(Thread IKs:
weg, Toxic Mental)
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thanks. i figured the russians were gonna show us a cardboard box version of a storm shadow, but that looks legit enough
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Jul 4, 2023 13:02
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| # ? May 29, 2024 21:13 |
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My Spirit Otter posted:can we pleases link pictures directly for those of us without a nazi hellhole account? we can't pretend the website actually works anymore, so https://twitter.com/dril/status/384411458794057728?s=46&t=-SJ0iV1ryOF9h29u1nKy4g
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Jul 4, 2023 13:02
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A Russian not speaking Ukrainian would get the gist of spoken or written Ukrainian with about 25-30% words that they wouldn't be able to guess intuitively. Likewise, a Ukrainian would be able to understand basic written Polish.
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Jul 4, 2023 13:09
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gently caress! From the pictures you can tell Russian logistics have learned how to palatize hotdogs.
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Jul 4, 2023 13:20
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Hmm how many times is this missile going to get moved around and photos taken from different angles
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Jul 4, 2023 13:29
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fatherboxx posted:A Russian not speaking Ukrainian would get the gist of spoken or written Ukrainian with about 25-30% words that they wouldn't be able to guess intuitively. Likewise, a Ukrainian would be able to understand basic written Polish. for now. we'll have to see what the languages look like in 20-30 years or so, but i wouldn't be shocked to see them drift apart a bit more rapidly than usual because of the war and the social contexts, to the point where whole new vocabularies get invented and used as ukrainians will begin to purge russisms in the language. there's a lot of precedent for that, especially in slavdom with things like BCS or the widening split between czech and slovak after the velvet divorce. there's going to be less ukrainian kids growing up speaking russian at home or at school and russian cultural exports to ukraine are probably going to be nonexistant for decades, if not generations. those sorts of things will change a language for sure.
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Jul 4, 2023 13:43
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mobby_6kl posted:Oh man have the French shot down 7 military aircraft already? I knew French protesters were hardcore. What were those aircraft doing in that neighborhood anyway? And dressed to kill? They were asking for it! This would never have happened in Russia. Where helicopters know their place and dress conservatively. RBA-Wintrow fucked around with this message at 13:46 on Jul 4, 2023 |
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Jul 4, 2023 13:44
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https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1676165665185562624 Grey Zone telegram says that Ukrainians are having success in the Bakhmut direction, and the Wanker SS being gone hasn't helped any either.
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Jul 4, 2023 13:59
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Pablo Bluth posted:https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1675520563073220610 Just imagine how historians will look at this war. Like in years to come instead of documentaries about ww2 with black and white footage it's going to be some historian showing this loving twitter video trolling the Russians.
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Jul 4, 2023 14:01
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E: I should refresh before posting
Karma Comedian fucked around with this message at 14:45 on Jul 4, 2023 |
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Jul 4, 2023 14:40
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NoiseAnnoys posted:there's going to be less ukrainian kids growing up speaking russian at home or at school and russian cultural exports to ukraine are probably going to be nonexistant for decades, if not generations. those sorts of things will change a language for sure. Well if/when occupied territories go back to Ukraine, there are going to be another few millions of Russian speakers in Ukrainian space so it is hard to tell how the language will evolve after that. Especially with the aging population.
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Jul 4, 2023 14:43
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Karma Comedian posted:E: I should refresh before posting Don't worry, I saw it the original message!
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Jul 4, 2023 14:51
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fatherboxx posted:Well if/when occupied territories go back to Ukraine, there are going to be another few millions of Russian speakers in Ukrainian space so it is hard to tell how the language will evolve after that. Especially with the aging population. yeah, nobody knows and linguistics is famously non-predicative. but it wouldn't surprise me to see a situation where future generations don't understand as much russian simply out of lack of constant contact or because of social pressure. hell, i see it here all the time with zoomer czech students who cannot understand slovak very well (especially eastern dialects) and these are two languages even closer than ukrainian and russian.
