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Terrible double post snipe 
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Jul 3, 2023 00:08
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ilkhan posted:Why fund a lawsuit on behalf of white people when Harvard is being obviously/blatantly/mostly-openly racist against Asians? I'm saying, in their "ideal" world where they own a magic wand that can set whatever caselaw they want without needing to actually win a court case, they would've preferred to strip benefits from black students while keeping the anti-asian discrimination as well.
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Jul 3, 2023 00:11
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:Harvard being racist against asians was the entire reason the lawsuit was originally filed. The hilarious thing is, affirmative action probably could have stayed in place if it wasn't for the fact that colleges were flagrantly being racist against asians. There's putting a thumb on a scale and just dropping a brick on it. Asking asians to score like 300+ points more on the SAT's than everyone else and just saying 'asians have terrible personalities' in their ratings (while simultaneously having your alumni rating their personalities high when they actually meet them for interviews, of course that didn't count towards the decision), also probably not a good idea to have email exchanges like this: quote:Messages among UNC admissions officers included statements such If "it's" brown... lmao. Do liberals know how racist they sound sometimes? It's just flagrant and indefensible that any court/liberal justice could conclude racial discrimination wasn't happening here. Mister Fister fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Jul 3, 2023 |
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Jul 3, 2023 00:19
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Mister Fister posted:The hilarious thing is, affirmative action probably could have stayed in place if it wasn't for the fact that colleges were flagrantly being racist against asians. This is part of my confusion in thinking this is pageantry and limited participation. A large number of west coast schools - UCLA and Seattle U as examples are going out of their way to get more Asian students (primarily Chinese to increase forex student revenue). So the anti Asian conclusions to me, indicates a good number of schools did not get a voice in this.
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Jul 3, 2023 00:25
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Mister Fister posted:If "it's" brown... lmao. Do liberals know how racist they sound sometimes? It's just flagrant and indefensible that any court/liberal justice could conclude racial discrimination wasn't happening here. I always thought the left's argument was that any imbalance was due to systemic injustice and ergo it is correct to discriminate until you have equity in representation. Or that is to say that it isn't discrimination since they are benefitting from systemic bias towards them. Hence the suggestion by some that Asians should actually be reclassified as "white".
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Jul 3, 2023 00:35
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MikeC posted:I always thought the left's argument was that any imbalance was due to systemic injustice and ergo it is correct to discriminate until you have equity in representation. Or that is to say that it isn't discrimination since they are benefitting from systemic bias towards them. Hence the suggestion by some that Asians should actually be reclassified as "white". Yes, some progressives have classified Asians as 'white adjacent'. And once Hispanics started 'stepping out of line' by starting to vote GOP, we get garbage takes like this: https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/04/us/census-browning-of-america-myth-blake/index.html Then you have the recent protest by Muslim Americans over LGBTQ curriculum in schools and, again, being 'white supremacists' (i'm confused what this has to do with whiteness, it's just religion). The fundamental problem with the Democratic party is that the upper middle class white progressive is the vanguard of the party who sets tone and pushes policy and they keep having these expectations of POC's to just 'fall in line' and think exactly the way they do, but it just doesn't work that way, the Democratic party is a big tent party held together by a shoestring.
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Jul 3, 2023 00:45
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Mister Fister posted:Yup, a lot of people don't understand why rich folks might have a lot of debt: If your student loans are 4%, but say you invested all your money in a broad based index fund, say the S&P 500,, for example, the returns are like 7-10% over a long time horizon, it makes 0 sense for the wealthy person to pay off their loans. Hell, inflation alone can eat into those loans too. Growing up I always thought everyone knew about this, even if they don't have enough income to take advantage. I was shocked the first time I ran into someone who categorically viewed debt as "how they getcha." Guess my skin color and economic class! What I still don't get is how rich people end up owing like 400k in student loans, aside from med school. Maybe I'm loving up the numbers, but even need school has an average cost--including undergraduate--around $250k.
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Jul 3, 2023 15:49
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Blue Footed Booby posted:Growing up I always thought everyone knew about this, even if they don't have enough income to take advantage. I was shocked the first time I ran into someone who categorically viewed debt as "how they getcha." Guess my skin color and economic class! In some cases, student loans can be used for living expenses as well. If you fully believe you're going to be taking a mid-6 figure job straight out of grad school if you place well enough, it can make sense to go into debt for housing. The other half of that is that there are a handful of schools that are just that expensive, especially if you don't qualify for/receive any student aid or grants.
