[Ukraine] EU: Nice minister, shame if something were to happen...

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Ukraine] EU: Nice minister, shame if something were to happen...

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Futanari Damacy: Oct 30, 2021; by sebmojo

I thought it was the Caspian Sea from which Russia was launching missiles with impunity (sure to run out any day now)

# ? Jul 2, 2023 19:03

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# ? May 26, 2024 06:15

SplitSoul: Dec 31, 2000

Any takes on what the TBA Big Event of the counteroffensive is going to be?

# ? Jul 2, 2023 19:05

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

The US press & its satellite quislings will drop Ukraine when it's 100% unwinnable (unless they hate the current president at that moment, ala Afghanistan), but everyone else will probably be howling about how NATO lost to Russia, their 'defeated' adversary, not even the superpower they want to pivot towards!

# ? Jul 2, 2023 19:06

Nonsense: Jan 26, 2007

Russia is probably just going to missile strike Kyiv, pretty much all they're capable of doing.

# ? Jul 2, 2023 19:06

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

SplitSoul posted:

Any takes on what the TBA Big Event of the counteroffensive is going to be?

Zelensky is going to film himself reviewing the grimace shake

# ? Jul 2, 2023 19:06

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

Ardennes posted:

I think Europe will silently continue to lose interest but the US can�t just wander away from this one really. This one actually mattered.

lmao no it doesnt. None of them have ever mattered. Every war the US has been involved in since the Civil War has been a war of choice to expand colonial holdings or limit rival power. The US could have walked away from any of them whenever it got too annoying, and did for many. The US propaganda machine will fill in whatever cognitive dissonance might crop up from changing their mind, and its not like the people are *really* invested beyond run of the mill racism and bloodlust. Just fire up a new conflict somewhere else and people will move on. Do you think anyone seriously gives a poo poo about Afghanistan anymore except as a rhetorical cudgel, indistinguishable from all the other rhetorical cudgels they also don't actually care about?

# ? Jul 2, 2023 19:10

yellowcar: Feb 14, 2010

the democrats and all the other neocons have this war obsessively personal

they're not gonna back down anytime soon

# ? Jul 2, 2023 19:15

Jel Shaker: Apr 19, 2003

vietnam was a draw

# ? Jul 2, 2023 19:20

Skaffen-Amtiskaw: Jun 24, 2023

yellowcar posted:

the democrats and all the other neocons have this war obsessively personal

they're not gonna back down anytime soon

Do you think if Trump gets in next year that may change?

I wonder, and have for a while, just how long people will accept this state of affairs. Last autumn when the AFU was making stellar land gains and took out the rail span of the Crimean bridge, it seemed like there was no chance of a lull in support and a long haul affair was being accepted. Now? Not so sure. The US is really the backbone here, and if it ups and leaves, I don't see the Europeans being able to keep things going for much longer.

# ? Jul 2, 2023 19:21

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

ТАСС posted:

Polish MP Yevgeny Chikvin was elected to the post of president of the Interparliamentary Assembly of Orthodoxy instead of State Duma deputy Sergei Gavrilov. At the same time, delegations from Russia, Belarus and Syria were not allowed to attend the XXX session of the MAP General Assembly in Greece due to pressure from Ukraine and the United States. This was reported to us by a source in the assembly.

_{(from t.me/tass_agency/199183, via tgsa)}

# ? Jul 2, 2023 19:32

OctaMurk: Jun 21, 2013

trump started arming ukraine, but also he up and left syria, but then again also he assassinated soleimani

so who can say

# ? Jul 2, 2023 19:33

BrotherJayne: Nov 28, 2019

January 6 Survivor posted:

Sorry for assuming the worst for no reason, I had just woken up

edit : really want to stress I'm sorry for assuming the worst

Given the state of discourse in most places out side this thread, your caution is well reasoned even if incorrect this once

# ? Jul 2, 2023 19:37

yellowcar: Feb 14, 2010

Skaffen-Amtiskaw posted:

Do you think if Trump gets in next year that may change?

