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There's honestly probably a PHD's worth of material in our collective reaction to Man of Steel. The anticipation before it (finally, he punches things!) then the immediate reaction (I saw a lot of people who recited the take that it didn't work because he was too concerned with 'realism' a take they'd recycled from the Nolan films) and then the absolute brain melt insular takes where people hated an entirely different movie to the one that came out. I can't remember another film that produced such weird takes, that broke people's brains to the same extent. I get not liking films, but people got this filter or search/replace function in their mind when it came to Man of Steel. You know the stuff, things about how Superman doesn't save anyone or the 'maybe' scene.
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Jun 26, 2023 23:06
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In the last decade "realism" mutated into "grounded". It's a thing movie weenies claim they want, right up until they somehow don't. Notice this shows up everywhere these days. It's just a word they use. See also "cohesive", a word they learned 15 years ago and think it somehow implies quality. In any case, the "realism" is what makes MoS as good as it is, because it means the movie sticks to its premise. Pa Kent was right, and sacrificed himself because of his correct fear - the world is not ready for Superman; he had to prove himself, to both them and himself. And we see the fallout in BvS. The little people love him (paint the symbol on their roof), the billionaires hate him. So it goes.
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Jun 26, 2023 23:45
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I wrote himself three times in one sentence. JFC Anyway, one idle tidbit that is in my mind recently re MoS: from memory, in the movie where Superman doesn't save anyone, the second thing we see adult Clark doing is saving a bunch of roustabouts. Which is fine. However the first thing we see adult Clark doing is being saved by a dude on the fishing boat. But how was he actually saved? A fishing crane clobbering Clark wouldn't hurt him in the slightest, he'd just shrug it off! lolandlmaosynderdosentgetthechararrcterlol  etcAs we infer later, he was saved because he wasn't exposed. It all hangs together. Fantastic stuff.
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Jun 27, 2023 00:02
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Only Kindness posted:In any case, the "realism" is what makes MoS as good as it is, because it means the movie sticks to its premise. Pa Kent was right, and sacrificed himself because of his correct fear - the world is not ready for Superman; he had to prove himself, to both them and himself. And we see the fallout in BvS. The little people love him (paint the symbol on their roof), the billionaires hate him. So it goes. And even the love people have for Superman edges towards worship rather than the inspiration he intends, which would be impossible for a teenager to manage. When he pictures the perspective of the woman who painted his symbol on her roof, he's obscuring the sun. His father knows that whoever he decides to be, good or bad, he's going to change the world. That burden, either way, shouldn't rest on a child.
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Jun 27, 2023 00:11
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I love James Gunn. I think the GOTG trilogy is the best thing Marvel has ever made. I love Slither. I love Dawn of the Dead. I had a great time with Super. Not a fan of TSS but really enjoyed Peacemaker. I have zero faith in his whatever vision he has for DC because its predicated on nothing but studio hubris. At the very least there was a slower start to the DCEU and even MCU by some metric, this cynical overly confident pre-release franchise building without a single proven film is always such an insanely blind gamble. It feels like WB is constantly trying to force me into a CBM Timeshare.
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Jun 27, 2023 00:16
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I've probably said this before but the main thing that bothers me about the upcoming DCU is that Gunn talks a big game about it being "creator-driven" but it's not, it's IP-driven. He opened with a bunch of IPs they're doing and they'll fill in the creators later. If he said "We gave Zach Creggar his choice of any DC IP to adapt, he hasn't decided what yet so we don't know, but look forward to that" that would be exciting. Instead he's telling us all "All-Star Superman and Creature Commandos are happening and we'll figure out who's directing them later." His main goal is clearly to adapt the Marvel model to DC, which is very exciting to a certain kind of nerd I'm sure, but that model itself is starting to wear thin on audiences and by the time we get to Superman versus The Authority I'm not sure they're still gonna be interested. Marvel fans love to crow about how "superhero fatigue isn't real!" but then even the best-reviewed MCU movies make less than their predecessor and The Flash makes 70% on RT and still might be the biggest bomb of the year. He's sprinting with complete confidence headfirst into a brick wall.
