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John Murdoch posted:Not according to multiple other people itt, which is how we got here. :p And I disagree with them! The real version of events is close but separate to the sim. The game is not the real version of events. This is easy to accept in Mooncrash. For some reason (because there is one main character) it’s harder to accept in the main game.
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Jun 20, 2023 02:12
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Mike the TV posted:They are operators because they died in the real history of events and they were only “saved” in the simulation. The reality is that Morgan was not a super soldier and lost a lot of people. But in the sim you can do whatever. It ends up being very similar to Mooncrash in that sense. Even if they were saved from Talos, based on how things are going on earth they could have easily died later. I think it's more reasonable they were saved from Talos, though, and that's how they got the scans and built the simulation to begin with, since the full personality and memory upload tech was barely available when things went to poo poo. If they died, they probably died earthside.
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Jun 20, 2023 02:14
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yeah the game kinda ends on the reveal that almost all of humanity has been killed since the events of the game, including morgan
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Jun 20, 2023 02:16
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Arc Light posted:For all that the Typhons needed mirror neurons to experience empathy, it sure looked like OG Morgan needed Typhon material to do the same. The more Typhon material that went into Morgan over time, via neuromods, the less of a sociopath that Morgan became. Hence how the operators progressed from October to January. Started out as a failsafe to contain the experiments, with October clued in to Morgan's plan for the nullwave device, back when Morgan still wanted the station to survive for future use. Subsequently, December was part of a later Morgan's plan to escape the station and expose Transtar's experiments to the public, and finally an even later iteration of Morgan decided that wasn't enough, and everything had to be destroyed, leading to January. I think him constantly losing parts of himself and his past, memories and experiences, means losing the parts that build the framework for a person able to do such horrible poo poo so often.
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Jun 20, 2023 03:09
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KittyEmpress posted:But it's likely that the Talos 1 event actually happened, and probably went down within the broad strokes of the narrative, with Morgan and Alex's experimentation and neuromod gently caress ups coming to a head, and Morgan having to act as hero to the station. The implication I seemed to get is that the coral network on earth in the end probably means that Morgan saved the escape pod and let them flee, but it was the wrong choice and something went with them, and things got out of control, normal fighting didnt work. So now the last ditch effort is trying to see if they can combat the typhon threat a new way, by introducing Empathy to them. Based on what we see in the game, I've always assumed that even if the sim is a true recreation of events, neither the fate of the escape pod nor shuttle Advent matter matter when it comes to Earth -- it is very likely that mimics had already made it there on other routine flights. The ending of Mooncrash implies another possible vector.
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Jun 20, 2023 03:11
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ToxicFrog posted:Based on what we see in the game, I've always assumed that even if the sim is a true recreation of events, neither the fate of the escape pod nor shuttle Advent matter matter when it comes to Earth -- it is very likely that mimics had already made it there on other routine flights. The ending of Mooncrash implies another possible vector. Given how there are multiple close calls on the station itself before the events of the game (ex. the circuit breaker audio log), as well as people making the trip to and from Talos for neuromod recording sessions, it’s reasonable to expect that Advent was compromised but absolutely not the first or only vector for Earth getting mimic exposures. They had escaped containment well before the obvious breach scenario began.
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Jun 20, 2023 04:21
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Tortolia posted:Given how there are multiple close calls on the station itself before the events of the game (ex. the circuit breaker audio log), as well as people making the trip to and from Talos for neuromod recording sessions, it’s reasonable to expect that Advent was compromised but absolutely not the first or only vector for Earth getting mimic exposures. They had escaped containment well before the obvious breach scenario began. Yeah, it was pretty clearly a coordinated attack by the Typhons, after enough of them were in place to overwhelm security procedures. One of the audio logs (or an email, I forget) describes a Weaver that was encountered by a maintenance worker during an EVA prior to the big breakout/attack. Obviously, the maintenance technician didn't know what a Weaver was, or even what a Typhon was, but the visual description and the inexplicable fear response made it unmistakable.