I wonder, and have for a while, just how long people will accept this state of affairs. Last autumn when the AFU was making stellar land gains and took out the rail span of the Crimean bridge, it seemed like there was no chance of a lull in support and a long haul affair was being accepted. Now? Not so sure. The US is really the backbone here, and if it ups and leaves, I don't see the Europeans being able to keep things going for much longer.

who knows

a hypothetical second trump admin may lose interest and scale back operations and re-focus on china instead or it could continue whatever policies that last admin has set up hard to say

what is undeniable is as long as you have people like nuland and applebaum who have made it a personal holy crusade to regime change putin and carve up russia, there's not gonna be any backing down. they're in it to win it.

# ? Jul 2, 2023 19:47

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

Ardennes posted:

I think Europe will silently continue to lose interest but the US can�t just wander away from this one really. This one actually mattered.

the problem here is that europe is already running out of weapons to send and the us will follow suit eventually, so even if they would rather keep the war going they won't be able to

# ? Jul 2, 2023 19:50

sum: Nov 15, 2010

Ardennes posted:

The weapons will still keep on coming regardless and the only thing that would stop would be them not physically making it there. Remember, the entire goal is to try drag the Russia down so weapons would still flow over the border.

That's the goal of the national security state and the neocons. The ruling class at-large were told that Ukraine can actually win, which was the justification for underwriting the war in the first place. If it becomes obvious that Ukraine can't win, and moreover things will get much worse for Ukraine the longer the war goes on, I think elite opinion on the war would fracture.

# ? Jul 2, 2023 20:02

Deadly Ham Sandwich: Aug 19, 2009; Smellrose

I really have trouble understanding liberals. I need to sit down and read Harry Potter one day.

# ? Jul 2, 2023 20:04

OhFunny: Jun 26, 2013; EXTREMELY PISSED AT THE DNC

Ukraine says Russian troops advancing in ‘fierce fighting’

quote:

Russian troops are advancing in four areas of the front line in eastern Ukraine amid “fierce fighting”, Ukraine’s Deputy Defence Minister Hanna Maliar has said.

“Fierce fighting is going on everywhere,” Maliar wrote on social media, adding: “The situation is quite complicated”.

“The enemy is advancing in Avdiivka, Mariinka, Lyman sectors. The enemy is also moving forward in the Svatove sector,” she said.

Maliar said Ukrainian troops were advancing with “partial success” on the southern flank of Bakhmut, as well as near Berdyansk and Melitopol in southern Ukraine.

The Russian blog-o-sphere has been saying the fighting is deadlocked in Avdiivka and Marynka, so this is unexpected news to hear from such a high-ranking Ukrainian official.

# ? Jul 2, 2023 20:09

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

Deadly Ham Sandwich posted:

I really have trouble understanding liberals. I need to sit down and read Harry Potter one day.

Obedience is intelligence. That's it.

# ? Jul 2, 2023 20:11

Nonsense: Jan 26, 2007

Putin's offensive is flailing!

# ? Jul 2, 2023 20:12

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

Nonsense posted:

Putin's offensive is flailing!

Its going to culminate soon, ceding the initiative to Ukraine. Then the counteroffensive can begin!

# ? Jul 2, 2023 20:34

1stGear: Jan 16, 2010; Here's to the new us.

OhFunny posted:

Ukraine says Russian troops advancing in ‘fierce fighting’

The Russian blog-o-sphere has been saying the fighting is deadlocked in Avdiivka and Marynka, so this is unexpected news to hear from such a high-ranking Ukrainian official.

Claiming the Ukrainians are anywhere near Berdyansk or Melitopol is, uh, optimistic to say the least.

Going by ISW, the Russians are pushing around Siversk and towards Lyman. I wonder if this is a genuine offensive effort or just a distraction to try and draw off Ukrainian reserves.