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Jun 27, 2023 00:41
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What I think would have been the big brain move is to have just simply said "hey we wanna do a new Superman movie, we would be thrilled to carry him into a big new DC franchise in the future but we aren't concerned about that right now, we just really want to make this Superman movie because we love Superman and think the fans will love it the same way they've loved The Batman and Joker" and then just like those two movies, gauge the response critically and financially and grow from there. A slow drip where you slowly revealed the pieces of the new DCU before committing to a massive 10 year plan would have been psychologically a lot easier for audiences to get excited about. But of course this is entirely because WB is highly in debt and they need a revenue flow from DC the size of the MCU and has nothing to do with whats right narratively. Its so transparent.
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Jun 27, 2023 01:09
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Pirate Jet posted:I've probably said this before but the main thing that bothers me about the upcoming DCU is that Gunn talks a big game about it being "creator-driven" but it's not, it's IP-driven. He opened with a bunch of IPs they're doing and they'll fill in the creators later. If he said "We gave Zach Creggar his choice of any DC IP to adapt, he hasn't decided what yet so we don't know, but look forward to that" that would be exciting. Instead he's telling us all "All-Star Superman and Creature Commandos are happening and we'll figure out who's directing them later." Having an attempted "studio style" undercuts a lot of the chances of having "creator driven" films. The most "creator driven" MCU films are probably Eternals and Thor, which have a pretty mixed reputation. The "creator driven" Star Wars movies are the same. The issue comes down to that a part of the audience wants consistent style, they love the episodic nature. Another part of the audience wants stand-alone, unique stuff. Having a mix doesn't really work, either - Patty Jenkins couldn't match Snyder's action scenes in WW.
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Jun 27, 2023 02:22
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AccountSupervisor posted:At the very least there was a slower start to the DCEU and even MCU by some metric, this cynical overly confident pre-release franchise building without a single proven film is always such an insanely blind gamble. Not just no proven film, the near future is still all about getting the meaningless flotsam and jetsam of the old universe out of the way. WB is proudly declaring their investment into the new Dark Universe, but have three more I, Frankensteins to push out before they start filming The Mummy.
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Jun 27, 2023 12:42
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Snowman_McK posted:There's honestly probably a PHD's worth of material in our collective reaction to Man of Steel. The anticipation before it (finally, he punches things!) then the immediate reaction (I saw a lot of people who recited the take that it didn't work because he was too concerned with 'realism' a take they'd recycled from the Nolan films) and then the absolute brain melt insular takes where people hated an entirely different movie to the one that came out. I can't remember another film that produced such weird takes, that broke people's brains to the same extent. I get not liking films, but people got this filter or search/replace function in their mind when it came to Man of Steel. You know the stuff, things about how Superman doesn't save anyone or the 'maybe' scene. I remember especially the years long clarion call after Superman Returns of WE JUST WANT TO SEE SUPERMAN PUNCH A ROBOT REALLY REALLY HARD and holy poo poo does Man of Steel deliver on that with the world engine scene. Also I like how it puts him in the middle of a tornado esque thing like his dad but he makes that final choice of humanity over Krypton after him super perceiving Perry White and that other guy staying to help Jenny out of the wreckage.
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Jun 27, 2023 14:03
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I still don't understand how people saw Avengers and all the destruction in that final battle and said "that's fine" And then Man of Steel got so much hand wringing and pearl clutching about "invoking 9/11" imagery, I guess if Superman nodded to the metropolis PD saying "I got this guy, you guys save the civilians" before fighting Zod, maybe the reaction would've toned down.  I gotta say rewatching MOS, BvS, and ZSJL, I love the cinematography, I love the grain and texture, it's world feels more real. I feel that's why when I watch a lot of superhero movies, if I'm bored by the story then I start noticing the flat lightning and framing.
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Jun 27, 2023 16:38
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Avengers is totally bloodless, triumphant, and the tone is "they're winning". Man of Steel's tone is apocalyptic, messy, and the tone is "he's losing".
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Jun 27, 2023 16:44
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Miching Mallecho posted:I still don't understand how people saw Avengers and all the destruction in that final battle and said "that's fine" By the time of the arrow-guy show it had been downgraded to a bit of property damage, maybe a few people got a headache from all the noise. War Of The Worlds 2005 deliberately had plenty of 9/11 imagery, plus people being vaporised on-screen, plus literal blood rain. The uproar continues to this d-- oh wait.
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Jun 27, 2023 16:57
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Miching Mallecho posted:I still don't understand how people saw Avengers and all the destruction in that final battle and said "that's fine" its because the action was good and consequential.