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Jun 20, 2023 04:33
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I liked the game and its ending
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Jun 20, 2023 04:53
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Your Uncle Dracula posted:I liked the game and its ending I also liked the game and its ending. I'm also enjoying this meta-discussion about the game. A very small part of that is observing the pronouns various posters use to describe Morgan. I should go replay Mooncrash. Teledahn fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Jun 20, 2023 |
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Jun 20, 2023 05:00
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Arc Light posted:Yeah, it was pretty clearly a coordinated attack by the Typhons, after enough of them were in place to overwhelm security procedures. One of the audio logs (or an email, I forget) describes a Weaver that was encountered by a maintenance worker during an EVA prior to the big breakout/attack. Obviously, the maintenance technician didn't know what a Weaver was, or even what a Typhon was, but the visual description and the inexplicable fear response made it unmistakable. quote:I keep having this... dream. I'm just staring into the black between the stars. There's something there. I know there is. I just can't see it... but it sees me. I can feel it... hate us. Always really liked this audio log. Same with the ones from Calvino and Kohl talking about the dreams of Typhon.
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Jun 20, 2023 10:15
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This has been making me think back to a poster a couple of years ago who had a complete mental breakdown because they saw the ending as a trite 'it was just a dream'. The way they were going on about it you'd think the game killed his family. Edit: and the ending is good and absolutely not 'just a dream'. It's tied into the narrative from the very beginning and adds a subtle melancholy to replays.
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Jun 20, 2023 16:13
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aniviron posted:Always really liked this audio log. Same with the ones from Calvino and Kohl talking about the dreams of Typhon.
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Jun 20, 2023 17:55
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Teledahn posted:A very small part of that is observing the pronouns various posters use to describe Morgan. I always find it briefly jarring when I'm reading the thread and someone refers to he-Morgan, like, who are they talking about again? Oh right. Khanstant posted:I think him constantly losing parts of himself and his past, memories and experiences, means losing the parts that build the framework for a person able to do such horrible poo poo so often. Yeah, that was basically my interpretation as well -- Morgan and Alex are both monsters but a significant amount of the blame rests on the rest of their family, and repeatedly getting rebooted via neuromods is slowly eroding other parts of her brain, including the "be just awful" parts she picked up growing up.
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Jun 20, 2023 17:59
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It's been a while since I've played so my recollection is a bit fuzzy, but I got the impression that pre-testing Morgan is similar to Alex in ethics, but some of the post testing iterations pick up a conscience. Gameplay Morgan is whatever you make of it of course.
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Jun 20, 2023 18:06
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I don't know if they did it on purpose but it's definitely cool how Morgan becomes more ethical as they forget aspects of being brought up in their family. My favorite tidbit on how hosed up your family environment was is how Alex just broke your arm as a kid because you messed up one of their save games. Man there are so many cool mental and existential angles Prey could really explore. It's such a great setup.
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Jun 20, 2023 18:38
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I don’t remember getting the sense that Morgan loses any long term memory, nor the sense that recall is really tied up in the variance in how Morgan thinks and acts between tests. Remember that the whole reason Alex has Morgan sent to the shrink is that as a result of either natural (the body remembering what the brain doesn’t) or unnatural (a side effect of directly loving with the brain) processes, Morgan is suffering from measurable “personality drift” that should theoretically be kept in check by the mind wipes (an element which manifests in the January / October schism and strongly recalls PS:T). They’re trying to track and contain the disruptive potential of such drifts in Morgan toward paranoia when, being very smart, they realize they’re in a Groundhog Day scenario and attempt to sabotage it. That Morgan does effectively sabotage the loop experiment is the second and somewhat lesser failure of containment that Alex oversees.
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Jun 20, 2023 19:43
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Looking back on it I think the one thing which I felt and still feel was a missed narrative opportunity is the fact that January was basically trustworthy, never resorting to manipulation beyond straightforward, earnest attempts at persuasion. It makes sense if it’s not an actual AI, but it limits the potential for drama.
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Jun 20, 2023 19:50
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Prey was fun to play but ,cmon now, it is not System Shock 3.
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Jun 20, 2023 20:16
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You’re right… it’s better
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Jun 20, 2023 20:30
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The existence of December -is- the stand in for January being untrustworthy. It’s just a relatively recent scan of Morgan, after all. What’s to say it’s any better than November?
