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Vincent Van Goatse posted:I mean, your logic here is kinda poor because it ignores that they're calling a "distant ancestor" of pizza and unlike the stuff you're talking about it comes from the same part of what is now Italy that pizza does. Is there any evidence for a dish like that persisting in the ~1500 years in between this mural and pizzas? One of my stubborn takeaways from learning about lots of history on a surface level is that from near every culture the world over, most food we think of as traditional is a few centuries old at best.
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Jun 27, 2023 22:42
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Crab Dad posted:Corn or potato does not make a calzone. I’ve never had a “pizza” with an alternative crust beside those gluten free ones. Also you boil as opposed to bake tamales. You steam tamales not boil them.
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Jun 27, 2023 22:42
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I guess the question is what are the essential elements of pizza? 1. Flatbread 2. Sauce 3. Cheese. edit: 4 baked in oven If it's got 1 and 3 it's cheezy bread and if it's got 1 and 2 it's breadsticks with dipping sauce. So unless the roman 'za has all three it doesn't count.
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Jun 27, 2023 22:49
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Mr. Nice! posted:You steam tamales not boil them. Still don’t bake them whatever.
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Jun 27, 2023 22:49
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Pizza has no essential definition.
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Jun 27, 2023 22:54
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sullat posted:edit: 4 baked in oven You have hurt the feelings of the Scottish people.
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Jun 27, 2023 23:13
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Hippocrass posted:What would the red things that look like either tomato or peppers be? Dormice.
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Jun 27, 2023 23:32
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The oldest dish I know of offhand is French toast, which has a Roman recipe that's essentially identical to how it's made today. Which I guess makes sense, any bread eating culture's going to have stale bread sitting around they want to do something useful with.
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Jun 27, 2023 23:35
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Koramei posted:Is there any evidence for a dish like that persisting in the ~1500 years in between this mural and pizzas? Yeah, e.g. here's one of the oldest recorded recipes having stayed mostly unchanged for ~4K years: https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/ancient-mesopotamian-tablet-cookbook "A similar stew is made to this day in Baghdad using white turnip instead of red beet."
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Jun 27, 2023 23:36
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Grand Fromage posted:The oldest dish I know of offhand is French toast, which has a Roman recipe that's essentially identical to how it's made today. Which I guess makes sense, any bread eating culture's going to have stale bread sitting around they want to do something useful with. Yeah I'd also argue that modern burek is basically the same thing as placenta.
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Jun 27, 2023 23:37
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Y'all need Wittgenstein.
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Jun 28, 2023 00:04
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If u can build the pantheon u can put cheese n poo poo on bread
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Jun 28, 2023 00:09
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Bongo Bill posted:Y'all need Wittgenstein. the world is everything that is der Käse
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Jun 28, 2023 00:13
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pre-pizza roman: it's too hot to cook, let's just go to the p'zonopolium
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Jun 28, 2023 00:26
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Koramei posted:Is there any evidence for a dish like that persisting in the ~1500 years in between this mural and pizzas? Well since the oldest known use of the word pizza is from a Latin chronicle written in the town of Gaeta (less than 100 miles from Pompeii) in 997 AD it's safe to assume there was some sort of continuity between whatever was described as a pizza then and whatever was being made in Pompeii a few centuries earlier. Seriously what's so hard about believing people in the vicinity of Vesuvius ate a dish composed of a round flatbread with toppings for two thousand or so years before it suddenly became popular? Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Jun 28, 2023 |
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Jun 28, 2023 02:09
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Hippocrass posted:What would the red things that look like either tomato or peppers be? Those are both post Colombian exchange things. No tomatoes or chili peppers in the ancient world.
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Jun 28, 2023 02:16
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Those are both post Colombian exchange things. No tomatoes or chili peppers in the ancient world. That's why they were asking what things that looked like them were familiar enough to the Romans to be included in a fresco.
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Jun 28, 2023 02:18
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Prolly why they're asking
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Jun 28, 2023 02:18
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Speaking of red foods, according to the audio commentary for Ben-Hur the set decorator had a problem thinking of a red foodstuff for one scene set in the Hur family mansion early in the film. I don't recall what they settled on eventually but the fact that he didn't immediately settle on the rare and expensive choice of A loving RED APPLE astounds me.
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Jun 28, 2023 02:22
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Apples feel American
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Jun 28, 2023 02:22
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They're in the loving Bible. A lot. Like wasn't there one observant Jew on set to point out apples were mentioned all the time in the Song of Solomon?