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Jul 3, 2023 16:15
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Blue Footed Booby posted:Growing up I always thought everyone knew about this, even if they don't have enough income to take advantage. I was shocked the first time I ran into someone who categorically viewed debt as "how they getcha." Guess my skin color and economic class! Law school alone these days can easily top 300k once you count living costs. (Eg, Georgetown.) Add in undergrad and 400k is trivial.
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Jul 3, 2023 16:37
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I have a 200k student loan debt and haven't made even the tiniest dent into the principal of it in the 10 years since I graduated. I don't have a 6-figure salary though.
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Jul 3, 2023 16:39
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Kalman posted:Law school alone these days can easily top 300k once you count living costs. (Eg, Georgetown.) Add in undergrad and 400k is trivial. This seems like a problematic barrier to entry 
Blue Footed Booby fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Jul 3, 2023 |
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Jul 3, 2023 16:48
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Nitrousoxide posted:I have a 200k student loan debt and haven't made even the tiniest dent into the principal of it in the 10 years since I graduated. Exactly why i'm mentoring this hispanic kid in my gym to go into trades. A couple years of schooling, a couple thousand dollars in tuition, and you make like $50 an hour right out the door, pretty much guaranteed (well, for plumbing, anyway). College is a scam, folks!
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Jul 3, 2023 16:57
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My little brother wants to be a nuclear engineer, and even with his out of state tuition fee waived at UT due to Louisiana not having such a program, his 4 year undergrad tuition costs more than my pharmacy doctorate tuition 7 years ago. He's not a bad student, but because our dad makes ~$80k(?)per year as a senior cath lab nurse with 30 years experience, he can't get much of anything out of FAFSA. It took half a generation for education to go from ludicrously expensive but manageable to "hard class strata enforcement mechanism". I'm almost done paying off my $200k debt from a very mid pharmacy school thanks to aggressively paying during the pause and some other lucky circumstances so I can help him a bit, but I can't shake the feeling that education will be financially out of reach for everyone who isn't independently wealthy before any kids I have are even out of elementary school. All the better to create a permanent indebted serf class I guess.
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Jul 3, 2023 17:32
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Dr. Red Ranger posted:My little brother wants to be a nuclear engineer, and even with his out of state tuition fee waived at UT due to Louisiana not having such a program, his 4 year undergrad tuition costs more than my pharmacy doctorate tuition 7 years ago. He's not a bad student, but because our dad makes ~$80k(?)per year as a senior cath lab nurse with 30 years experience, he can't get much of anything out of FAFSA. It took half a generation for education to go from ludicrously expensive but manageable to "hard class strata enforcement mechanism". I'm almost done paying off my $200k debt from a very mid pharmacy school thanks to aggressively paying during the pause and some other lucky circumstances so I can help him a bit, but I can't shake the feeling that education will be financially out of reach for everyone who isn't independently wealthy before any kids I have are even out of elementary school. University of Texas? Google says the current in-state tuition there is $5.7k per semester (plus an extra fee if you attend the business or engineering schools), which comes out to around $45.6k for a full four-year degree. Not exactly pocket change, but with a nuclear engineer's salary (BLS says their median salary is $120k) it shouldn't take decades to pay off a loan of that size. Assuming, of course, that there's actually a job market for nuclear engineers outside the Navy these days.
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Jul 3, 2023 18:06
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Arizona AG called the discrimination ruling unconstitutional and said Arizona will still enforce all protections against discrimination. More than a bit disappointed a state AG is doing what Biden should have done the day of ruling.
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Jul 3, 2023 18:15
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Space Fish posted:The ironic/bizarre dimension to stories like this is how the right loves to use the narrative of "when I was a kid, some girls were tomboyish or liked their hair short but they were still a girl," and now the tomboys are being labeled as sports-stealing trans kids groomed by sex-pest adults. At what point does someone look in the mirror and figure out they're the only one causing a commotion? Also, lol at their side of the story being "we weren't yelling AT the kid, we were just calling for a ref to confirm a nine-year-old's genitals out loud and in front of everyone, that's all, what's the big deal." I don't know about that chart, but I saw some data a few weeks ago showing that the average black student admitted to Harvard has something like a 2100 SAT score, so the bar is pretty high. It's definitely harder to get in if you're Asian, and I think Asian applicants have every right to be upset about this, from a purely individualistic standpoint. I worked at an Ivy League for 5 years. Some of the student athletes were shockingly dumb. Every other demographic seemed equally smart. There's a ton of unfairness baked into the admissions process and going after AA isn't going to solve it.
