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Viktor Frankl on Why Idealists Are Real Realists https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loay2imHq5E
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Jul 5, 2023 13:30
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Earwicker posted:i'm not sure "offensive" is quite the right word but it would be immediately obvious to most jews that it wasn't jewish people who set up those decorations. personally, i would not really be bothered, that kind of thing happens all the time. but i do know some people who are particularly sensitive about that stuff and like to point it out. thats about as far as it goes though. This was pretty close to my (limited) understanding and I've passed it on, thanks a bunch. It's a kind of silly situation. The classic thing where someone in power makes a weird, out-of-touch decision and then people who actually care are trying their best in the bizarre constraints their given. Thanks a mill ; cheers.
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Jul 5, 2023 14:02
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I'm going to try fasting on Friday. I'll eat breakfast then only liquids until breakfast the next day. Or maybe I'll cheat, who knows.
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Jul 5, 2023 15:42
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with a good blender, anything can be a liquid
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Jul 5, 2023 17:38
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Earwicker posted:with a good blender, anything can be a liquid this is my fav verse from proverbs (nrsv translation)
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Jul 5, 2023 18:11
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Prurient Squid posted:I'm going to try fasting on Friday. I'll eat breakfast then only liquids until breakfast the next day. Or maybe I'll cheat, who knows.
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Jul 5, 2023 18:43
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Keromaru5 posted:Well, if you wanted to do it Orthodox style, you could just go vegan for the day. absolutely killing my plan to fast by quaffing a tankard of wet morning beef
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Jul 5, 2023 18:50
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Okay, here's a question I've often wondered about (and I swear that I'm not high right now): how would the discovery of extraterrestrial intelligence affect theology? I suspect that this would be less of an issue for Buddhism (since there is nothing preventing skandha being instantiated independently of human life) or Hinduism (since all consciousness can be subsumed under the concept of Brahman and as part of samsara), but how would the Abrahamic faiths - which hold that human being hold a special and personal relationship with God - deal with that? What if the ETs didn't believe in God, or believed in something very different? Would we insist that they need a saviour or divine guidance? If they lack religion in any recognisable sense, could we say that God has abandoned them? Would we hold that they were also created in the image of God? Do any serious theologians give this issue any thought?
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Jul 5, 2023 22:50
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I was actually talking to a friend about that the other day. I brought up how in the novel Past Master, St. Thomas More meets an alien that looks sort of like a sea lion, but because that alien possesses full reason, St. Thomas doesn't hesitate to consider it human. The idea is also implied in C.S. Lewis's Space Trilogy, in which the different Malacandran species recognize each other and humanity as essentially the same thing--it's humans who fail to do so, even with each other. I also think this is implied by the theory of the Meta-historical Fall, where the Fall did not take place in reality as we know it, but instead, before even the Big Bang. In that sense, it's not hard to consider any sapient species to be a descendent of Adam, and therefore made in the image of God.
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Jul 5, 2023 23:17
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Blurred posted:Okay, here's a question I've often wondered about (and I swear that I'm not high right now): how would the discovery of extraterrestrial intelligence affect theology? I suspect that this would be less of an issue for Buddhism (since there is nothing preventing skandha being instantiated independently of human life) or Hinduism (since all consciousness can be subsumed under the concept of Brahman and as part of samsara), but how would the Abrahamic faiths - which hold that human being hold a special and personal relationship with God - deal with that? What if the ETs didn't believe in God, or believed in something very different? Would we insist that they need a saviour or divine guidance? If they lack religion in any recognisable sense, could we say that God has abandoned them? Would we hold that they were also created in the image of God? Do any serious theologians give this issue any thought? The dividing line is going to be which groups consider them demons and which do not. For a preview of the former, take a look at what Hal Lindsey, of Late Great Planet Earth infamy is saying about UFOs. Spoiler alert: literal biblical demons. I'm sure a good number of his ilk will claim that, but I'd anticipate the vast majority of Christians to conclude that if they have consciousness and are able to think and reason as we do that they would have souls as we do. This is what I believe, for what it's worth. As for them not having religion or not having one that we recognize as such, well... Christianity hasn't exactly been shy about rolling up to nonbelievers and telling them they need Jesus irrespective of their present beliefs, so I don't see why the denominations that don't consider them demons wouldn't begin evangelizing immediately. As for how it'll go, well that'll depend a lot on the aliens, but we have psychos who try to evangelize to the Sentinelese people despite them being very clear that they'll kill anyone who comes ashore so I doubt there will be much that anyone can do to stop missionaries from trying, no matter what the aliens want. If we're lucky, they'll get a pat on the head and a one way transporter beam back to earth. If we're unlucky, well any aliens that can get here can almost certainly grab a few asteroids on the way to kill us all off dinosaur-style. A lot of this hinges, of course, on the aliens being similar enough to us that transfer of knowledge and concepts is possible. We could just as easily end up with aliens out of Arrival / The Story of Your Life or Solaris and then who the gently caress knows. Personally, I find the idea of someone chasing around a von Neumann probe and trying to tell it about Jesus to be very, very funny.