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Jun 28, 2023 02:25
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the red thing on the flatbread does look remarkably like tomato. time to start a conspiracy theory that tomatoes are old world
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Jun 28, 2023 02:37
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cheetah7071 posted:the red thing on the flatbread does look remarkably like tomato. time to start a conspiracy theory that tomatoes are old world lol, you believe the Americas exist. rube
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Jun 28, 2023 02:45
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tracecomplete posted:pre-pizza roman: it's too hot to cook, let's just go to the p'zonopolium
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Jun 28, 2023 02:53
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I vote persimmon
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Jun 28, 2023 02:54
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Speaking of red foods, according to the audio commentary for Ben-Hur the set decorator had a problem thinking of a red foodstuff for one scene set in the Hur family mansion early in the film. I don't recall what they settled on eventually but the fact that he didn't immediately settle on the rare and expensive choice of A loving RED APPLE astounds me. I can see why they'd stumble over that - even if it is historically accurate, the filmgoing audience is likely to think it's a lazy anachronism, simply because apples are so common.
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Jun 28, 2023 02:54
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cheetah7071 posted:the red thing on the flatbread does look remarkably like tomato. time to start a conspiracy theory that tomatoes are old world I occassionally see the "Maize was invented by Indians and by that I literally mean people in India" conspiracy theorists on twitter.
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Jun 28, 2023 03:08
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I feel like food is a very temporal aspect of culture, that while certainly many elements go back a long time, the actual food as we know and experience it shifts around a lot even within one lifetime. Going much further than that, and a lot of foods start getting pretty hard to recognize one or two centuries out. Going back like 500 years, language gets harder to understand without some work, and a lot of words can shift around (some languages shift more than others, 1000 years ago and you end up before the English language existed). In the wake of that kind of shifting, a dish with a name and what it means to people is going to be even more ephemeral. But so far as ways to get attention to archeological work, dredging up an apparent ancient version of a modern food is a better trick than claiming that whatever dead person you're digging up is (or could be) somebody famous.
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Jun 28, 2023 03:16
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Tunicate posted:I occassionally see the "Maize was invented by Indians and by that I literally mean people in India" conspiracy theorists on twitter.
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Jun 28, 2023 03:18
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That circle of bread was popular in Pompeii and sold from roadside carts like we have today They have found carbonized remains of them I would assume it was eaten in many way but probably commonly dipped in olive oil which was ubiquitous
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Jun 28, 2023 03:26
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euphronius posted:That circle of bread was popular in Pompeii and sold from roadside carts like we have today /starts hysterical crying for the next 16 hours.
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Jun 28, 2023 03:35
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cheetah7071 posted:the red thing on the flatbread does look remarkably like tomato. time to start a conspiracy theory that tomatoes are old world It was an unknown type of incredibly toxic nightshade which the Romans ate into extinction
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Jun 28, 2023 03:37
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CommonShore posted:I vote persimmon I don't think persimmons had made it that far west by the 1st century. Perhaps a plum?
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Jun 28, 2023 04:01
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Persimmons are also Americas, US east coast so they are a no too.
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Jun 28, 2023 04:51
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I think it might be meat? it looks pretty similar to the thing on the far right, which is less ambiguous. At first I thought the white specks on it were seeds, which is why tomatoes and bell peppers jump to mind, but though are just spots where it's damaged, I think
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Jun 28, 2023 04:58
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Persimmons are also Americas, US east coast so they are a no too.
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Jun 28, 2023 05:03
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could be shallots
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Jun 28, 2023 05:17
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Grand Fromage posted:The oldest dish I know of offhand is French toast, which has a Roman recipe that's essentially identical to how it's made today. Which I guess makes sense, any bread eating culture's going to have stale bread sitting around they want to do something useful with. TIL that that when English speakers talk about French toast, they mean what is known here as 'poor knights'. There's some funky etymology there, from what I gather it got the 'knight' name in languages to where it spread from medieval Germany and I'm guessing English got it from the French (duh). I wonder why some things are pretty self-explanotory in their etymology and others are not. Is it just that some named ideas with singular origin spread so fast that they get the same names or country monikers (like some STDs that were named [insert country name here] -disease depending on from where it spread) and older and slower ideas go wild in their naming?
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Jun 28, 2023 05:19
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My guess is "it could be any number of things, pickled in red vinegar" Or "the paint colors as seen aren't identical to how they started because the different pigments used faded at different rates." Or part of a floral/other design that was painted onto the plate itself. stringless fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Jun 28, 2023 |
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Jun 28, 2023 05:35
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cowboy
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Well since the oldest known use of the word pizza is from a Latin chronicle written in the town of Gaeta (less than 100 miles from Pompeii) in 997 AD it's safe to assume there was some sort of continuity between whatever was described as a pizza then and whatever was being made in Pompeii a few centuries earlier. Ooooh I spent a lot of time in Gaeta. They are very proud of that pizza nonsense because what you should be really eating is the tiella. Very popular street food since it’s fine at room temperature. Basically a hot pocket.
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Jun 28, 2023 06:11
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