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M_Gargantua posted:If you accept that we can't fight Russia because they have nuclear weapons than you are both a coward and a fool. If you don't stop them then the whole international order falls apart. This has already been a nightmare for nuclear disarmament efforts. There is a middle ground between "Acquiesce to Russia at all costs" and "Let's go invade a nuclear armed party and que sera sera with regards to casualties because it's the moral thing to do." Proxy war through Ukraine seems to be remarkably effective. We don't need to invade Russia as they seem quite content to A. perish in Ukraine, and B. invade themselves.
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Jul 3, 2023 19:09
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This is a really stupid argument.
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Jul 3, 2023 19:30
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Raerlynn posted:There is a middle ground between "Acquiesce to Russia at all costs" and "Let's go invade a nuclear armed party and que sera sera with regards to casualties because it's the moral thing to do." If you don't consider a planet made of glass to be a satisfactory end state, you probably aren't in the right subforum
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Jul 3, 2023 19:31
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When did anybody ever suggest counter-invading russia
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Jul 3, 2023 19:37
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M_Gargantua posted:When did anybody ever suggest counter-invading russia I think Prigozhin did that last week.
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Jul 3, 2023 19:40
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Fivemarks posted:I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed. But I do say no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops. Uh, depending on the breaks.
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Jul 3, 2023 19:50
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Fivemarks posted:Right or wrong isn't determined by popularity.
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Jul 3, 2023 20:08
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bulletsponge13 posted:Am I the only one who doubts Russian nuke capabilities? e: drat that'll teach me to leave the window open Nessus fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Jul 3, 2023 |
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Jul 3, 2023 20:17
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EasilyConfused posted:This is a really stupid argument.
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Jul 3, 2023 21:25
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I hope there's some good news soon, all the Ukraine threads are derailing.
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Jul 3, 2023 21:28
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My position is that we probably shouldn't go balls to the wall "FIAT CAELUM, RUAT ET JUSTICIA" and start Global Thermonuclear War when there are better options available. Right now, things in Ukraine are going fine- we could give the Ukrainians more materiel support, but things are fine. But if Putin decides to pull out the Nuke Card and demand all foreign aid to Ukraine stop or he nukes a European capital, I'd be in favor of calling that bluff.
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Jul 3, 2023 21:40
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Fivemarks posted:My position is that we probably shouldn't go balls to the wall "FIAT CAELUM, RUAT ET JUSTICIA" and start Global Thermonuclear War when there are better options available. Right now, things in Ukraine are going fine- we could give the Ukrainians more materiel support, but things are fine. But if Putin decides to pull out the Nuke Card and demand all foreign aid to Ukraine stop or he nukes a European capital, I'd be in favor of calling that bluff. There is an ongoing genocide. Children are continuing to be abducted. Things are NOT fine.
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Jul 3, 2023 22:01
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Back to Ukraine stuff, The Economist released a special report about how technology and tactics are changing in response to the lessons learned in the war. Really good read. https://www.economist.com/special-report/2023/07/03/like-the-first-world-war-but-with-high-technology I don't have enough gift articles left to link them all, but if you can get a cheap trial offer and then cancel it, I recommend it.
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Jul 3, 2023 22:10
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psydude posted:Back to Ukraine stuff, The Economist released a special report about how technology and tactics are changing in response to the lessons learned in the war. Can't you use Archive.org to get a snapshot and share it that way.
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Jul 3, 2023 22:15
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Gaius Marius posted:Can't you use Archive.org to get a snapshot and share it that way. 12ft.io works for a lot of papers archive.is works for all the ones that don't
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Jul 3, 2023 22:25
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Someone already "archived" it, so its right there if someone slaps it the URL. Would actually linking it count as  ?
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Jul 3, 2023 22:27
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has prigo been confirmed dead or is he just disappeared?
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Jul 3, 2023 22:37
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spankmeister posted:12ft.io works for a lot of papers Useful. Thx.
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Jul 3, 2023 22:45
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pmchem posted:has prigo been confirmed dead or is he just disappeared?