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Jul 6, 2023 00:08
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The chaos move is that the aliens show up and greet Earth leaders with what is recognizably the shahada
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Jul 6, 2023 01:46
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Squizzle posted:absolutely killing my plan to fast by quaffing a tankard of wet morning beef carmina burana rear end monks
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Jul 6, 2023 04:35
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Something else to consider is what claims the aliens themselves might make. There are various claims running through experiencer reports that the aliens created or seeded life on earth and that they have previously used their advanced technology to impersonate gods and create religion. This is supposedly what Jimmy Carter was told was true by the intelligence community and allegedly this is why he reversed his public stance on UFO secrecy. It is a claim that's been made publicly by a variety of contactees, for what it's worth, and while I don't buy that we have evidence of that but I do buy he was told we have evidence of that. A laim like that directly from aliens would shake a lot of religions and depending on levels of proof offered could actually change things but if they just land on the white house lawn one day and start shaking hands, I'm less inclined to think it would actually pose any theological issue for most groups.
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Jul 6, 2023 13:56
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Azathoth posted:Something else to consider is what claims the aliens themselves might make. There are various claims running through experiencer reports that the aliens created or seeded life on earth and that they have previously used their advanced technology to impersonate gods and create religion. Yeah, I think that's a pretty good summary. There is no monolithic "voice of religion." Some religions would freak out, some would say, "Oh, cool!" Over time, theology would adapt.
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Jul 6, 2023 14:05
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A lot of the projections on how "religion" or "the church" would take alien contact (or even just the discovery of microbes on Mars or Europa) seem to presume that American fundamentalist Evangelical Christianity is modal. I can't really blame people for thinking that in the US, especially since uncounted numbers of people have traumatic stories, but it really is not the entire scene and never has been. It is in fact an anomalous outgrowth which happens to be terribly prominent because it's politically favored by a major party in the most powerful country on the planet. To add actual content, I think that Buddhism would in general weather the arrival of the space brothers very well. Many of the various Jataka tales could easily suggest incarnation by Shakyamuni in lives which were not Homo sapiens in the historical record. You probably would have to expand the category of "human" in order to include other beings comparable to humanity. Very advanced aliens might be nearer to minor deva realm beings than to humans, it would depend on what their technology does. Nessus fucked around with this message at 14:20 on Jul 6, 2023 |
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Jul 6, 2023 14:13
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Nessus posted:A lot of the projections on how "religion" or "the church" would take alien contact (or even just the discovery of microbes on Mars or Europa) seem to presume that American fundamentalist Evangelical Christianity is modal. I can't really blame people for thinking that in the US, especially since uncounted numbers of people have traumatic stories, but it really is not the entire scene and never has been. It is in fact an anomalous outgrowth which happens to be terribly prominent because it's politically favored by a major party in the most powerful country on the planet. I try to remember this any time I see someone condemning religion as a whole.
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Jul 6, 2023 14:46
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i put off responding to aliens so that i could grab sources to cite, and instead i had a lovely evening, went to sleep, and just woke up. suffice it to say there is prior art on this; from what i recall, there is catholic (almost certainly jesuit) writing to the effect that nothing indicates that earth is the exclusive home of life w souls and intellect; and that god may have sent an incarnate messiah to any other worlds because it's not like they would have gotten a news bulletin from the levant a couple millennia ago. the other relevant thing i recall is that there is a lot of islamic scholarship relating to space travel and aliens—the doors of ijtihad dont need to be open for folks to go out and be space opera heroes and faithful muslims. relevantly, djinn already represent a fully sapient intellect that is capable of making moral decisions and being a faithful muslim; there is little reason that similar free will and universal standards there-regarded wouldnt apply to recognizably sapient people who come from another planet, as well. as to the broad general reäction—first contact would be the most significant event in the lifetime of anyone who lived thru it. it would be the most singularly transformative cultural moment in human history. trying to figure out what the on-the-ground general response would be, religious or otherwise, is not imo particularly useful. we do not have the perspective to know what the world would be like in any first contact circumstance.