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Jun 27, 2023 18:01
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Only Kindness posted:By the time of the arrow-guy show it had been downgraded to a bit of property damage, maybe a few people got a headache from all the noise. well, epic film dorkus can't point to steven spielberg and say "spielberg doesn't get the point of War of the Worlds!" because they would rightfully be laughed at.
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Jun 27, 2023 18:03
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Tankbuster posted:its because the action was good and consequential. The Avengers action? lol
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Jun 27, 2023 18:04
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Only Kindness posted:War Of The Worlds 2005 deliberately had plenty of 9/11 imagery, plus people being vaporised on-screen, plus literal blood rain. The uproar continues to this d-- oh wait. I forgot that movie existed tbh
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Jun 27, 2023 18:51
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Avengers is totally bloodless, triumphant, and the tone is "they're winning". Man of Steel's tone is apocalyptic, messy, and the tone is "he's losing". At that time especially if it was the EXACT same movie but Superman said "You're a real pain the neck!" before snapping Zod's neck people would have loved it.
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Jun 27, 2023 18:55
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Neo Rasa posted:At that time especially if it was the EXACT same movie but Superman said "You're a real pain the neck!" before snapping Zod's neck people would have loved it. Also, there would have to be a post-credit scene with Lois taking Clark out to get kebabs after he arrived at Metropolis. It's pretty hilarious since there are a lot of jokes and audience winks in MoS, like it ending with Lois welcoming Clark to "the planet."
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Jun 27, 2023 22:12
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Neo Rasa posted:At that time especially if it was the EXACT same movie but Superman said "You're a real pain the neck!" before snapping Zod's neck people would have loved it. I politely disagree. The 9/11 imagery and the superior selling of physicality and consequence would have felt like tonal whiplash. The reality is, it's not much of a jump from the Saturday Morning Cartoon violence of the Avengers to the Saturday Morning Cartoon quipping. Whereas Superman fighting for his life, airplanes coming down, people getting gravity smashed, etc. is treated like an actual science fiction disaster film about crazy aliens duking it out in a major city. In fact, Man of Steel treating it like it's a disaster flick and not a wham bang capeshit gallery is part of what bothers people. The tone is, "wow, this is bad. It's awe-inspiring, yes, but you wouldn't want this to happen near you." While the idea of seeing Captain America whip alien butt at the expense of a couple dozen cars is much more palatable.
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Jun 27, 2023 22:25
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There's also a very deliberate conceit in how Man of Steel is shot. Virtually every shot is made to feel like it could physically exist, including the shots where everything is CGI. The camera whips around, trying to catch the movement of two superfast beings. It zooms in at a distance, trying to make sense of a cataclysm that's happening over there. The Kryptonian leap towards the cockpit of the plane is captured by it's nose camera (or possibly a camera in the cockpit, I'd have to check). Even when it flies with Superman in that cool shot where he punches Zod so hard Zod has a sonic boom, the camera just moves alongside them, it doesn't pivot around, tracking them perfectly. It's a subtle thing, but there's a consistent idea that the camera is struggling to keep up with what's happening. There isn't an equivalent of that impossibly smooth tracking shot that looks at every Avenger in turn. In fact, it very deliberately eschews that style. You're left with a major action scene that, while it looks amazing, has camera work that feels a little like it was pieced together after the fact. It's also in deliberate contrast with Snyder's other action scenes, with their speed ramping. The speed ramping is how those characters saw themselves, while Man of Steel's action is how we (regular humans and bystanders) see it. It's kind of like in anime, where it zooms out and the sword fight is just a blur, except it's meant to be terrifying instead of cool.
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Jun 27, 2023 23:01
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:In fact, Man of Steel treating it like it's a disaster flick and not a wham bang capeshit gallery is part of what bothers people. The tone is, "wow, this is bad. It's awe-inspiring, yes, but you wouldn't want this to happen near you." While the idea of seeing Captain America whip alien butt at the expense of a couple dozen cars is much more palatable. I didn't see Man of Steel when it came out, as I just wasn't particularly interested in a Superman movie. Reading the comic book movie thread began to pique my interest in the movie though, and someone (I forget who) said that MoS was very much 'the idea of God is comforting, the reality of God is terrifying' and that was what made me track it down and watch it.