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Jul 3, 2023 18:18
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Main Paineframe posted:University of Texas? Google says the current in-state tuition there is $5.7k per semester (plus an extra fee if you attend the business or engineering schools), which comes out to around $45.6k for a full four-year degree. Not exactly pocket change, but with a nuclear engineer's salary (BLS says their median salary is $120k) it shouldn't take decades to pay off a loan of that size. Assuming, of course, that there's actually a job market for nuclear engineers outside the Navy these days. University of Tennessee, the big turbo football school. Living expenses, tuition, books, etc are adding up to his 4 year undergrad degree costing ~$100k. Extra lovely was the school kicking out half the on-campus housing kids to make room for new students going into his sophomore year, and average rent in the surrounding city appearing to double overnight, totally coincidentally. He's pretty depressed about the whole situation but we're doing what we can. EDIT: Ok, I realize in retrospect that I've conflated his tuition+housing costs with my tuition. So his tuition+ housing and expenses for his 4 years of undergrad will cost him $~100k total, and from what I understand he'll have to go to at least a master's program afterwards to land the actual nuclear engineer job, which will also be tremendously, ludicrously expensive. Dr. Red Ranger fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Jul 3, 2023 |
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Jul 3, 2023 18:37
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BillsPhoenix posted:Arizona AG called the discrimination ruling unconstitutional and said Arizona will still enforce all protections against discrimination. Arizona infected with the woke mind virus… Never been happier to be an AZ voter tbh
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Jul 3, 2023 18:39
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Mister Fister posted:Exactly why i'm mentoring this hispanic kid in my gym to go into trades. A couple years of schooling, a couple thousand dollars in tuition, and you make like $50 an hour right out the door, pretty much guaranteed (well, for plumbing, anyway). It really is crazy how much people are pushed into college when these jobs are out here. I work for a company paying guys mid 60s an hour for unskilled work. We will hire guys who have not graduated high school and we have trouble getting enough good people. Is the issue that you are looked down upon for working with your hands? I don't know.
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Jul 3, 2023 18:48
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Troutful posted:I don't know about that chart, but I saw some data a few weeks ago showing that the average black student admitted to Harvard has something like a 2100 SAT score, so the bar is pretty high. It's definitely harder to get in if you're Asian, and I think Asian applicants have every right to be upset about this, from a purely individualistic standpoint. As I said in an earlier post, the distribution ignores the question of sufficient preparation. It also ignores the question of whether the test scores mean anything for a specific institution. Most colleges don't have any evidence on what academic index (SAT/GPA) translates into what academic outcomes at their school; as far as I'm aware, only the UC system and MIT have made public claims about testing and what it can tell you about outcomes (and even for those institutions, it is limited), and many other colleges have been conspicuously silent. When I talk to friends/colleagues who work in selective college admissions, a lot of them will say that they don't see their job as accepting the students who are the most academically outstanding applicants; they see their job as selecting the students who will form the most outstanding class of graduates after they have spent four years at that college. There's a great line from an old admissions book where the former dean at MIT (and longtime board member for the College Board) says something like "you can't tell by looking at a frog how far it will jump," i.e. that you can't really tell how good an applicant will be, and so you should look for rough preparation + broad diversity, rather than a narrow focus on test scores (and no one things that SAT scores are an index of advanced potential anyway; there is some evidence that e.g. the Olympiads work for that at the most rarified air). The point being that "meritocracy", already a troublesome concept, really depends on where you are setting the measurement point (before or after the college education). It's worth noting that at the trial court level, SFFA combed through hundreds of handpicked Harvard files and couldn't find a single one where a student was racially discriminated against, and the trial court ruled that their process complied with Grutter. And of course, big picture, the real problem here (for all students, of all backgrounds) is the artificial scarcity created by elite reproduction for a few selective colleges (Charles Petersen's dissertation focuses on this). If UMass or CSU led to the same job opportunities as MIT and UCLA, you wouldn't see the same anxiety about where to go.
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Jul 3, 2023 18:48
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BillsPhoenix posted:Arizona AG called the discrimination ruling unconstitutional and said Arizona will still enforce all protections against discrimination. So what happens when the state AG just says "nah" to a SCOTUS ruling?