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Jul 4, 2023 14:53
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Tai posted:Don't worry, I saw it the original message! same, i lol'd NoiseAnnoys posted:yeah, nobody knows and linguistics is famously non-predicative. but it wouldn't surprise me to see a situation where future generations don't understand as much russian simply out of lack of constant contact or because of social pressure. i don't know a ton about the linguistics landscape of that part of the world; is any one language dominant enough to benefit from the trade language advantage? like english tends to win out over time in areas even where it is a minority language simply because learning english gives you access to a ton of trade and career opportunities for a lot of the western hemisphere. spanish has a similar if somewhat less pronounced cultural force in places not named brazil. obviously russia has tried very hard to export russian as a lingua franca but i have no idea how well that has succeeded. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Jul 4, 2023 |
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Jul 4, 2023 15:02
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I would guess Russian is franca in ex USSR countries e - Maybe in parts of Russia like Siberia too?
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Jul 4, 2023 15:06
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Coolguye posted:same, i lol'd
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Jul 4, 2023 15:09
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yea, that i would expect considering the history of the area, but to what extent russian provides opportunities matters a lot i think in a world where russia's political influence wanes and there are fewer government programs requiring its use. if everyone speaks at least a little russian, enough that when a ukranian and a georgian meet one another they find it easier to just use that, then i would expect russian to continue to have a lot of influence over the area. i saw this happening all the time last time i was in germany; a german and an italian or a german and a frenchman would just use english despite the fact that it was out of place for both of them. but if people only ever used russian to talk to bureaucrats and can't conduct other business in it, then it would fade along with those bureaucrats. i wouldn't have a goddamn clue though because never made it east of cologne. e: ah a post while i was typing Dwesa posted:For Slavic countries in EU, it's still English or German. For ex-USSR countries like Kazakhstan etc. it's Russian. ah, thanks very much
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Jul 4, 2023 15:16
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Dwesa posted:For Slavic countries in EU, it's still English or German. For ex-USSR countries like Kazakhstan etc. it's Russian. exactly. russian isn't going to disappear, but where you see yourself and more importantly your children, culturally, is going to change, and that's going to determine what second languages people want to learn or want to teach their kids. for an anecdotal example, i've heard from a number of central asians here in prague (who came for education and stayed here) that they don't plan on teaching their kids any russian, but rather english and czech (for access to the free universities here). few people in the former warsaw pact are dreaming of sending their kids to petersburg or moscow to become doctors anymore, but they'll be increasingly turning towards the west as it's got more of a future. it's another one of the million self-inflicted wounds the putin regime has done to their own country and culture, but who's counting at this point?
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Jul 4, 2023 15:20
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Just Chamber posted:Just imagine how historians will look at this war. Like in years to come instead of documentaries about ww2 with black and white footage it's going to be some historian showing this loving twitter video trolling the Russians. We need to freeze Ken Burns, so in 30 years we have a bunch of slow pans over NAFO memes and him explaining the Super Bonker 9000.
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Jul 4, 2023 15:23
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Tai posted:I would guess Russian is franca in ex USSR countries even before donbas/2014, it wasn't considered cool to speak russian in Lviv, but i remember the farther east you went, the more russofied it was. i picked some up on the fly when i was living there for politeness' sake, but mostly i spoke slovak and got by. the baltics seem to be mostly english these days (for obvious reasons), but that's not really my area of expertise, i just have a few estonian and lithuanian coworkers. central asia and the caucuses are where the evidence of change away from russian as a lingua franca are probably going to appear first in my opinion.
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Jul 4, 2023 15:23
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ChaseSP posted:Revolutions have a nasty habit in general of doing that in general even if you have strong desires for democracy if you're unable to deal with the contradiction of requiring a person or group with overwhelming power to get rid of the previous group/ruler. That the soviets got power via couping the government against the other people that also contributed i; the case of Russia didn't help either though. Many leftist fetishize revolutions, but you never know who end up on top - and it’s probably the ones you joined the revolution for
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Jul 4, 2023 15:29
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Russia must of done somethings that a bunch of countries are pulling away from using Russian as a language. It must just be an anomaly right?
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Jul 4, 2023 15:30
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Tai posted:Don't worry, I saw it the original message! Coolguye posted:same, i lol'd My great shame
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Jul 4, 2023 15:31
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I'm in my early 40s and a native Russian speaker. When I was in Czech a few years back, I could speak Russian with most adults my parent's age, 1/2 the people my age, and almost none of the people in their mid 20s. I think the experience will be similar with other former Soviet nations. I expect Russian will be dead once those currently in their 20s get to my age.
