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Heavy Metal posted:Although James Bond is sometimes in peril, a big chunk of the series is about him being so cool that he's barely fazed by what is happening. And his winning is generally not in question. Precisely the reason why I can't stand Bond movies. Like what are you getting out of those movies? With no suspense, or tension? The only exception to that is Casino Royale, where Craig gets beat up to hell and is also scrappy and tenacious, Goldeneye where Brosnan is fighting another 00 agent and there at least feels some pathos, and some parts of the Dalton movies because he's such a small violent weirdo in these surprisingly grungy films.
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Jun 27, 2023 13:33
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Shageletic posted:Precisely the reason why I can't stand Bond movies. Like what are you getting out of those movies? With no suspense, or tension? The nadir of suspenseless action has to be in Spectre when Bond is escaping from the base and just trudges lethargically around aimbotting Blofeld's mooks in the head.
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Jun 27, 2023 14:02
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That fight Connery had with the giant on the train. Actually there's a few cool Connery scenes where he's fighting for his life in a very real (for the time) way. He is such a piece of poo poo in these movies tho lol
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Jun 27, 2023 14:08
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Before going through every action scene of over 20 films, my general sense of things is that the idea of Bond as unfazed and confident in victory is from when he's in a vehicle. In fights though he is routinely outclassed and needs to use some trick or ploy to save himself. And part of the formula for Bond also includes putting him in a deadly trap or torture scenario where he is definitely not having a fun time.
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Jun 27, 2023 14:29
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The thing i noticed that was really different about Mission Impossible I, other than the 90sness of it all, was that there were a grand total of three gunshots in the whole film. De Palma really did commit hard to the spy thriller aspect of it. The 4+ do sometimes go there, but they lean a lot more on crazy action to get between the thriller scenes.
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Jun 27, 2023 15:11
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Payndz posted:
The most recent movie had a very technically competent stairway shootout with Daniel Craig just mowing through faceless enemies. The action choreography, the camera work, the lighting was all great. But it fell completely flat. The most insane part is this was in the movie where he died! So there absolutely could have been some tension there, it just didn't exist. Wound him at least with the 5 grenades that go off near him. When I was watching it I was just wishing it would hurry up and end. Probably how a lot of people feel about action movies I love and they don't
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Jun 27, 2023 15:25
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I just don't think you can really judge Bond as an action series in the traditional sense, it's never really been about that. It's about watching Bond wear cool clothes in exotic locations, spy stuff like gadgets and espionage and femme fatales, and then big over the top stunts. Sure, he occasionally has to fist fight a guy or shoot some people but that's not what you're there for.
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Jun 27, 2023 15:29
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trevorreznik posted:When I was watching it I was just wishing it would hurry up and end. Probably how a lot of people feel about action movies I love and they don't
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Jun 27, 2023 15:55
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Payndz posted:My personal belief is that around seven minutes is the longest an action sequence should last without some sort of break and/or change of pace, based on the truck chase from Raiders, which between Indy stealing the horse and Goebler splatting the watermelon is 7 minutes and 11 seconds. Anything beyond that risks overkill, which gets more boring the longer it goes on. That's true, but when I went back to watch the Bond clip it was only 2 and a half minutes. At the time it felt like I was watching the Gracie Shamrock superfight all over again and it was never going to end. The Connery/Robert Shaw fight on the train is roughly the same length but is so much better due to a huge number of reasons. Did the post up thread mean Shaw was a giant? Batista and Craig fight on a train, Jaws might fight Moore on one, but who else would even qualify?
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Jun 27, 2023 16:03
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Grant is no giant, at least relative to Bond. But he is towering over Bond before Bond gets him with the gadget trick so it might be natural to remember a height advantage that doesn't exist.
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Jun 27, 2023 16:24
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Lobok posted:Grant is no giant, at least relative to Bond. But he is towering over Bond before Bond gets him with the gadget trick so it might be natural to remember a height advantage that doesn't exist. You also have that intro scene for Shaw where he's standing next to Klebb(the great scene where she cracks him with the brass knuckles) and of course she's really short so he looks huge by comparison.