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Jul 6, 2023 15:19
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Squizzle posted:as to the broad general reäction—first contact would be the most significant event in the lifetime of anyone who lived thru it. it would be the most singularly transformative cultural moment in human history. trying to figure out what the on-the-ground general response would be, religious or otherwise, is not imo particularly useful. we do not have the perspective to know what the world would be like in any first contact circumstance. yeah, there's also so many different kinds of first contact that would radically alter what the dynamic would be - we suddenly see the lights of a fleet decelerating in our telescopes, and we know that They will arrive in 3-400 years - lost/wounded aliens with a broken craft suddenly show up in our solar system as refugees, looking for a safe place to hide - an alien race that looks just likes us makes contact and claims humans and other terrestrial life forms began as an "experiment" that they started several millenia ago - an alien culture reveals that it has been observing humanity for generations and has had agents among us all this time - we observe clear evidence of extra-solar civilizations, perhaps witnessing a large distant space battle between two unknown forces or discovering the remains of one, but its too far away to make contact - we observe clear evidence of extra-terrestrial extra-solar life but only on the level of like forests or algae - we observe clear evidence of some kind of lifeform that completely breaks out understanding of how "life" can develop. e.g. a complex organic lifeform living in the vacuum of space and so many other possibilities. the question of how it would effect human religion depends a lot on the specifics of the contact.
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Jul 6, 2023 19:38
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To be honest I don’t think anything short of actual contact would change things substantially on earth. We have a great ability to compartmentalize away things that don’t impact our day to day life. So if we saw forests on another planet, for example, it would be monumentally cool but I don’t think anything really changes between the day before that and a decade later for society. Seeing clear signs of intelligent life, like observing space flight in another star system, would be bigger but as long as we don’t see FTL travel that can get to us, the aliens are at least a couple lifetimes away from us and I think it would fade into the background for most people. Actual contact would imply one of FTL travel or that they can build generation ships, which would be a major revelation on its own. There are so many scenarios, like you said, that the impact is very difficult to guess.
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Jul 6, 2023 21:20
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If aliens came to earth as missionaries would you convert to their religion
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Jul 6, 2023 21:24
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Killingyouguy! posted:If aliens came to earth as missionaries would you convert to their religion
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Jul 6, 2023 21:28
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I'd hear them out, at least, but I can't promise anything otherwise. Speaking of which... In all the time I've lived on my own, I don't know that I've ever had a Jehovah's Witness at my door. On the other hand, I keep seeing them with their little pamphlets on street corners downtown. Have they shifted gears, decided this is a better approach? Or has that been part of it all along?
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Jul 6, 2023 22:02
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Keromaru5 posted:I'd hear them out, at least, but I can't promise anything otherwise. Their strategy has changed post-pandemic. My mother occasionally gets handwritten letters inviting her to… I think the letter said Bible study? We haven’t seen anybody at the door since quarantine.
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Jul 6, 2023 22:14
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Keromaru5 posted:I'd hear them out, at least, but I can't promise anything otherwise. they've been on street corners with pamphlets for decades, but yeah i think the door-to-door stuff decreased a lot since the pandemic
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Jul 6, 2023 22:18
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My only exposure to the Jehovah's Witnesses has been through the pairs of people sitting outside with a collection of pamphlets, as well as a sign with an offer for a free Bible course. They don't speak to you or acknowledge you, and they generally seem to be very miserable, presumably because they're outside all day. I haven't seen any other branches of Christianity do something like that, is it a part of their faith, like is this how they proselytize? Would the expectation be that you spot them, and then develop an interest in their church and then seek further information?
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Jul 7, 2023 00:30
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two fish posted:My only exposure to the Jehovah's Witnesses has been through the pairs of people sitting outside with a collection of pamphlets, as well as a sign with an offer for a free Bible course. They don't speak to you or acknowledge you, and they generally seem to be very miserable, presumably because they're outside all day. Yes, it's a big part of their faith. I'm sure someone here has more detail than me, but I believe it comes from the fact that it started out as a doomsday-focused religion and the need to warn people. I mean I guess all of Christianity has a sort of doomsday-ness to it when you think about it, but the JW's for many years had specific dates in mind, 1914 was one of the big ones, and then 1975 was the last major one when they thought it would happen. Since it didn't happen, they've shifted focus, but the personal door-to-door intensity has stayed. Mormons also go door to door as missionaries, they travel the world doing so. I've also been personally proselytized to on the street by random hardcore evangelist dudes in Pittsburgh, they were not JW or Mormon and claimed to be part of no sect and that their religion was "straight from the Bible". They seemed to come from deep in Appalachia. More aggressive than the JW's or Mormons. Much harder to get rid of. Creeped me out to be honest. Also here in LA in some neighborhoods there are street preachers, usually Spanish speaking and Catholic, and they don't target individuals like the above. More like they are just delivering sermons to whoever wants to listen. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Jul 7, 2023 |
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Jul 7, 2023 00:54
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Squizzle posted:reäction
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Jul 7, 2023 01:00
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two fish posted:I haven't seen any other branches of Christianity do something like that, is it a part of their faith, like is this how they proselytize? Would the expectation be that you spot them, and then develop an interest in their church and then seek further information? LDS mentioned above but I'll throw in 7th Day Adventist
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Jul 7, 2023 01:08
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I've gotten a couple 7th Day Adventists over the years. All they really did was say hi, invite me to their church, and leave.