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Jul 3, 2023 18:49
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MikeC posted:I always thought the left's argument was that any imbalance was due to systemic injustice and ergo it is correct to discriminate until you have equity in representation. Or that is to say that it isn't discrimination since they are benefitting from systemic bias towards them. As others have noted, the primary issue is that this was Thurgood Marshall's rationale in Bakke, but it was not a majority opinion, and the majority opinions in both Bakke and Grutter expressly forbid pursuing the redress of past discrimination through college admissions. KBJ's dissent brings this up and argues that we should recover that road not taken, but who knows if that will happen in her lifetime, given the current constitution of the Court.
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Jul 3, 2023 18:50
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pencilhands posted:Is the issue that you are looked down upon for working with your hands? I don't know. Yes. (Also that while trades provide a comfortable living, they don’t have the lottery ticket career potential a college degree theoretically has.)
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Jul 3, 2023 19:05
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Kalman posted:Yes. (Also that while trades provide a comfortable living, they don’t have the lottery ticket career potential a college degree theoretically has.) There's also the consequences of physical labor to contend with - the chances of career-ending workplace injury are far higher in the trades. So then you're 40, no longer able to work, and then what? Depend on our country's bountiful social safety net?
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Jul 3, 2023 19:16
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I really enjoyed the humanities/social sciences education I got with my college degree, which was largely unrelated to my STEM field. I would be so much less knowledgeable in so many areas without that. You wouldn't get that sort of thing in trade school, and I think it continues to benefit me greatly. We shouldn't understate the value of education for knowledge's sake outside of whatever career benefit it might bring. Sure, one can learn about those subjects outside the confines of a classroom, but how many people actually devote the time to it?
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Jul 3, 2023 19:25
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There Bias Two posted:I really enjoyed the humanities/social sciences education I got with my college degree, which was largely unrelated to my STEM field. I would be so much less knowledgeable in so many areas without that. Yeah I think the takeaway is that a degree should be free, not that education is for chumps.
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Jul 3, 2023 19:41
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There Bias Two posted:So what happens when the state AG just says "nah" to a SCOTUS ruling? Desegregation is the only thing that comes to mind - and that needed explicit support from the president & executive branch to be supported. I'm more than a bit worried this just ends up back at the courts and the topic slowly gains support, with the executive branch refusing to weigh in betting speeches.
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Jul 3, 2023 19:59
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There Bias Two posted:So what happens when the state AG just says "nah" to a SCOTUS ruling? The judiciary lacks an enforcement arm (by design) so if no one will enforce a ruling it sparks a crises. In theory if a bakery refused to make a cake tomorrow and the government came in and said they had to, say, pay a fine, they could challenge the fine and win based on the SCOTUS case. If they, say, attempted to take away their business license and/or physically bar them from working then it would be a real big crises since the government would at that point be operating outside the rule of law. Again, the owner could challenge this and the courts would say they win but if the other branches won’t actually stop what they’re doing we’re deep in crises territory. Edit: if it were something the legislative and executive branch wanted to enforce they could do things like pass laws taking highway funding away from states that aren’t following X decision, but I don’t see that happening in this case.
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Jul 3, 2023 20:11
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Petey posted:As I said in an earlier post, the distribution ignores the question of sufficient preparation. It also ignores the question of whether the test scores mean anything for a specific institution. Most colleges don't have any evidence on what academic index (SAT/GPA) translates into what academic outcomes at their school; as far as I'm aware, only the UC system and MIT have made public claims about testing and what it can tell you about outcomes (and even for those institutions, it is limited), and many other colleges have been conspicuously silent. Agree with all of this, and that MIT blog post was a pretty interesting read -- thanks for sharing it.
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Jul 3, 2023 20:19
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BillsPhoenix posted:Arizona AG called the discrimination ruling unconstitutional and said Arizona will still enforce all protections against discrimination. Do you have a source for this? Do you know what state law she's actually referring to? Because I don't think Arizona's state law (14-1442) even has protections for sexual orientation or gender identity independent of sex.