# ? Jul 2, 2023 20:35

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

OhFunny posted:

Ukraine says Russian troops advancing in �fierce fighting�

The Russian blog-o-sphere has been saying the fighting is deadlocked in Avdiivka and Marynka, so this is unexpected news to hear from such a high-ranking Ukrainian official.

lol loving oops

Wrt US ruling class, my understanding is that there are China Hawks and Russia Hawks, and here, Chrystia Freeland and basically anyone else. The Russia Hawks promised taking down Russia would make containing China easier, but now have a ticking clock to make that happen. The China Hawks are seeing military equipment go up in smoke and want to pivot immediately, Ukraine be damned.

# ? Jul 2, 2023 20:37

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

Frosted Flake posted:

lol loving oops

Wrt US ruling class, my understanding is that there are China Hawks and Russia Hawks, and here, Chrystia Freeland and basically anyone else. The Russia Hawks promised taking down Russia would make containing China easier, but now have a ticking clock to make that happen. The China Hawks are seeing military equipment go up in smoke and want to pivot immediately, Ukraine be damned.

I imagine there's also a generational divide; pre-1991 ghouls that wanted a payoff to the Cold War (i.e going hot and destroying Russia), and post-1991 freaks that have spent the better part of 2 decades pivoting towards Asia and the Middle-East.

# ? Jul 2, 2023 20:53

MinutePirateBug: Mar 4, 2013

Ardennes posted:

I think Europe will silently continue to lose interest but the US can�t just wander away from this one really. This one actually mattered.

Is it silent? The AfD is way up in polls, all of these fascist parties throughout Europe seem to be doing pretty well given they are the only people with some connection to political power who are going oh this war isn't in our interest. Is this an incorrect perception?

# ? Jul 2, 2023 20:58

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

explaining to family at a holiday bbq that nato is in fact not good

this is getting dicey

# ? Jul 2, 2023 20:59

yellowcar: Feb 14, 2010

just eat burger man

# ? Jul 2, 2023 21:01

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

mawarannahr posted:

the current thread title prefix "[URW]" has accessibility and search problems. nobody knows what "URW" means outside of context, and you're unlikely to type CTRL+F and enter "urw" to find this thread.

I think including UKR is good cause people will type that when they start to look for Ukraine. so [UKR-RUS] or [UKR War] or even [Ukraine] is a good prefix.

when was the last time we had a thread title so long that [Ukraine/Russia] prevented it from fitting

is even the current one long enough for that not to work

# ? Jul 2, 2023 21:08

Comrade Koba: Jul 2, 2007

[RUSSIAN SPECIAL MILITARY OPERATION IN THE UKRAINE]

# ? Jul 2, 2023 21:09

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

Tankbuster posted:

all the good cartoons were in japan.

its legit wild how the anglosphere still sees "anime" as some weird deviant version of cartoons when literally everywhere thats not the anglosphere just sees anime as being what regular rear end cartoons look like if anything they need a special word to describe the cartoons that dont look like anime

# ? Jul 2, 2023 21:12

Ytlaya: Nov 13, 2005

Some Guy TT posted:

its legit wild how the anglosphere still sees "anime" as some weird deviant version of cartoons when literally everywhere thats not the anglosphere just sees anime as being what regular rear end cartoons look like if anything they need a special word to describe the cartoons that dont look like anime

It's funny how people in the 80s/90s would refer to "Japanimation" like it's the cheap low-rent version of superior American animation

The most generous interpretation of this is that they were comparing television cartoons with, like, Disney movies or something.

# ? Jul 2, 2023 21:17

KomradeX: Oct 29, 2011

Ytlaya posted:

It's funny how people in the 80s/90s would refer to "Japanimation" like it's the cheap low-rent version of superior American animation

The most generous interpretation of this is that they were comparing television cartoons with, like, Disney movies or something.

I think everyone in the 90s still thought it was all still speed racer. Though its really funny bynthe 80s and 90s American animation was being farmed out to Japanese studios

# ? Jul 2, 2023 21:20

Mantis42: Jul 26, 2010

80s Japan had so much capital floating around that they'd just throw you a bunch of money to make the craziest thing you'd ever see in your life. No way would Akira be made the way it was a decade before or possibly after.