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Jul 7, 2023 01:32
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two fish posted:My only exposure to the Jehovah's Witnesses has been through the pairs of people sitting outside with a collection of pamphlets, as well as a sign with an offer for a free Bible course. They don't speak to you or acknowledge you, and they generally seem to be very miserable, presumably because they're outside all day. (Terms might not be accurately translated here, I'm phone-posting from memory and Finnish language sources.) JWs are generally expected to regularily do field work. I don't know how international it is but according to an academic article I found, someone who doesn't participate in it at all is called "idle", so there's some coercion between the lines there. Going door to door or dealing pamphlets are common ways to do it. It usually defines their life to some degree, what with all the scheduling required. Most of the more mainline Christian churches who do street work are some variant of Protestant, Pentecostal or free churches. Generally the older and more established the church, the less pamphlet dealing there is. It kind of depends on what works.
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Jul 7, 2023 01:36
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It is worth mentioning when discussing Jehovah's Witnesses that much of what they do is informed by a belief that Jesus is coming back very, very soon. As was mentioned above, they have historically picked a couple of dates which led to some problems when Jesus didn't physically return as promised. My understanding is that they've since settled on some sort of mystical version of the Second Coming having already started but it is not yet complete. So we are still very much living in the end times as they see it. That's why they take a dim view of educational and occupational attainment. No need for that college degree when Jesus is coming back tomorrow / next month / next year. Better to spend that time trying to save some souls. Same thing for spending extra time at the office trying to get that promotion or raise. Better to make enough to get by and instead go out and spend every spare moment spreading the word of what's coming. In a now deleted version of the end of this post, I said some really unkind things about the system that their leadership has set up, but I think I will listen to the better angels of my nature and leave it at that.
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Jul 7, 2023 02:47
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Seneca advises Lucilius to avoid anger, scorn and hatred. So you did the right thing. I'm a little bit intimidated about the prospect of not eating today (other than the toast I had for breakfast). But I'm just going to think of it like a fun game. e: woah, I'm starting to feel cosmic vibrations. I was nearly laughing at the trees when I was on the park. Prurient Squid fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Jul 7, 2023 |
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Jul 7, 2023 10:25
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Killingyouguy! posted:If aliens came to earth as missionaries would you convert to their religion So God has chosen to reaveaI different aspects of the Divine to you? How interesting! Maybe we can have a chat, and see if we have any common ground? I wiII bring snacks, if you teII me what Earth foods are edibIe and tasty to you
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Jul 7, 2023 14:54
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would an alien obligate carnivore have to devour the incarnate man christ, or could they simply take communion using a meaty host??
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Jul 7, 2023 16:26
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Second coming? Woah man, on our planet we're waiting for the third coming. You guys are so far behind.
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Jul 7, 2023 16:41
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Squizzle posted:would an alien obligate carnivore have to devour the incarnate man christ, or could they simply take communion using a meaty host?? Alright I have to know now: is there a contingent of vegan Catholics who believe in literal transubstantiation and how do they square that circle?
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Jul 7, 2023 16:46
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quiggy posted:Alright I have to know now: is there a contingent of vegan Catholics who believe in literal transubstantiation and how do they square that circle? Most vegans don't consider it a violation of that principle to eat an animal that consented to be eaten.
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Jul 7, 2023 16:55
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Bongo Bill posted:Most vegans don't consider it a violation of that principle to eat an animal that consented to be eaten. Though Hitchhiker’s Guide showed just how disturbing this would be, as to consent an animal would have to be pretty sapient.
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Jul 7, 2023 16:57
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My understanding of the Catholic doctrine is that, by God using His immense magic powers, the wine and wafers become the body and blood of Christ without actually changing any of the physical details of them. Since the only suffering involved is Jesus's, who was clearly doing so intentionally and who is also not dead if I remember the story right, you're good. What I do wonder is the impact on the so called Noahide laws, but I suppose by those rules, whatever witchcraft you claim to be doing doesn't change that you're eating wafers of bread and drinking wine together.
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Jul 7, 2023 16:57
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quiggy posted:Alright I have to know now: is there a contingent of vegan Catholics who believe in literal transubstantiation and how do they square that circle? It is not un-vegan to consume human -- see breast milk.
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Jul 7, 2023 16:58
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