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Jun 20, 2023 21:48
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I mean you can disagree with January’s reasoning, but the character, such as it is, is an honest one. It’s very open about its reasons for doing anything (including things that could read as sketch) and does not embellish or lie about anything, even when doing so could ease its way. It’s a character you can doubt, but you’re only paranoid about its motives the first time you play. It sort of naturally assumes that its arguments are self-evidently correct, and as such, is basically guileless. Which is not invalid, as characterization. It’s just that the operators, as weird and uncanny as they are, don’t engage with the paranoiac elements of the story because they’re not quite actors the way the human characters are. January’s interference against using the escape pod is not really that manipulative — it can’t seem to comprehend that Morgan wouldn’t agree with it, and in the end seems to view its actions as removing impediments rather than removing options. Basic Chunnel fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Jun 20, 2023 |
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Jun 20, 2023 22:38
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Basic Chunnel posted:You’re right… it’s better Better? No. Prey is a good game, but it’s missing the parts that made System Shock 2 really creepy.
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Jun 20, 2023 22:42
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Prey is actually so good it's system shock 2 and system shock one gets pushed to 0
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Jun 20, 2023 22:46
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in Prey you can go OUTSIDE the station. so fuckin cool.
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Jun 20, 2023 22:50
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The game brings up interesting questions about which you is you, or which Yu is Yu, if you prefer, har har. There're a lot of Morgans banging around: Total sociopath Morgan feeding people to mimics. Reckless optimistic Morgan who totes is going to change the world. Slightly-concerned Morgan who makes October and the pulsewave bomb "just in case". FILE NOT FOUND Morgan who made November. gently caress this poo poo I'm out Morgan who made December and plans to bail. Doomsday Morgan who made January and plans to DFE You And it's interesting trying to trace out from various logs and statements which Morgan people were dealing with while you're going through the game. It also raises the question, given how many iterations have inhabited the same body, which one deserves consideration from the current one. The operators obviously align with the one who made them; January even says that you ought to ignore the wishes of original Morgan after you learn more. For my part, I say gently caress 'em all. For all intents and purposes, they're dead, and just existing before current-Yu doesn't necessarily imbue them with any insight or wisdom that your iteration lacks. The person in the driver's seat right now has to make the call off of what they can put together out of the whole clusterfuck.
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Jun 20, 2023 22:59
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The operator talk makes me wonder, because I too assumed that they're not Strong AI as we think of it, but then, when they get corrupted they seem to come up with novel phrases. Maybe that's an optimistic reading of things, but to me the fact that they come up with unique dialogue for being taken over as well as the fact that the typhon colonize them in the first place suggests some kind of intelligence.
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Jun 21, 2023 00:36
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aniviron posted:The operator talk makes me wonder, because I too assumed that they're not Strong AI as we think of it, but then, when they get corrupted they seem to come up with novel phrases. Maybe that's an optimistic reading of things, but to me the fact that they come up with unique dialogue for being taken over as well as the fact that the typhon colonize them in the first place suggests some kind of intelligence. The military operators operate via a "Synthetic Hyperdynamic Neural Network" while one of the cut content quests involved turning an operator into a sapient hybrot. So it probably varies.
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Jun 21, 2023 00:52
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Valatar posted:The operators obviously align with the one who made them; January even says that you ought to ignore the wishes of original Morgan after you learn more. I absolutely agree with your idea about who the "real" Morgan is. It's your current iteration right up until you realize it isn't. With that said, January makes imo the single most compelling argument for their worldview late in the game, after you meet Alex face to face, "Morgan, you anticipated the kind of appeal Alex would make. Sibling bonds. History. You programmed me to refute him point by point. However, we can skip that. A Typhon the size of a skyscraper is currently eating Talos I for lunch. Ergo, Alex is wrong."
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Jun 21, 2023 05:19
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Flinger posted:Prey is actually so good it's system shock 2 and system shock one gets pushed to 0 Prey is an homage to System Shock 2, both of which are excellent games, well until you get to the body of the many because holy poo poo I almost quit. E: Dead Space is closer to feeling like System Shock 2 than Prey. Prey is a very clever deconstruction of SS2. tango alpha delta fucked around with this message at 06:54 on Jun 21, 2023 |
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Jun 21, 2023 05:23
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lmao I remember using some trainer at that point because I was just sick of fucknig wit hit at that point. I get what they wanted to do but they weren't able to cut it. I consider Prey to be System Shock 3, updated to modern times and approach. Not like we'll be getting another System Shock and w every game Arkane strays further from Prey's light.
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Jun 21, 2023 05:46
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It's a shame that Spector's SS3 is dead in the water. Nightdive's SS1 reboot has done well for itself, it demonstrates that there is interest.