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Jun 27, 2023 16:26
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Lobok posted:Grant is no giant, at least relative to Bond. But he is towering over Bond before Bond gets him with the gadget trick so it might be natural to remember a height advantage that doesn't exist. I was thinking that Shaw didn't even look big next to noted small guy Dreyfuss in Jaws, and checked trivia on From Russia With Love "Due to Shaw being a few inches shorter than Sean Connery, in scenes where the pair would be stood side by side, Shaw would stand on a small box, giving the impression that Red Grant was a dominating presence." ha Edit: As for Bond in general, as well as 'action' in general - it's a big genre. It doesn't mean just fisticuffs, or just gunplay, but encompasses car chases, and I'd say it includes heists like the famous Mission Impossible one. Heck, le Circle Rouge was my first thought for an action scene over 7 minutes editx2: gently caress, I meant Rififi trevorreznik fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Jun 27, 2023 |
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Jun 27, 2023 16:27
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Basebf555 posted:I just don't think you can really judge Bond as an action series in the traditional sense, it's never really been about that. It's about watching Bond wear cool clothes in exotic locations, spy stuff like gadgets and espionage and femme fatales, and then big over the top stunts. Sure, he occasionally has to fist fight a guy or shoot some people but that's not what you're there for. But I literally just made a post about why I'm not there for that, and in fact there's other stuff going on with a few Bond movies that eschew that. There's some great action in these movies.
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Jun 27, 2023 16:29
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trevorreznik posted:That's true, but when I went back to watch the Bond clip it was only 2 and a half minutes. At the time it felt like I was watching the Gracie Shamrock superfight all over again and it was never going to end. I was talking about Shaw. Just a bad memory. I also remember the Jaws fight being fun too. Here's another good one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy2lbEyYqcs E: I think I have to amend my take of not standing Bond movies. There's plenty of good parts in them just spread out as hell Shageletic fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Jun 27, 2023 |
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Jun 27, 2023 16:35
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I can't remember which of the Craig Bond movies it was, but for me the best fight scene was the hotel room/balcony fight. Came out of nowhere, was quick, brutal and the finish really sells Bond as a cold killer assessing his surroundings while his opponent bleeds out in seconds.
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Jun 27, 2023 18:12
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Dog_Meat posted:really sells Bond as a cold killer assessing his surroundings while his opponent bleeds out in seconds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ono-pu9ON6I
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Jun 27, 2023 18:45
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Remulak posted:I authentically love this scene: Yea that might be my favorite Bond scene of all time, maybe with the exception of some of the train stuff in From Russia With Love.
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Jun 27, 2023 18:47
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Dog_Meat posted:I can't remember which of the Craig Bond movies it was, but for me the best fight scene was the hotel room/balcony fight. Came out of nowhere, was quick, brutal and the finish really sells Bond as a cold killer assessing his surroundings while his opponent bleeds out in seconds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4XLplTkHvs interesting choice. I hadn't remembered it at all, but Bond holding him in place while he dies and looking at his surroundings instead of his foe is indeed a great visual explanation of who Bond is. That guy is nothing to him once dealt with.
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Jun 27, 2023 19:43
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Re: Extraction 2 I'm really torn on this because sometimes it works really well, and sometimes it doesn't. That prison yard fight is great stuff, the oner stuff sometimes works and sometimes doesn't but for that scene it was a slam dunk. On the other hand you get it following people down corridors and swinging around in tight spaces and it just destroys the coherence of some of the 1v1 action. God, the digital helicopters/digital destruction stinks. It goes full Unreal Cutscene mode at one point, it's just embarrassing. The digital fakery of the oner's stitching was all over the place. I was very keen on the concept and was trying to be in the moment and not deliberately look for seams, but sometimes the transitions were so unnatural and it jumped right out at me. The entire second sequence was, I felt, far better than the first. Yes there was more clearly digital fake poo poo, but being able to just cut the camera made everything much more cohesive. Also what is the sudden obsession with two guys standing 6 feet from each other and unloading pistols into each other's ballistic armor? It's spreading from John Wick to other flicks like cancer. It wasn't a bad movie and I enjoyed it, but it's a great example of some of the things they're doing wrong in action movies right now.
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Jun 27, 2023 23:04
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I've been wanting to try my hand at a video essay for some time and I thought Extraction (as contrasted with John Wick) would be a cool place to start. Not that Extraction is bad, but it would be examining what separates the good from the great. I have a few theories.
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Jun 27, 2023 23:10
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Snowman_McK posted:I've been wanting to try my hand at a video essay for some time and I thought Extraction (as contrasted with John Wick) would be a cool place to start. Not that Extraction is bad, but it would be examining what separates the good from the great. I have a few theories. Want to bounce 'em around this thread? Pre-gaming to the 20 or so people on here probably won't hurt your final product, and I'm personally not gonna judge anyone for having theories I disagree with (what a boring world that would be!!!)
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Jun 27, 2023 23:18
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:
I did like the second sequence a lot better and it was a solid action showcase for the guy that played Yaz. Out of the three leads he was easily the best when it came to the movements and weapon handling.
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Jun 27, 2023 23:19
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The main problem I had with the one shot in E2 was out of the prison when it turned into a vehicle chase and the camera movements became unsettling. Like not full-on nauseating but the motion was not enjoyable at all. Was much happier once they got on the train and it calmed down.