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Jul 3, 2023 20:38
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pencilhands posted:It really is crazy how much people are pushed into college when these jobs are out here. I work for a company paying guys mid 60s an hour for unskilled work. We will hire guys who have not graduated high school and we have trouble getting enough good people. Is the issue that you are looked down upon for working with your hands? I don't know. Yes, there is a stigma of being 'lesser than' someone who works with their hands than someone who has a degree and does knowledge work, even if the blue collar guy makes more money. Class isn't stratified by income as much anymore but by education. A taxi driver who has a PhD has more in common with a software engineer (in terms of politics/class) than a plumber who barely graduated from high school but pulls in $200k a year. Add in the fact that women tend to prefer men who are at least as educated as they are when it comes to dating/marriage... Personally, i think someone who does trades and gets paid a lot of money is, at the very least, infinitely smarter financially speaking than someone with a degree and a ton of debt... and i'm speaking as someone with a dual masters degree and a decent job. I actually think i would be in even better financial shape working as a tradesmen and just skipped college, based on opportunity cost. Do you mind telling me what unskilled jobs are paying $60 an hour? Want to pass it along to the kid i'm mentoring just in case. Petey posted:As I said in an earlier post, the distribution ignores the question of sufficient preparation. It also ignores the question of whether the test scores mean anything for a specific institution. Most colleges don't have any evidence on what academic index (SAT/GPA) translates into what academic outcomes at their school; as far as I'm aware, only the UC system and MIT have made public claims about testing and what it can tell you about outcomes (and even for those institutions, it is limited), and many other colleges have been conspicuously silent. Going to refer to Freddie Deboer again: https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/you-arent-actually-mad-at-the-sats Along with this infographic from the article wrt to how much the SAT's matter post-college:  Also saw on twitter someone posting an article about how grades are going up but other standardized test scores are going down across the nation, which is not surprising to me in the least, there was a recent scandal in Baltimore where the school system changed 12,000 F's to passing grades because so many children would have not graduated from high school unless they cooked the books. Teachers across the country are incentivized (especially post-Covid) to basically pass students just for showing up to class and not even doing homework/pass tests. The number of anecdotes I've been reading on teachers forums is just insane. School administrators have all but given up and just push this poo poo on the teachers. Standardized tests are going to be the ONLY measure of college preparedness, with all the shenanigans going on with grade inflation. One more point in regards to standardized testing (yes, they DO matter), every demographic (racial/gender/whatever) has seen their SAT's tank in the last 10 or so years... EXCEPT asians, whose scores have actually gone up, even during covid/post covid. If colleges are going to get rid of SAT's in order to do racial balancing in an even more opaque way, I wouldn't be surprised to see more negative outcomes for both colleges and students (more dropouts and no ability to pay for the student loans), and it might actual destroy college degrees as a means of signaling to employers if, in response, colleges drop academic standards even further to help these students obtain their degree.  Edit: I remember reading that the highest correlation towards academic success in college was the combination of SAT scores+HS GPA. At the rate we're going, GPA's are going to be meaningless in the future. Basic standards are going down the toilet. Mister Fister fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Jul 3, 2023 |
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Jul 3, 2023 20:50
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There Bias Two posted:So what happens when the state AG just says "nah" to a SCOTUS ruling? The state AG sues, and then the Arizona courts rule in favor of the defendant, who gets off with no punishment other than the annoyance and expense of having to defend themselves in court. It's really no different from all the blatantly unconstitutional laws red states are passing and getting overturned in court. It's worth noting that the Arizona AG didn't actually say that the ruling was unconstitutional, though, nor did she say that she would defy it. https://www.azag.gov/press-release/attorney-general-mayes-statement-us-supreme-court-decision-303-creative-llc-v-elenis quote:Today, a woefully misguided majority of the United States Supreme Court has decided that businesses open to the public may, in certain circumstances, discriminate against LGBTQ+ Americans. While my office is still reviewing the decision to determine its effects, I agree with Justice Sotomayor – the idea that the Constitution gives businesses the right to discriminate is "profoundly wrong." You could certainly interpret it that way, if you were predisposed to. But it's also completely consistent with an interpretation of "we disagree with this ruling, but we're confident that it doesn't totally overturn our anti-discrimination laws and we'll continue to enforce the parts that are still in effect".
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Jul 3, 2023 21:01
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Petey posted:
re: Olympiad comparison: USAMO (the math one) participation --- not doing well --- is something like 200-300 people among roughly 11th/12th graders. 800 in math SAT is something like 1% of test takers (though lots of fuzziness here due to rounding, can easily be a couple of times off if not more) --- which works out to order of 17,000, so roughly 2 orders of magnitude easier! (Though I probably say that in part because round 2 of USAMO qualification was incredibly hard that I still remember it crushing my skull in over 2 decades afterwards and I was nowhere near making it, so thinking of those who can make it as super-geniuses is good for my ego).