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Jun 28, 2023 00:41
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Neo Rasa posted:At that time especially if it was the EXACT same movie but Superman said "You're a real pain the neck!" before snapping Zod's neck people would have loved it. For all the hand-wringing about not saving people or whatever, it’s obviously this kind of poo poo. This argument is done to death ITT, but the Snyder movies are hated because they deny the power fantasy aspects typical of these stories. They’re interested in how a Superman would gently caress up world politics, how unlimited power can’t fix everything, how humanity is its own worst enemy. They’re not very interested in how awesome and fun it would be to be Superman or how a magical space-boy could totally solve every problem if only he was raised in America. It’s because Snyder remade Watchmen, not Iron Man. Batman is the same way: the alpha masculine ideal of this genius billionaire vigilante is instead painted as a violent maniac who’s motivated by trauma, in a way that feels debilitating and sad and not deep or badass. It’s no less “dark” or “grounded” or “serious” than the Nolan movies, it’s just that those portray Batman as fundamentally cool and right.
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Jun 28, 2023 02:08
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GoldStandardConure posted:I didn't see Man of Steel when it came out, as I just wasn't particularly interested in a Superman movie. Reading the comic book movie thread began to pique my interest in the movie though, and someone (I forget who) said that MoS was very much 'the idea of God is comforting, the reality of God is terrifying' and that was what made me track it down and watch it. So what'd you think
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Jun 28, 2023 02:09
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Xealot posted:Batman is the same way: the alpha masculine ideal of this genius billionaire vigilante is instead painted as a violent maniac who’s motivated by trauma, in a way that feels debilitating and sad and not deep or badass. It’s no less “dark” or “grounded” or “serious” than the Nolan movies, it’s just that those portray Batman as fundamentally cool and right. The Nolan trilogy, Batman Begins specifically, played on Batman's theatrics to put fear into his enemies. The fight scenes were primarily shot from the bad guys's POV to really sell the idea that Batman is stalking his prey. They're supposed to be scary to the bad guy, but as a viewer, they're not particularly scary. Now, the very brief shot of Batman hiding in the corner of the ceiling like an actual bat in BvS? That's legitimately disturbing.
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Jun 28, 2023 02:24
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You know what would've made me like MOS more in 2013? an epilogue. BvS is much better because it has a lot about the fallout and that is interesting. I don't need much, but just a few scenes or shots of people repairing, or something. He did it subtly in watchmen. And yes im talking about the avengers scene. I would've liked that. Just a moment showing people after all that insanity. I think going to that stupid drone scene killed it for me. But thats not even my biggest issue with the flick especially now that bvs does actually exist.
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Jun 28, 2023 02:28
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AccountSupervisor posted:I love James Gunn. I think the GOTG trilogy is the best thing Marvel has ever made. I love Slither. I love Dawn of the Dead. I had a great time with Super. Not a fan of TSS but really enjoyed Peacemaker. Comics are built on serial storytelling with a carousel of writers. Marvel film will gradually reinvent itself as its original stars age or opt out, which is already in full swing. CD posters declaring the Year of Comic Book Fatigue (for the comic book movies they don't like) for the last ten years not withstanding. Like, I get it, I'm continually impressed that they release a new Spiderman movie practically every year now and it always finds an audience. But Spiderman isn't just for me, it's also for the little kids who effing love Spiderman. Warner Bros. is mostly just trying to recover from what killed off their original serial storyline, endless meddling and sabotage by executives. MCU I'm sure has had problems, but their movies not violently alternating in tone to please the latest fan reaction has ensured continued success and established a powerful brand identity, if not particularly amazing movies most of the time. Firing Gunn was one of their biggest mistakes.
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Jun 28, 2023 02:31
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Name Change posted:Comics are built on serial storytelling with a carousel of writers. Marvel film will gradually reinvent itself as its original stars age or opt out, which is already in full swing. CD posters declaring the Year of Comic Book Fatigue (for the comic book movies they don't like) for the last ten years not withstanding. And it's that idea of having different writers telling different stories with the same characters that makes comics a really fun medium. The movies could have leaned into that, and I think WB wanted to by getting Nolan and Snyder to work on a Nolanesque take on Superman as a contrast to what Marvel was doing with Iron Man & Co. It's just that when Man of Steel and Batman v Superman didn't make stupid money, they wussed out on the plan. Snyder took some really big swings with the IP. He made Superman vulnerable, he rejected the grim and cynical Batman take by Frank Miller while dressing him in the same outfit, he built the Justice League plot around Cyborg. He made something very different than what Marvel did. It wasn't for everyone. But it spoke to me far more than any of the Marvel movies have.
