as an emblem.  In the 24th they've switched back to the old logo but without the squashy map  In the 32nd century after Earth and Titan reestablish peaceful contact they apparently federate as 'United Earth and Titan' and seem to rejoin the Federation under that name at the end of S4.  The logo used in ENT actually fell out some earth-in-a-wreath logos we saw in early TOS before the Federation was established. Enterprise basically retconned that to be a UE logo. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Jun 26, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2023 16:11
|
|
|
Starship Down is an absolute highlight of the series so far. I love me a good submarine episode.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2023 01:47
|
|
|
Starship Down and Civil Defense are way up there as my favorite episodes of DS9. Maybe not the BEST, but everybody has a plot, tons of great interactions, terrific stories, they rule.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2023 01:58
|
|
|
I just rewatched the DS9 episode of Lower Decks and it makes so much more sense now.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2023 02:27
|
|
|
it's tuvix time!
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2023 02:31
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:Yeah, the Klingons kicked their asses in the opening waves of the war but that was basically preparation and first strike advantage and it didn't last long enough for anything else. The war never really had a chance to move past the initial stages because the Federation got Martok exposed pretty quickly. The Federation seems matched by, and maybe even slightly outgunned by the Romulans and the Breen. However, both of those species dislike direct conflict, which actually makes a lot of sense considering the scale of destruction wrought by even a single vessel. The Klingons seem to be a bit weaker than the federation in the TNG/DS9 era. The Klingons that are upset about the peace have somewhat of a point, in that regard. They make up for that by their enthusiasm, and actually being good at fighting when not lead by idiots. The Cardasssians seem a match for the Klingons in firepower and cruelty, but not so tactically. The Federation-Cardasssian war having lasted as long is a bit of a mystery, but I think it is implied that multiple truces and peace attempts by the Federation were exploited by the Cardasssians. They're an empire in decline, if not broken. thotsky fucked around with this message at 10:08 on Jun 27, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2023 10:05
|
|
|
thotsky posted:The Federation-Cardasssian war having lasted as long is a bit of a mystery, but I think it is implied that multiple truces and peace attempts by the Federation were exploited by the Cardasssians. They're an empire in decline, if not broken. I think it's also implied that the Cardassians put a lot of resources into the war and it was their main focus where as for the federation it was just one of many boarder conflict that if you have boarders as big as the Federation you just have to sometimes deal with.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2023 10:45
|
|
|
Eighties ZomCom posted:I think the Federation president and Council are also the defacto government of Earth, since that's where it's located. The early drafts of Homefront apparently went into more detail about how much authority the Federation president has over Earth and mentioned United Earth, but it was all cut for time and to streamline the story. It's kinda funny that, after so many episodes, we still don't really know anything about how the Federation government works - there's never been an episode that's established how the Federation council or the president is elected, or what sort of authority they have over member worlds.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2023 10:47
|
|
|
dr_rat posted:I think it's also implied that the Cardassians put a lot of resources into the war and it was their main focus where as for the federation it was just one of many boarder conflict that if you have boarders as big as the Federation you just have to sometimes deal with. The Federation suffered plenty of losses, most of the captains we follow took part in the conflict, and Statrfleet Command is very invested in making the treaty work, so it's not like it was a small deal, but the fallout seems to be that the Cardasssians are bloodied, counting their blessings with how things shook out, but essentially unbowed. Maybe a kind of what-if the war in the pacific ended with a truce rather than the occupation of Japan.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2023 11:40
|
|
|
Angry Salami posted:It's kinda funny that, after so many episodes, we still don't really know anything about how the Federation government works - there's never been an episode that's established how the Federation council or the president is elected, or what sort of authority they have over member worlds. I think this is the reason that when the old novel continuity did a book about the newly elected President (because the author wanted to do The West Wing In Space), it was actually a surprise hit and turned her into one of the more popular recurring characters for a while. People were just happy to see anything about the Federation political structure.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2023 12:11
|
|
|
Angry Salami posted:It's kinda funny that, after so many episodes, we still don't really know anything about how the Federation government works - there's never been an episode that's established how the Federation council or the president is elected, or what sort of authority they have over member worlds. Honestly, I kinda prefer that. This is a superior future political system, let's not have writers throw in a lazy copy of the american political system, let's just let it be something we don't need to get into but that future experts smarter than any of us designed. thotsky posted:The Federation seems matched by, and maybe even slightly outgunned by the Romulans and the Breen. However, both of those species dislike direct conflict, which actually makes a lot of sense considering the scale of destruction wrought by even a single vessel. Eh, I always got the impression that the Romulans were never anywhere near going to win in an outright firefight war - they were the civilisation closest to the Federation tech-wise and with powerful ships, but they aren't big enough as an empire to have defeated the Federation. Which is why they're often working to undermine and weaken them. But with high-tech cloaking ships they could do so much damage that it's not something the Federation would ever be willing to go at. I don't know that the Breen were anywhere near equal to the Federation in power - when they entered the war, they tipped the scales pretty heavily (although a lot of that was because of their special weapon) but they didn't have so much of an effect that it's like they could've taken the Federation solo. It seems like it's probably another case where they're technologically equal and highly militarised, but their civilisation isn't large enough to directly outgun the Federation. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Jun 27, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2023 12:46
|
|
|
disaster pastor posted:I think this is the reason that when the old novel continuity did a book about the newly elected President (because the author wanted to do The West Wing In Space), it was actually a surprise hit and turned her into one of the more popular recurring characters for a while. People were just happy to see anything about the Federation political structure. Lol "West Wing in Star Trek" was like catnip to high-school-age me, I loved that book.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2023 14:06
|
|
|
Yeah, the federation seems to be larger than most of the other empires, possibly quite a bit larger, but Starfleet is not really a standing army and I don't think its military might is proportional to the size of the Federation. I think we can assume the Federation is unwilling to be on war footing unless the threat is existential.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2023 14:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 19:03 |
|
|
Honestly, Starfleet should be maintaining a military reserve fleet.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2023 14:25
|
|