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Jun 27, 2023 23:29
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Want to bounce 'em around this thread? Pre-gaming to the 20 or so people on here probably won't hurt your final product, and I'm personally not gonna judge anyone for having theories I disagree with (what a boring world that would be!!!) sure. The core of my theory is that, while there's a ton of technical skill in the actors, the stunt performers and the behind the scenes team, Extraction stops telling its story in its action beats. I'll specify that this is a criticism of the action beats, not the scene as a whole. In the rest of the long takes, we get Hemsworth moving around his envrionment, observing, reacting, being a character within those onners, and that's good. The action itself, though, the actual action stanzas where he punches and shoots people, don't contain any character. They've put enough work in that the actions are fluid, but they're just a little too slick, a little too perfect, and it ends up feeling like a dance. A beautiful, well performed dance, but a dance, not a fight. Part of it is the lack of imperfections in the physical executions of the moves (which is also a product of Hemsworth himself being a lot younger and more athletic than Keanu Reeves is) but Stahelski's habit of using takes where Reeves is tired and doesn't quite get it perfect is already well documented. The difference I'd focus on is the rythmn of the fight scenes. It's too quick, too slickly performed to allow those moments where you see the character decide what to do. For instance, when a random goon falls down the stairs in John Wick 2. Wick puts his foot on the guy and finishes him off, but its filmed so that you see Wick decide to do it, you see him make an awkward half step to be in the right place before he does it. By contrast, the bit where Rake shoots four guys with a pistol in the prison yard he turns and nails each of the guys without a pause. It's cool as hell, but it's too perfect for the human aspect. It's not always a problem. The movie frequently nails it. Just moments earlier in the same scene, Rake wildly spraying and catching a bunch of guys in the knees is a perfect example of what I'd prefer. It's a clearly an improvised solution that the character is applying in a situation he doesn't really have control of, for instance. It's going to be hard to make it clear that Extraction is good, but this is why it's good, while Wick was an instant classic. Anyway, that's the core of it. I'd also want to make a larger point that the particular rythmn of their fights is how different film action styles are distinguished, how traditional kung fu's rythmn is different from Jackie Chan's, who's different again from Tony Jaa and Donnie Yen.
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Jun 28, 2023 00:06
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I do think the tendency of action movies to try to make big long one-take scenes has impacted them negatively. I know cutting quickly to hide choreography isn't good, but frankly, so is never cutting in situations where the flow of scenes would work better with cuts.
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Jun 28, 2023 03:19
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Shageletic posted:Precisely the reason why I can't stand Bond movies. Like what are you getting out of those movies? With no suspense, or tension? What I'm saying there, for me fear of your protagonist dying or losing is not the only way to keep a movie engaging and entertaining. And for variety, it can be fun to have a really unstoppable hero, and the fun can be in seeing how things play out. And the artistry of the editing and the writing, how supporting characters come into play, the pulpy plots, and the other bits of appeal of Bond people have mentioned. I love say Lupin the Third, incredible fun anime series that has some Bond influence. This gang of thieves star in dozens of movies, over 200 TV anime episodes etc. I do not think Lupin is going to die or not come out on top. But they find ways to keep it fresh and fun, that's the beauty of it. Take for another genre, Columbo, we have a lively Columbo thread on SA. People enjoy the formula, they like the character, you know how each ep will end, but they find ways to bring artistry and entertainment to that none the less. Also, there's the ol' willing suspension of disbelief. It's not just Bond, 99.9% of your action heroes are going to make it to the finish line with things going well for them. I don't necessarily need the extra illusion that it's clearly tough for the hero, it's just a different flavor for the hero to have a stiff upper lip and not be fazed by much. Plus Bond generally has a little comedy, and that aspect can add to that humor. Speaking of which, big Judge Dredd fan, my fav comic. Well, he's sometimes in a hero role (such as it is) depending on the story.
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Jun 28, 2023 03:43
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Panzeh posted:I do think the tendency of action movies to try to make big long one-take scenes has impacted them negatively. I know cutting quickly to hide choreography isn't good, but frankly, so is never cutting in situations where the flow of scenes would work better with cuts. I think that's where a lot of Hong Kong stuff separates itself. With those classic Jackie/Sammo films and that whole era in general, they really knew how to mix longer takes with smart cuts that emphasize impact and focus the audience on the right things to maintain a great flow to the fight.
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Jun 28, 2023 03:56
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Basebf555 posted:I think that's where a lot of Hong Kong stuff separates itself. With those classic Jackie/Sammo films and that whole era in general, they really knew how to mix longer takes with smart cuts that emphasize impact and focus the audience on the right things to maintain a great flow to the fight. The Raid films, as well. Those cut quite alot, but it's always with purpose. You may not even realise how often they cut while watching, since a good cut, one that's done well and for a good reason, is basically invisible.