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Jun 21, 2023 09:25
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aniviron posted:The operator talk makes me wonder, because I too assumed that they're not Strong AI as we think of it, but then, when they get corrupted they seem to come up with novel phrases. Maybe that's an optimistic reading of things, but to me the fact that they come up with unique dialogue for being taken over as well as the fact that the typhon colonize them in the first place suggests some kind of intelligence. They are definitely Strong AI, but they are Strong AI of... varying sub-human complexity and and capabilities. The most advanced operators, like the ones on the Moon Research Lab (and presumably the ones in the ending), are basically real people, while the normal medical operators are significantly more basic.
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Jun 21, 2023 12:56
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There's an excerpt from an in-game news clipping about how some rich rear end in a top hat got an operator in a posh ivory humanoid chassis to be the executor of his will, much to the irritation of his family and sparking legal debate on it. Seeing how executors have to be of sound mind, that's pretty strong support for 'strong AI'.
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Jun 21, 2023 13:35
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Serephina posted:There's an excerpt from an in-game news clipping about how some rich rear end in a top hat got an operator in a posh ivory humanoid chassis to be the executor of his will, much to the irritation of his family and sparking legal debate on it. Seeing how executors have to be of sound mind, that's pretty strong support for 'strong AI'. That's one is an organic recreation of his actual brain made using the same process used to design neuromods. It's just hooked up to the robot. That's also what the disc gun kinda was.
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Jun 21, 2023 14:07
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Did System Shock 2 have a gloo gun? That thing was great.
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Jun 21, 2023 15:06
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Serephina posted:There's an excerpt from an in-game news clipping about how some rich rear end in a top hat got an operator in a posh ivory humanoid chassis to be the executor of his will, much to the irritation of his family and sparking legal debate on it. Seeing how executors have to be of sound mind, that's pretty strong support for 'strong AI'.
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Jun 21, 2023 17:36
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In any case I think a constructivist ontology / theory of mind (ie “a perfect physical representation of a person’s living brain is a meaningfully perfect clone of the person”) isn’t something the game actually endorses. January is distinct from the Morgan that created it, certainly distinct from the “Morgan” the player controls, and neither it nor October really see themselves as Morgans (January states this outright iirc), hence their full dependence on persuading the player-Morgan rather than pursuing their goals independently. They are designed with limited agency because their goal is to aid, not act. At the same time there’s the implication that Morgan is advancing operator design at the time of the game (eg, Skillet the chefbot), and whether the station personality operators at the ending are more advanced than January is kind of an open question, though the idea that Alex has been alone in the world aside from imperfect chatbot versions of his colleagues would be suitably bleak Twilight Zone vibes. Ofc if the sentient gun had made it into the game that would have sealed things anyway — the proposed arc would seem to imply that true artificial consciousness comes with extreme existential despair, which none of the other AIs would seem to exhibit. Ergo, they are not true AI.
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Jun 21, 2023 17:59
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Basic Chunnel posted:In any case I think a constructivist ontology / theory of mind (ie “a perfect physical representation of a person’s living brain is a meaningfully perfect clone of the person”) isn’t something the game actually endorses. January is distinct from the Morgan that created it, certainly distinct from the “Morgan” the player controls, and neither it nor October really see themselves as Morgans (January states this outright iirc), hence their full dependence on persuading the player-Morgan rather than pursuing their goals independently. They are designed with limited agency because their goal is to aid, not act. The operators you see running around the station throughout the game are normal robots running software, while the billionaire guy's proxy and the disc gun are hybrots. They're actual organic brains operating the synthetic machine part. You're supposed to be making a comparison between them and Morgan, not them and the robots. The disc gun's whole existential crisis was based on the fact that it was a disc gun and it didn't particularly want to be a gun. The player would have an option to hook it up to a medical operator and it was fine once you did that.
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Jun 21, 2023 20:15
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I somehow missed this game. I just picked it up for PC and holy poo poo. I don’t have a lot of time to play unfortunately, but god drat do I want to go on a 12 hour bender with this one. I haven’t read this thread in order to avoid spoilers, but I will say randomly clicking on this thread is what drew my attention to Prey. So, thanks!
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Jun 28, 2023 02:43
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Marklar posted:I somehow missed this game. I just picked it up for PC and holy poo poo. I don’t have a lot of time to play unfortunately, but god drat do I want to go on a 12 hour bender with this one. Please keep us apprised of your progress and enjoy. It's a wonderful experience for Yu
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Jun 28, 2023 02:46
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