# ? Jul 2, 2023 21:24

Dikkfor: Feb 4, 2010

https://twitter.com/GunterFehlinger/status/1675587132105039874?t=PHi3martNqbSknVG95ZebA&s=19

# ? Jul 2, 2023 21:28

Jeff Fatwood: Jun 17, 2013

gunther maincharacter

# ? Jul 2, 2023 21:34

Dixon Chisholm: Jan 2, 2020

Frosted Flake posted:

It's the same reason why John Mearsheimer is seemingly the only expert in International Relations pointing out the obvious problems with this whole thing. People educated in these fields have an interest in supporting the party line, often because it's their job, so whatever government policy is, that's going to be the public-facing expert consensus, at least among government employees: military, civil servants, academics at government institutions.

People not educated in these fields are hearing about concepts specifically as part of an effort to feed them a narrative, so they're not using that same knowledge to question it. What I mean is, someone who finds out what a howitzer is from MSNBC, CBC and NPR telling them the M777 is going to win the war for Ukraine is not going to turn around and question the claims being made from their knowledge of gunnery or whatever, their entire exposure to the field is those claims. It's like, idk a veneer of knowledge, because educated people respond to the presentation of expertise from sources they trust, so because they're good at electrical engineering or whatever gave them the class position that made them Globe and Mail readers in the first place, they trust that the information being provided to them in the Globe and Mail is also good. I'm not sure if I strung that together correctly, but as a Globe and Mail subscribing household, it's like, we read it because we're smart, because our smartness made us meritocrats that can afford to and benefit from a subscription, and so the contents of the Globe and Mail, even about subjects we know nothing about, are also a reasonable basis for forming our opinions.

Rick Perlstein does this thing in his books on Nixon and Reagan, which Christman talks about often, where he'll pause the narrative to talk about what books people were reading, what was playing on Broadway, what critics and newspaper columnists thought about middle-highbrow culture XYZ. So, obviously what was happening in the Bronx was on people's minds, but sensible, educated people got their understanding of it from reading The Power Broker, a book everyone read and everyone talked about. A few years ago, I think Christman got a laugh out of this, there was a wave of left podcasters who all rediscovered The Power Broker too, so that on Cumtown Nick was talking about reading it, Adam was pretending to have started reading it, that's sort of a distant echo of how people formed opinions back in the day, at least in Perlstein's narrative.

So to stay on that for a moment, let's say I don't know anything about urban planning. I have started reading a handful of books on the Bronx and New York in the 70's, but I don't have any base of knowledge to question what's contained in those books. Reading enough of them means that when I see the 538 article Why The Bronx Really Burned that says the reason 97% of buildings in parts of the borough were destroyed in a decade was:

"a misguided �best and brightest� effort by New York City to increase government efficiency. With the help of the Rand Corp., the city tried to measure fire response times, identify redundancies in service, and close or re-allocate fire stations accordingly. What resulted, though, was a perfect storm of bad data: The methodology was flawed, the analysis was rife with biases, and the results were interpreted in a way that stacked the deck against poorer neighborhoods. The slower response times allowed smaller fires to rage uncontrolled in the city�s most vulnerable communities."

I know that's bullshit lmao. However, if I was a 538 reader first, which means my knowledge of the issue came only from 538, which I trust to be right about things, that sounds perfectly reasonable. Now, of course, urban planners, social historians, there are a tonne of people who would have their eyes just about popping out of their head at 538's explanation. Ideologically too, someone who understands neoliberalism or even the politics of 538 can see the angle there, but that ideological framework that allows them to weigh their worldview against what's being presented, that might be considered countercultural. To just a normie, why would you doubt 538 on this?