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Jul 3, 2023 22:49
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Dolash posted:Probably because if the right thing knowingly leads to the destruction of the entire world, it's inherently not the right thing? Try explaining to the vast majority of people around the world just trying to get by that because of events very far from them that they have no power over and barely any knowledge of, they all need to die. Boy are you in for a big surprise when you read your first history book…
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Jul 3, 2023 22:56
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Fivemarks posted:Let the world die in a pyre of nuclear hellfire, if that is what it takes to do the right thing. If modern civilization requires that we sit back and let genocides and war crimes happen because "We can't stop them because the perpetrator might throw a nuclear temper tantrum," then modern civilization deserves to die. Settle down, Woke Edward Teller.
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Jul 3, 2023 22:57
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Could we please not be flippant about killing 50 million or more people because the murder-state offends our moral compass? I don't think you should let a bully dictate anything, but when a hostage taker threatens to kill his hostages you have to be strategic in your response else you're just going to get everyone killed. If it takes 2 hours or 20, the end goal is liberation of the hostages and either neutralization or capture of the hostage taker, and we the depend on specialists in the field to do that. I haven't seen our specialists making many mistakes so far in this war, and yeah it really sucks that it takes a few dozen months to wring more from the MIC for the Ukrainians, but jfc could we not advocate for taking on the bet that Russia's entire arsenal, the one that was up until the 2020s pretty consistently inspected for authenticity by our teams, was sold for dacha improvements? Children are being abducted? Yeah this is a drat genocide, I agree. We don't test the potential ending of the world because children are being taken hostage by a marauding vatnik murder state. We give every bullet and every shield and every tank we can give to the Ukrainian state so they can grab their children themselves and work very hard to restrict Russia's ability to lash out by calling them out for false flag planning and providing UKR excellent C4 guidance. Which is what we've been doing? Right? Russia's leadership deserves its eventual fate of international trial and/or grave. Russians themselves are not enemies of the civilized world. A solid third are caught in a lovely system that nails them down and threatens to destroy everything they care about if they don't turn their eyes at the criminality of their leadership, literally loving prisoners in their homes who wish to be a part of that civilized world; another third, fed a constant diet of propaganda that if you or your elder grandparents were exposed to would needle down your psyche into rationalizing irrational positions. The last third are just trying to survive in loving towns that make S.T.A.L.K.E.R.'s setting a loving docu-reel, and have no real guilt in this. We keep slow-walking into our response, and it's because we don't know what will take an irrational actor like Putin to make the most irrational choice of ending the world. This war isn't going to end tomorrow, it's a war of attrition and the Ukrainians are willing to fight it for us, they're dying for their families and their children and we can support that. This is a multi-year war for Ukraine, we have to accept that. We're on the precept of sending them 4th gen fighters to regain control of their airspace, an unthinkable proposition just 14 months ago. I don't think we should actively be promoting the idea that "if nukes fly, lol well we did it for democracy and the children with now-very-dead parents." Anyways, UKR/RUS news: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/03/...&smid=url-share The Russian embassy in DC and the US embassy in Moscow are getting into spitting matches with their host countries and it's kinda cute.
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Jul 3, 2023 23:00
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e: double post.
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Jul 3, 2023 23:00
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A Bad King posted:Anyways, UKR/RUS news: Some things happening at the NL embassy in Moscow as well: https://twitter.com/GillesBP/status/1675551415572353024  "From 2014 to 2022 in the Donbass 11000 people died. Where were the Netherlands for 8 years while innocent children died" And also: https://twitter.com/Kysia/status/1675589130347003904?s=20  "The Netherlands is a country of lies" (both translations mine)
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Jul 3, 2023 23:10
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spankmeister posted:Some things happening at the NL embassy in Moscow as well: Are they saying MH17 didn't happen? LoL, okay. Of course, that message is really for Muscovites, not the Dutch people.
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Jul 3, 2023 23:41
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A.o.D. posted:Are they saying MH17 didn't happen? LoL, okay. Russia blames Ukraine for MH17, too, I thought
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Jul 3, 2023 23:45
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Wasabi the J posted:Russia blames Ukraine for MH17, too, I thought They blame NATO, the gays, Satan, and your mother's apple pie for anything inconvenient or embarrassing for them.