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Jun 28, 2023 03:36
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My mental image of the two is that WB/DC is always runnign around frantically keeping plates spinning crying and repeating "it'll be ok it'll be ok" while Marvel is just a board meeting of guys going "the supervillain sitcom sucked, the multiverse spiderman sucked, the thor thing sucked" and nodding thoughtfully and just greenlighting the next thing
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Jun 28, 2023 03:53
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Sony learned this lesson and gets reliable returns on their dogshit Sinister Six movies.
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Jun 28, 2023 04:01
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McCloud posted:So what'd you think I really liked it! I don't have a lot more to add because everyone has already covered it in great depth in either this thread or The Snyder Dome. I did see Hans Zimmer a few years back when he toured, and hearing both the Man of Steel and Wonder Woman soundtracks performed live were amazing.
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Jun 28, 2023 04:27
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Grendels Dad posted:The Avengers action? lol no lol
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Jun 28, 2023 04:47
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2house2fly posted:My mental image of the two is that WB/DC is always runnign around frantically keeping plates spinning crying and repeating "it'll be ok it'll be ok" while Marvel is just a board meeting of guys going "the supervillain sitcom sucked, the multiverse spiderman sucked, the thor thing sucked" and nodding thoughtfully and just greenlighting the next thing The multiverse spiderman made 1.9 billion, I'm sure they are fine with this kind of sucking.
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Jun 28, 2023 07:40
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YggdrasilTM posted:The multiverse spiderman made 1.9 billion, I'm sure they are fine with this kind of sucking. Marvel themselves probably aren’t as happy as they might be because it was a Sony production so Disney only got a small cut of that, and it’s a reminder that they haven’t been able to cross the billion threshold themselves in four years so probably a little bit of salt in the wound there.
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Jun 28, 2023 12:06
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Chairman Capone posted:Marvel themselves probably aren’t as happy as they might be because it was a Sony production so Disney only got a small cut of that, and it’s a reminder that they haven’t been able to cross the billion threshold themselves in four years so probably a little bit of salt in the wound there. Wasn't it a Marvel Studios production? I thought Sony was involved only in the distribution. Edit: I see, MS were involved in 25% of the production. YggdrasilTM fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Jun 28, 2023 |
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Jun 28, 2023 13:56
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GoldStandardConure posted:I didn't see Man of Steel when it came out, as I just wasn't particularly interested in a Superman movie. Reading the comic book movie thread began to pique my interest in the movie though, and someone (I forget who) said that MoS was very much 'the idea of God is comforting, the reality of God is terrifying' and that was what made me track it down and watch it. This is also why Batfleck was 100% right, and why Lex was so close to winning. I'm even a little annoyed that in the JL2 and 3 scripts superman was supposed to be broken entirely by the anti-life equation - I don't think Darkseid should've even needed it. I was thinking the other day after one of these posts here - but if the absolute best, most morally upright person you knew woke up with superman powers the only thing saving you from utterly crippling fear is maybe the thought that they might still be friends with you.
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Jun 28, 2023 14:30
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Aipsh posted:This is also why Batfleck was 100% right, Huh? No he wasn't. Wayne was acting with an ideology of zero faith, and had no trust in Superman to do the right thing. Lex was correct about one thing, which is that "you can be all-powerful or all-good, but not both," and Superman sacrificing himself at the end means he chose to be the latter. Batman literally quotes Dick Cheney when he explains why he needs to treat Superman like a threat instead of a boon. He ends the movie by saying "I failed him!"
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Jun 28, 2023 14:42
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We'll never see it but I was slightly offended by the insinuation that Clark could be corrupted, to be honest.
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Jun 28, 2023 18:28
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Gunn’s DC will just be the same kinda thing he’s been making for years. No more no less. Probably the same exact movie. Daddy issues, pop culture music, etc.
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Jun 28, 2023 18:30
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Alexander Hamilton posted:We'll never see it but I was slightly offended by the insinuation that Clark could be corrupted, to be honest. He came back wrong when they revived him, even in Justice League he's hanging by a thread to his humanity (the thread is Lois)
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Jun 28, 2023 18:38
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