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Jun 28, 2023 12:33
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Catching up: On a scale of seriousness it’s probably F&F least, then bond, then MI. Though most recent Bond was super serious. Fast wins on diversity though. The others really don’t come close there. And honestly, besides fast x which is kind of bad, the fast films are good about giving the cast their own great scenes. In fast 9 for example, it was not Vin driving the rocket car or the fun comedy scenes. He gets his hero moments of course, but usually everyone gets to shine.
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Jun 28, 2023 16:01
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Snowman_McK posted:
I do find stuff like this super interesting and totally agree. I think Donnie Yen is not the best actor but holy poo poo he can convey so much emotion through his fights. Wayyy more so than when he is just talking. The final fight in Raging Fire is fantastic just because of how angry his fighting style becomes
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Jun 28, 2023 22:28
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Raging Fire has some really great action! It's also some of the worst copaganda I've ever seen in my life. Even the most MAGA, blue line-rear end bootlicker would watch this film and go "woah, hey, tone down the police brutality". Awful awful politics.
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Jun 29, 2023 02:23
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Snowman_McK posted:
This really nails the problem with a lot of fight scenes, especially in mainstream movies. One of the reasons the old Indiana Jones movies were so good was because you saw a guy fighting for his life and Ford's expressions (and the editing) let you feel when he was out of his depth, spotted something to use, it failed, panic then gets lucky and is more surprised than anyone that it worked. Then the later films were "hey, watch this perfect cartoon character go through a choreographed dance" and it was boring. I've not really paid attention to the Marvel films (I kinda watched them all while doing something else), but there was a big difference between comic characters swinging on eachother in a boring, overwhelming slugfest in a CGI world and that fight in Winter Soldier where you saw Captain America being surprised by the knife flip, barely keeping up with the attacks and that ridiculously heavy flying knee into the car door (that missed) that made it actual feel like a fight. In fact, the only Marvel series I enjoyed was the Punisher, and that had a grounded brutality to the fights (ignoring the main character taking inhuman amounts of damage). There was a fight in a gym where he gets smashed and falls back, but as he falls he sees an opportunity to hit someone else on the way down. Little things like that make it more organic than "trained ninja folds up each opponent in succession" There's nothing wrong with using a fancy set of moves on screen, but it's a skill to make them look like they're being applied in a live situation where the opponent isn't complying
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Jun 29, 2023 11:25
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Did you like Daredevil? S1 was practically all of that.
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Jun 29, 2023 11:34
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Everyone thinks that Daredevil's famed hallway fight is amazing because its a oner. And sure! that's true. But its also fantastic because you can physically see Daredevil gradually tire, punch by punch.
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Jun 29, 2023 12:07
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Yeah it gets pretty funny, at some points he's throwing himself at goons bc he's just got nothing left https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B66feInucFY The shame about Daredevil is that it never gets better than this
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Jun 29, 2023 12:09
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The Netflix Daredevil and Punisher series were awesome
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Jun 29, 2023 12:11
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Shageletic posted:Did you like Daredevil? S1 was practically all of that. I liked it and found it refreshing, but when the Punisher got involved it kind of made DareDevil's style look overly flashy and a bit silly. But at the same time, it acknowledged that someone doing those moves would get knackered pretty quickly, so that was a plus. I thought the stairwell/hallway fight was impressive as it was so different for a TV show and really ambitious, but the Punisher prison fight did more for me. Not to mention the bathroom fight which was a perfect balance of direct brutality, adapting to the surroundings (pushing the girl out of the way, wrapping his belt around his wrist after learning from being stabbed before), switching targets as they become available and using the space around him to avoid being surrounded. All these little things that elevate it from "ninja dance battle". In fact, someone mentioned before about a film scene with someone's shooting being too perfect, but Punisher had an example "flawless multiple gun kills" done right. The alleyway scene where you see the 6 man group leader talking but Frank is already sizing up the targets and planning his move instead of engaging in the talk. When it's go time you see him execute his plan while moving his body and focusing on each target quickly but effectively. There was a similar (if more Hollywood) scene in Rambo (4th movie) on the boat where you see him sizing up the targets while trying to talk his way out and then unleashing a barrage of pre-planned pistol shots. It doesn't feel miraculous, it feels like "holy gently caress, this guy is a highly trained monster"
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Jun 29, 2023 13:23
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Dog_Meat posted:"holy gently caress, this guy is a highly trained monster" The running theme of this page
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Jun 29, 2023 13:53
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If you merge the dance like posed fighting in Shaw Brothers stuff with gunkata from equilibrium you get modern gun action. It's impressive but empty
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Jun 29, 2023 14:38
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trevorreznik posted:If you merge the dance like posed fighting in Shaw Brothers stuff with gunkata from equilibrium you get modern gun action. It's impressive but empty Not really because that sounds sick as hell
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Jun 29, 2023 17:32
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