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Jul 4, 2023 15:31
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GABA ghoul posted:Russia has domestic artillery shells production. They are never gonna stop having artillery shells to fire at Ukraine. When someone says they are running out they mean that their stockpiles are getting low and their shell usage converges on their production rate. It's probably the tone of the article amplified by the secret hope of the reader, but I think this headline is often interpreted as "stockpile" = "total inventory", to the effect that Russian artillery will just evaporate in various places, and then altogether at some point. But obviously we've been seeing this same article for months, so it can't mean what the uniformed reader wants it to. What does the internal artillery production rate look like, and how does it compare with consumption? Vaginaface fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Jul 4, 2023 |
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Jul 4, 2023 15:39
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Russia speed dialing it's way to the top of the rankings on being the most polar opposite country in regards to communism and yet a sizeable amount of tankies are communist is still something I continually struggle to grasp. But Russia has free healthcare!! Check mate!
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Jul 4, 2023 15:58
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fatherboxx posted:Well if/when occupied territories go back to Ukraine, there are going to be another few millions of Russian speakers in Ukrainian space so it is hard to tell how the language will evolve after that. Especially with the aging population. If this earlier NYT piece is any indicator, there is home-grown pressure to speak and adopt Ukrainian. I remember reading from Tim Snyder somewhere (might be from On Tyranny) that the pace at which Russian language books were being collected and destroyed early on in the war was causing alarm among scholars that it would disadvantage those struggling to adopt Ukrainian and destroy rare and valuable works. No doubt the East will remain Russian speaking, but I could foresee change in areas of more mixed language use. It seems evident that Ukrainian is becoming the lingua franca. Something I have also wondered is whether there will be a large migration of Russian speakers westward into majority Ukrainian speaking areas due to economic hardships from the war. If so, it could dilute the Russian language in Ukraine.
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Jul 4, 2023 16:05
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lushka16 posted:I'm in my early 40s and a native Russian speaker.
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Jul 4, 2023 16:09
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Not sure it will stick around in Ukraine after a few more decades. Schools are going to no longer teach it. The language isn't banned but there's going to be a pull away from it. Can't say that I blame them tbh. Antipathy is going to be very strong after this war.
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Jul 4, 2023 16:15
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mobby_6kl posted:There's a bit of a difference though in that in the Warsaw Pact countries people were just made to learn Russian in school for a few decades, but there wasn't a sizeable enough minority that ever spoke it natively as a first language. In Ukraine (and Belarus it seems) russian many people, many people who would identify as 100% Ukrainian/Belorussian can still speak russian-first for number of historical reasons. So it'll definitely stick around. yeah, it'd be insanity to expect it to disappear, but lushka16 is right in that it isn't really the second language of choice most places anymore. it's definitely a generational marker in the former czechoslovakia, basically anyone under 40 is going to have learned english as a second language in school, everyone over will have learned german or russian. incidentally a few weeks ago, i was chatting at a university function with a (former) czech ambassador who was about 55 and he mentioned that most of the younger foreign service here don't even really read russian, so they were scrambling to recall people and fill the russian desk when the war kicked off. people will still learn russian even in ukraine, especially in the military or foreign services, because there's going to be an incentive to do so for counterintelligence or propaganda purposes, but i don't think a lot of people are going to be tuning into the new season of the russian masked singer or whatever.
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Jul 4, 2023 16:16
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Grape posted:Priggy's coup in retrospect feels very Burn After Reading. So what did we learn Palmer? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6VjPM5CeWs
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Jul 4, 2023 16:18
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Serious question, why is Ukraine trying to take back bakhmut? I thought half the lols about it was Russia throwing a shitload of dudes into a meat grinder for a city that didn't even really matter other than for their own propaganda, wouldn't Ukraine turning around and doing the exact same thing be kinda dumb?
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Jul 4, 2023 16:21
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Nooner posted:Serious question, why is Ukraine trying to take back bakhmut? Last I saw they are encirclcing it rather than taking it back. I would guess because there are a lot of troops inside and Bakhmut got turned into a symbolic city by both sides then it would be pretty comical to get it back or at least close it off. Good chance Russia media would have a meltdown if 10k troops or w/e the number got trapped inside.