Okay, well same deal with the Ukraine stuff, only, as people have been pointing out since the moment this kicked off, within liberal, middle class culture, there's way more skin in the game in Slava-ing than just passively supporting Robert Moses and thinking gosh bad data is why landlords were allowed to burn down The Bronx, and black and Puerto Rican people were publicly vilified for it for decades. Supporting Ukraine meant, more-or-less that you were a good person, and it was gauche at best to push back against that, at least on the dinner party circuit. Professionally I don't know what the consequences are because I never rolled those dice. The point is, if you weren't educated in manoeuvre warfare and therefore have a specific reason to doubt claims being made for Ukraine, not only are you not going to easily find information that casts doubt, not only do you not likely have an ideological reason to doubt, but doubting itself has a social penalty especially since Ukraine has become a culture war issue, with good, nice, centrist liberals supporting Ukraine and evil MAGAs and, to a degree, Bernie Bros, not #standingwithUkraine.

Also, as the Americans ITT have pointed out, for the pussy hat set, Putin = Trump = Hillary losing the election. So, if you're a Maddow watcher, you're extremely invested in Ukraine, which is why this week they were supporting the mercenary organization they had just spent 18 months running around claiming were Nazis.

These are all examples of how we're influenced, knowingly or unknowingly, to subscribe to a particular perspective. The trust we place in sources, based on our societal status or because they flatter our presumed intellectual merit, sway our opinions on topics we are not experts in. Experts have as many reasons to toe the line as the rest of us, and nobody is an expert on everything. I have no idea about the claims being made about Storm Shadow or HARM, but since they lied their heads off about gun and rocket artillery, I'm assuming that aerial weapons got the same gloss. If there wasn't that initial wedge there, I'd might've have no real reason to doubt them at all.

The blatant rewriting of the history of WW2 is another huge wedge though. So is blatantly lying and contradicting themselves over AZOV, and those are things I've seen start to peel off normies, particularly when the NYT wrote that article about why swastikas are good or whatever. That's enough, I think, to get people who would otherwise just nod along to the Paper of Record, and would have no reason to question anything to do with Ukraine, to have that first... idk, moment of dissonance?

john mearshitter

# ? Jul 2, 2023 21:41

captainbananas: Sep 11, 2002; Ahoy, Captain!

Dixon Chisholm posted:

john mearshitter

Rack em

# ? Jul 2, 2023 21:47

Actuary X: Jul 20, 2007; Not really the best actuary in the world.

Skaffen-Amtiskaw posted:

Do you think if Trump gets in next year that may change?

I wonder, and have for a while, just how long people will accept this state of affairs. Last autumn when the AFU was making stellar land gains and took out the rail span of the Crimean bridge, it seemed like there was no chance of a lull in support and a long haul affair was being accepted. Now? Not so sure. The US is really the backbone here, and if it ups and leaves, I don't see the Europeans being able to keep things going for much longer.

Trump actively wants Russia to win, he has said as much

# ? Jul 2, 2023 21:51

Horseshoe theory: Mar 7, 2005

Dikkfor posted:

https://twitter.com/GunterFehlinger/status/1675587132105039874?t=PHi3martNqbSknVG95ZebA&s=19

Elon Musk...good?! :eyepop:

# ? Jul 2, 2023 21:56

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

Freezer posted:

bend the knee to Elon and get an account.

gently caress u elon i may be an obnoxious gimmick poster but this time youve gone too far!!!

# ? Jul 2, 2023 21:58

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# ? May 26, 2024 06:15

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

Frosted Flake posted:

The blatant rewriting of the history of WW2 is another huge wedge though. So is blatantly lying and contradicting themselves over AZOV, and those are things I've seen start to peel off normies, particularly when the NYT wrote that article about why swastikas are good or whatever. That's enough, I think, to get people who would otherwise just nod along to the Paper of Record, and would have no reason to question anything to do with Ukraine, to have that first... idk, moment of dissonance?

remember how before the war in ukraine they were always trying to convince us that random poo poo like the ok hand gesture or holding up three fingers were signs of nazi affiliation good times

# ? Jul 2, 2023 22:00

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Ukraine] EU: Nice minister, shame if something were to happen...

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