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Jul 3, 2023 23:50
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shame on an IGA posted:love how the threat modellers for the 2000 warhead scenario had already run out of obvious targets and just went "uhhhh... mark all the big power plants and IDK just dump the other 1200 on the silo fields" I love that Camp Lejeune is completely ignored in favor of dropping 3 along the Cape Fear River for some reason. Also, what the gently caress is there in Maine that deserves several warheads.
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Jul 4, 2023 00:33
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Rev. Bleech_ posted:I love that Camp Lejeune is completely ignored in favor of dropping 3 along the Cape Fear River for some reason. Also, what the gently caress is there in Maine that deserves several warheads. Portsmouth Naval Shipyard and Bath Iron Works, along with (at the time) Loring Air Force Base near Bangor and NAS Brunwick. Pine Cone Jones fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Jul 4, 2023 |
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Jul 4, 2023 00:41
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Rev. Bleech_ posted:I love that Camp Lejeune is completely ignored in favor of dropping 3 along the Cape Fear River for some reason. Also, what the gently caress is there in Maine that deserves several warheads. That’s Wilmington. Given that Russia is pulling out museum pieces to go to the front, it would not surprise me that they thought the USS North Carolina might be a threat.
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Jul 4, 2023 00:47
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Rev. Bleech_ posted:I love that Camp Lejeune is completely ignored in favor of dropping 3 along the Cape Fear River for some reason. Also, what the gently caress is there in Maine that deserves several warheads. Portsmouth Naval Shipyard. It's a major Sub repair yard
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Jul 4, 2023 00:49
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Saul Kain posted:That’s Wilmington. Given that Russia is pulling out museum pieces to go to the front, it would not surprise me that they thought the USS North Carolina might be a threat. Sunny Point is a major logistics hub there. ~40% of every bullet, bomb, and shell that went to Iraq or Afghanistan went through there iirc. If the place went up in flames (nuclear or otherwise), the whole town of carolina beach would probably get wiped. Having lived in Wilmington for a while, it’d probably be an improvement.
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Jul 4, 2023 00:54
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Rev. Bleech_ posted:I love that Camp Lejeune is completely ignored in favor of dropping 3 along the Cape Fear River for some reason. Also, what the gently caress is there in Maine that deserves several warheads. Wasn't there an SAC base there too?
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Jul 4, 2023 01:03
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Saul Kain posted:That’s Wilmington. Given that Russia is pulling out museum pieces to go to the front, it would not surprise me that they thought the USS North Carolina might be a threat. Everyone is aware that that nuke target map isn't some official Russian target list, or even an official US strike estimate right? It was put together by some guy on the internet based on best guesses. I wouldn't take it very seriously or assume its terribly accurate. Then again who knows, its 2023 and maybe the Russian Strategic Rocket Forces saw it and retargeted all their ICBMs based on it.
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Jul 4, 2023 01:14
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Cimber posted:That map is pretty drat old. For example, they have the Burlington VT area targeted in a limited engagement to take out Plattsburgh Air Force Base. Which closed in 1995 and is now a civilian facility. A civilian facility with a runway that's still capable of supporting heavy military aircraft, and hosts Sikorsky and Pratt & Whitney facilities.
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Jul 4, 2023 01:15
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kill me now posted:Everyone is aware that that nuke target map isn't some official Russian target list, or even an official US strike estimate right? Yes, I am aware. That was, in fact, a joke. Forgive me this sin.
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Jul 4, 2023 01:17
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I wasn’t joking when I said it would take more than the cleansing power of nuclear flame to cure the land of the taint left by Fayetteville and Jacksonville 
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Jul 4, 2023 01:27
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Last time I checked, I'm riiiight in that sweet spot between two warheads from an SS-18 (CEP included) where my windows will break and I'll get a nice tan if I put some SPF 200 on, based on useful strategic targets for a full-on nuclear attack on the west that includes hitting Vancouver, BC. Of course, with my luck and Russia's technological track record, a warhead will go ten miles off course and land on my head.
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Jul 4, 2023 01:28
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Don’t see Willo567s balls on that there map.
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Jul 4, 2023 01:42
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Nessus posted:Don’t see Willo567s balls on that there map. I was at the beach all day, and I came back scrolling through 100 posts of Nuke chat with a target map and no one mentioning Willo's balls. Hell yeah, I think as I crack my posting knuckles. Then this post.
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Jul 4, 2023 02:59
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