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Jul 3, 2023 21:04
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Telling everyone to into the trades instead of getting a degree doesn't solve the problem. It will just recreate all the problems we got telling everyone to get a degree if they wanted to make a decent wage. Let's say that happens tomorrow. Supply and demand: what happens to the cost of trade school if millions of people start applying? What happens to plumbers' pay if the number of plumbers shoots way up?
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Jul 3, 2023 22:09
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VitalSigns posted:Telling everyone to into the trades instead of getting a degree doesn't solve the problem. It will just recreate all the problems we got telling everyone to get a degree if they wanted to make a decent wage. I was charge $600 for 2 hours of plumbing work a few years ago. Nobody wants to do trades. The guy who charged me told me that he knows of another guy running a plumbing business who clears like $800k a year, again, because nobody wants to do those jobs. There are a ton of unskilled jobs that pay well that don't even require any sort of trade schools too. The people who are doing trades are aging and nobody is replacing them. Germany has an educational system that has 50% of people going into vocational schools because they do tracking (instead of pushing everyone towards college). It's not like they're earning mcdonalds wages.
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Jul 3, 2023 22:38
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I think folks spending a couple years in the trades before going into Engineering degrees be a drat requirement. The trades are the ESTABLISHED ways of performing a task, through the lens of safety, requirements, and social practice. All are important considerations when developing in field solutions. I absolutely refuse to hire any engineer who cannot prove they've been paid to perform labor in the field. Any wunderboi who shows up with a Harvard degree in ME can gently caress right off if I don't see 2 years in the field. They will cause me endless fuckups and fights as they attempt to solve problems beyond their emotional and social skill set. I would also take an engineer with 2 years in the field over a ME then a Master's degree fresh out. I'm a tradesmen converted to Manufacturing and loving hate my life; take that with a grain of salt. I also fear the great HR screen that will demote me to a Facilities Manager(Janitor) one day. The world needs more tradesmen, but the incentives to survive in it are sparse and cruel.
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Jul 4, 2023 00:11
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VitalSigns posted:Telling everyone to into the trades instead of getting a degree doesn't solve the problem. It will just recreate all the problems we got telling everyone to get a degree if they wanted to make a decent wage. Yes, exactly. It can be good advice on an individual level, as in if you've got a kid it's not bad to tell them to take a look at going that route. It's not at all a systemic answer though. edit: I should add, a lot of conservative ideas work out this same way. Not necessarily bad advice on an individual level but not dealing with the problems that still exist. Fork of Unknown Origins fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Jul 4, 2023 |
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Jul 4, 2023 00:18
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I do my lawyerly duty and tell anyone who asks for career advice to not go to lawschool.
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Jul 4, 2023 00:21
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Mister Fister posted:I was charge $600 for 2 hours of plumbing work a few years ago. Nobody wants to do trades. The guy who charged me told me that he knows of another guy running a plumbing business who clears like $800k a year, again, because nobody wants to do those jobs. There are a ton of unskilled jobs that pay well that don't even require any sort of trade schools too. The people who are doing trades are aging and nobody is replacing them. Germany has an educational system that has 50% of people going into vocational schools because they do tracking (instead of pushing everyone towards college). It's not like they're earning mcdonalds wages. The cost of education is low now, so it will always be no matter how high the demand goes. The pay for people with degrees is high so it will always be no matter how high the supply goes. Therefore everyone should get a degree and we'll all be rich. Then when these assumptions didn't hold the people who all tried to get the degrees were blamed. Why would economics work any different if everyone went to trade school tomorrow and became plumbers? Individualized solutions for systemic problems.
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Jul 4, 2023 00:25
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VitalSigns posted:This is the exact same reasoning people used in the 90s about 4 year degrees 1) You don't go into serious debt doing trades. Trade school is so cheap that anyone can afford it without taking a loan. Edit: And trade school is like 1-2 years of your time. The financial cost and opportunity cost is massively less than college so the downside risk is almost nothing, in comparison. 2) Again, germany has 50% of it's students doing vocational training 3) We need massively more people doing trades/manual work, there is a serious shortage Mister Fister fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Jul 4, 2023 |
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Jul 4, 2023 00:44
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