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Jul 4, 2023 16:27
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Nooner posted:Serious question, why is Ukraine trying to take back bakhmut? That's a very valid concern, but it's one of the few places on the front that hasn't had time to be heavily fortified and mined. There's also a big difference between attacking it as part of an overall strategy and focusing on it to the exclusion of everything else.
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Jul 4, 2023 16:29
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mobby_6kl posted:There's a bit of a difference though in that in the Warsaw Pact countries people were just made to learn Russian in school for a few decades, but there wasn't a sizeable enough minority that ever spoke it natively as a first language. In Ukraine (and Belarus it seems) russian many people, many people who would identify as 100% Ukrainian/Belorussian can still speak russian-first for number of historical reasons. So it'll definitely stick around. It's very regional in Ukraine. Some areas are very Russian speaking, in other areas there are no Russian speakers. My father's native language is Ukrainian, however all education was in Russian (per Soviet attempt to kill Ukrainian), so he is equally native in Russian. His mother's native language was Ukrainian and she spoke Yiddish at home. She learned Russian post-war so she had a bit of an accent to my ear. So I would say that Russian was similarly forced onto Ukraine. At least since the early Stalin era. I was born in Russia, so I never spoke Ukrainian. I'm guessing that if I was born in Ukraine I'd know Ukrainian and Russian much like Zelenskyy (he's about my age). Based on some people I've met, I speculate that my kids would speak Ukrainian and English and perhaps Russian at a basic level. Their kids would likely speak no Russian much like I speak no Ukrainian. My family is from the western portion of Ukraine so I'm certain ymmv, especially in the border regions.
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Jul 4, 2023 16:39
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lushka16 posted:My family is from the western portion of Ukraine so I'm certain ymmv, especially in the border regions. any chance they were from the karpat'ska rus, if you don't mind my asking? that was one of the last yiddish speaking areas in central europe that remained after the second world war.
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Jul 4, 2023 16:44
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Anders posted:Many leftist fetishize revolutions, but you never know who end up on top - and it’s probably the ones you joined the revolution for Obviously, war is bad, however civil war...
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Jul 4, 2023 16:44
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Nooner posted:Serious question, why is Ukraine trying to take back bakhmut? Undermining Russian morale, primarily. Russia spent the better part of a year and sacrificed 100,000 men k/w (give or take) to take it. Ukraine taking it back fairly quickly would be a demoralizing. Plus, it is devoid of a lot of fixed defenses you find everywhere else. The main defensive lines are far behind it, so it's comparatively easier going. Also, it's not that it's Bakhmut, per se. It's a place to probe to force Russia to react. Ukraine is attacking at many places at once, trying to find a weak spot. If Bakhmut ends up being a breakthrough, Russia will have to start moving reinforcements from elsewhere to shore it up, which will then make a breakthrough somewhere else more likely.
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Jul 4, 2023 16:47
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Yep, I can also imagine that one of the 'things you'd like to do' in an offensive like that is to encircle units. And the problem is that in most places, if you manage to push, units are gonna pull back to secondary lines because they don't want to get encircled. But the troops in Bakhmut are going to be real reluctant to do so. So you stand perhaps a relatively good chance to get some tasty encirclements, and get a bunch of troops eliminated without having to actually storm them but just denying them any supply.
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Jul 4, 2023 17:03
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| # ? May 29, 2024 21:13 |
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During the Soviet period you had many people from Russia and other republics moving to Ukraine, especially the industrialized eastern cities, and Russian was specifically promoted to be the language of interethnic communication. Even the Ukrainian speakers who migrated from the countryside ended up basically being forced to adopt Russian for reasons of prestige and social mobility. It's the same sociological process that led to Brussels becoming French-speaking, except that in Ukraine it happened with every sizeable city in the south and east (as well as Kyiv). Without the Western Ukrainian heartland, the future of the Ukrainian language would probably look very bleak at this point. Fortunately, things are looking up now, with virtually all (subsidized) schooling now being in Ukrainian + the tentative linguistic shift that seems to be occurring as a result of the war. It's basically the opposite of what is happening with Belarusian, which will go virtually extinct within a generation or two, unless policy adjustments are made. It's not a coincidence that Russia-aligned dictator Lukashenko has done all he could to eradicate his country's native language.
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Jul 4, 2023 17:12
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