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That seems like it doesn't really resolve anything, unless there's some precedent that defines "substantial cost".
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Jun 29, 2023 15:38
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haveblue posted:I guess that means the admitter is allowed to think about race but no one is allowed to create a written policy codifying guidelines for consideration of race Well, you could codify guidelines on the consideration of race. It's just that the guideline would have to be "you may not consider race, neither positively nor negatively, when evaluating a candidate for the position"
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Jun 29, 2023 15:40
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In private institutions, no less. Not even a private entity has the right to try to directly address issues of racial bias...?
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Jun 29, 2023 15:41
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surprising nobody they’ve ruled against race based admissions - opinion does include some language that still allows consideration of race, so I’m not sure where this leaves colleges. I work in this space and the big fear is that colleges won’t even be allowed to track race and ethnicity, and this is clearly short of that.
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Jun 29, 2023 15:41
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https://twitter.com/mjs_DC/status/1674423966830850049?s=20 come the gently caress on
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Jun 29, 2023 15:43
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FlamingLiberal posted:This is the most disturbing part of this ruling IMO The proper response* to rulings like this would be for states and universities to collectively tell the SCOTUS to eat poo poo and die, then proceed to ignore the ruling, but lmao at the idea of any politicians, especially Democrats, having that kind of backbone. * Because Congress can't/won't act to remedy this even if the Dems retake the House while keeping the WH/Senate, just as they never did anything about the Shelby County ruling and the SCOTUS knew they wouldn't/couldn't do so. mdemone posted:https://twitter.com/mjs_DC/status/1674423966830850049?s=20 Lmao. Not even trying to hide what they're doing. Please look forward to the upcoming ruling that religious institutions/companies/schools/etc are also allowed to discriminate based on race. Because if there isn't a lawsuit over it right now there's going to be one as soon as ALEC can put it together, likely in their favorite little Texas puppet court.
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Jun 29, 2023 15:47
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Jackson's dissent is really good but we know how far really good dissents get us.
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Jun 29, 2023 15:49
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So basically in Goff they said "You, Mr. Company, need to show how it's really critical for Mr. Religious be onsite on Sundays. Normal scheduling doesn't cut it, if he can be replaced then he should. However, if he's the only guy who can do X and you need him onsite that day then that's ok."
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Jun 29, 2023 15:50
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haveblue posted:I guess that means the admitter is allowed to think about race but no one is allowed to create a written policy codifying guidelines for consideration of race Here is the exact phrasing in the decision: 
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Jun 29, 2023 15:52
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Don’t know why they spent any words on the “these programs were supposed to be time limited” bit given they clearly thought no AA program was legal.
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Jun 29, 2023 15:54
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I haven’t looked since the app madness but the Reddit front page is probably a goddam parade.
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Jun 29, 2023 15:56
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smackfu posted:Don’t know why they spent any words on the “these programs were supposed to be time limited” bit given they clearly thought no AA program was legal. Well it’s okay as long as they’re promising to fight in defense of the racist system that is also making it harder for them to get educated. AA is okay for military academies, the court made sure to make that clear
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Jun 29, 2023 16:01
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https://twitter.com/quantian1/status/1674426191162515463 Not sure how sound this take is but I suspect schools are going to try a way around this in some fashion or other.
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Jun 29, 2023 16:02
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That supports what I was getting at earlier- in practical terms, race will still be a factor in admissions, but there will be no way to document or verify that
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Jun 29, 2023 16:06
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I imagine you could support admission based on a lot of other proxies like income, "cultural diversity", or so on. Things that don't have constitutional or statutory prohibitions against discrimination.
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Jun 29, 2023 16:06
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SimonChris posted:Here is the exact phrasing in the decision: Just fyi, that’s the syllabus, which is not part of the decision. It often mirrors the language from the decision, but it is not itself part.
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Jun 29, 2023 16:08
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Nitrousoxide posted:I imagine you could support admission based on a lot of other proxies like income, "cultural diversity", or so on. Things that don't have constitutional or statutory prohibitions against discrimination. Factoring in income levels and residential location of students would do pretty much the same thing factoring in race or lived experiences does now.
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Jun 29, 2023 16:20
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Factoring in income levels and residential location of students would do pretty much the same thing factoring in race or lived experiences does now. its a lot easier for rich families to move their kids legal address to a "poor" area and claim they are independent with 0 income than it is to change their skin color
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Jun 29, 2023 16:26
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Yeah, my quick thoughts here are that (1) the decision actually still leaves a surprising amount of room for race-based admissions given its overall argument, (2) schools can pretty easily find proxies for race, and some of those (like location and class) may do a better job of helping disadvantaged people than race alone does, and (3) the opinion is totally correct to point out the nonsense in current diversity regimes where e.g. all Asians are in the same category and everyone from the Middle East and northern Africa is just generically white.
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Jun 29, 2023 16:31
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SimonChris posted:Here is the exact phrasing in the decision: That’s actually the syllabus.
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Jun 29, 2023 16:32
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Tatsuta Age posted:its a lot easier for rich families to move their kids legal address to a "poor" area and claim they are independent with 0 income than it is to change their skin color To verify the claims of any silver spoon kid who claims to have grown up poor they will be required to eat an entire can of SPAM in front of the person interviewing them.
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Jun 29, 2023 16:46
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the open question right now is how this changes the ability of schools to award financial aid based on race and ethnicity
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Jun 29, 2023 16:49
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Nitrousoxide posted:I imagine you could support admission based on a lot of other proxies like income, "cultural diversity", or so on. Things that don't have constitutional or statutory prohibitions against discrimination. Which is likely to be challenged next term when SCOTUS takes up Coalition for TJ v. Fairfax County School Board. That is an unusual case because it's a public high school, it has unusual demographics (2/3 Asian), it is largely upper-middle-class white kids who are being given the advantage, and it is very blatant what the school is trying to do. Like the anti-affirmative action people couldn't have found a better case if they tried. My hope is that whatever ruling comes down will be narrow in scope (i.e. just affecting K-12) but with this court who knows.
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Jun 29, 2023 16:54
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they won’t get rid of using income to make admissions decisions because need based admission is the backbone of all private universities in this country and is how they keep poor people out
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Jun 29, 2023 16:56
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Interesting thread related to the above https://twitter.com/AshaRangappa_/status/1674437450851049472
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Jun 29, 2023 16:59
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Youth Decay posted:Interesting thread related to the above this is the opinion from the profession right now - although again the financial aid question is very important
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Jun 29, 2023 17:03
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I will also add that the largest affirmative action program happening right now is test optional admissions which has solely helped rich white students
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Jun 29, 2023 17:05
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Upgrade posted:the open question right now is how this changes the ability of schools to award financial aid based on race and ethnicity A lot of race/ethnicity based aid doesn't come directly from the institutions - it comes from endowments and foundations and the school administers those funds but does not set the parameters for their dispersal.
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Jun 29, 2023 17:06
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Evil Fluffy posted:To verify the claims of any silver spoon kid who claims to have grown up poor they will be required to eat an entire can of SPAM in front of the person interviewing them. So like, what actually is the deal with SPAM? SPAM is bad. It is low quality meat that tastes terrible in comparison even to inexpensive fresh meat (I know of what I speak, i grew up eating plenty of USDA select and never had prime anything outside of a restaurant until I was an adult). But some people claim to love it and is widely consumed by people who can definitely afford something better. Does it grow on you?
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Jun 29, 2023 17:06
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Upgrade posted:I will also add that the largest affirmative action program happening right now is test optional admissions which has solely helped rich white students Questionnaires, essays, interviews and related admissions bullshit were added in the first place to try and keep Jews out of the Ivy Leagues 
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Jun 29, 2023 17:07
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Fighting Trousers posted:A lot of race/ethnicity based aid doesn't come directly from the institutions - it comes from endowments and foundations and the school administers those funds but does not set the parameters for their dispersal. At private universities this isn’t the case - schools will differentially discount to shape a class for diversity. Also very little financial aid is tied to an endowment in the way you imagine - most financial aid isn’t real money, it’s agreeing to charge less.
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Jun 29, 2023 17:10
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Youth Decay posted:Interesting thread related to the above https://twitter.com/AshaRangappa_/status/1674439164517834752 I had that initial reaction also, but it occurred to me that Harvard surely has a surfeit of applicants from every imaginable ethnic classification who know how to tune a statement to hit tacitly implied requirements, which would place the admissions department in the uncomfortable position of critically assessing Asian-American versus Nigerian-American claims to formative life experience regarding diversity. Do schools really want to pitch their tents on that hill?
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Jun 29, 2023 17:15
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Ogmius815 posted:So like, what actually is the deal with SPAM? SPAM is bad. It is low quality meat that tastes terrible in comparison even to inexpensive fresh meat (I know of what I speak, i grew up eating plenty of USDA select and never had prime anything outside of a restaurant until I was an adult). But some people claim to love it and is widely consumed by people who can definitely afford something better. Does it grow on you? I guess. Some people just like weird/bad things but in general SPAM is just awful. There's even generic SPAM alternatives like Treat. Which smells even worse but makes for really good catfish bait due to how strong and pungent the smell is.
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Jun 29, 2023 17:22
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ronya posted:https://twitter.com/AshaRangappa_/status/1674439164517834752 how do you think schools are evaluating these questions already?
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Jun 29, 2023 17:24
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Ogmius815 posted:So like, what actually is the deal with SPAM? SPAM is bad. It is low quality meat that tastes terrible in comparison even to inexpensive fresh meat (I know of what I speak, i grew up eating plenty of USDA select and never had prime anything outside of a restaurant until I was an adult). But some people claim to love it and is widely consumed by people who can definitely afford something better. Does it grow on you? It has a much longer shelf life than fresh meat.
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Jun 29, 2023 17:27
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in some cultures SPAM is more regularly consumed so people like it, yes. It’s very salty pork.
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Jun 29, 2023 17:28
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Spam is basically shelf stable hotdog meat. Its fine but I wouldn't want to eat it every day or anything
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Jun 29, 2023 17:29
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Upgrade posted:how do you think schools are evaluating these questions already? If the decision's description of the Harvard process is anything to go by, they weight by ethnic identification after the initial pass. But the decision's mandate to weigh individual experiences only would rule this out.
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Jun 29, 2023 17:30
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tk posted:It has a much longer shelf life than fresh meat. it also has a very specific cultural niche, being popular in many places where the US military was heavily present during and after WWII (Hawaii, Guam, Okinawa, South Korea, the Philippines)
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Jun 29, 2023 17:33
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mdemone posted:In private institutions, no less. Not even a private entity has the right to try to directly address issues of racial bias...? Is it based on private colleges receiving federal funds? Or Title VI? I’ve only read the headlines, not the opinion, so wondering if anyone knows how they’re applying this to private actors.
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Jun 29, 2023 17:43
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