(Thread IKs:
weg, Toxic Mental)
|
HonorableTB posted:putin is a real piece of poo poo This really is in a heavily populated area. My friend had the windows of her apartment shattered by it She's fine but I got sent a panicked video of pitch blackness (power went out) and the sound of a second explosion when it happened Victis fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jul 6, 2023 |
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 19:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 14:48 |
|
|
poverty goat posted:there have been headlines since the war started about prominent russians using back channels to negotiate peace. a lot of good it did so far Abramovitch negotiated the mass exchange of Mariupol defenders, including Azov commanders
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 19:47
|
|
|
On the one hand you have Russia terror bombing civilians. On the other hand you have whiney concern trolls Human Rights Watch calling on the US not to give Ukraine cluster munitions because they might use it to bomb entrenched Russian soldiers: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-russia-should-stop-using-cluster-bombs-human-rights-watch-says-2023-07-06/ What's with all these NGO's (Amnesty as well) having a massive hard on for dunking on a country that's desperately fighting off an authoritarian, borderline genocidal invader?
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 20:02
|
|
|
Dead forum user posted:On the one hand you have Russia terror bombing civilians. Institutional tunnel vision. They've been advocating against "cluster bombs" for so long it's all they know. It's subsumed all analysis of the real world.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 20:05
|
|
|
Dead forum user posted:On the one hand you have Russia terror bombing civilians. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 20:06
|
|
|
Free Thinker really should be in quotes
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 20:08
|
|
|
Toxic Mental posted:Free Thinker really should be in quotes It does have a sheep head so I think taht does the job
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 20:11
|
|
|
Dead forum user posted:On the one hand you have Russia terror bombing civilians. Its unbending principle before reality. At least this time they didn't actively blame Ukraine for making Russia to use cluster munitions on civilian targets. But yes, its really off-putting. One side is fighting against active and ongoing genocide and these people come in tut-tutting them for defending themselves with everything they have at their disposal. Especially in a situation where the enemy is using the same weapon against them without any attempt to limit its usage to military targets. But some people are just that much of an idealistic idiots it basically achieves the exact same output than pearl-clutching concern trolling.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 20:12
|
|
|
I wish we could send all these pearl clutching assholes to a trench on the front and let them see the necessity for themselves.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 20:15
|
|
|
Also, in my experience a lot of NGOs and movements tend to focus their efforts and criticisms on countries and institutions that are more likely to listen (or be vulnerable to criticism) rather than 'waste' effort on countries that won't give the slightest poo poo, regardless of the magnitude of the crime.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 20:17
|
|
|
Tigey posted:Also, in my experience a lot of NGOs and movements tend to focus their efforts and criticisms on countries and institutions that are more likely to listen (or be vulnerable to criticism) rather than 'waste' effort on countries that won't give the slightest poo poo, regardless of the magnitude of the crime. got bad news for them if they think that a nation under existential threat of genocide will give a poo poo about what an ngo says if the munitions keep their country alive another week
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 20:18
|
|
|
Tigey posted:Also, in my experience a lot of NGOs and movements tend to focus their efforts and criticisms on countries and institutions that are more likely to listen (or be vulnerable to criticism) rather than 'waste' effort on countries that won't give the slightest poo poo, regardless of the magnitude of the crime. In cases like this its also a clear decision to side with the Russians; they won't listen, so lets hinder the Ukrainian war effort. ...And that puts them to my list as another NGO I will never, ever give a single penny in the future.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 20:21
|
|
|
HonorableTB posted:https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1676898413630177280?s=20
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 20:25
|
|
|
I mean it's not a very rational criticism - cluster munitions were already in widespread use by both sides (far more by Russia as some posts a fair while ago explained, and they have submunitions that are very deliberately designed to look like toys). The time to complain about them being used was really long ago, and started in Feb 2022. Cluster munitions basically come with scare quotes around them for many people, as an "evil weapon". And as the US is involved, it's very mentally comfortable for some people, as it lets them get back to the normal business of directing their criticism at the US, rather than Russia (which still feels weird for many). It sucks but it's all part of the same hypocrisy this thread regularly rails against.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 20:31
|
|
|
I don't know. I think asking the US not to give cluster munitions and asking Ukraine not to use cluster munitions is the right thing to do. I also think Ukraine is going to use whatever they possibly can get their hands on to try and kick out the temporary occupiers, and rightfully so. And judging Ukraine for doing whatever they can to defeat the Russian military doesn't help anyone. poo poo fuckin sucks, basically. And it is Russia's fault.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 20:37
|
|
|
El Jebus posted:I don't know. I think asking the US not to give cluster munitions and asking Ukraine not to use cluster munitions is the right thing to do. I also think Ukraine is going to use whatever they possibly can get their hands on to try and kick out the temporary occupiers, and rightfully so. And judging Ukraine for doing whatever they can to defeat the Russian military doesn't help anyone. poo poo fuckin sucks, basically. And it is Russia's fault. Well, they could in this case lobby for tightening the Russian economic sanctions, not only for limiting what weapons are given to Ukraine. But alas, they chose their side.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 20:38
|
|
|
Ngo's often have a real "the ends justify the means" baked in that lets them justify awful behavior. You've probably been harrassed by the charity people trying to get money while walking down the street. Wonder how they get people to do that? The post ads promising an "internship at a nonprofit" without saying what you're doing, right before the start of college semesters. College students take them and then realize what they're actually doing but can't quit because they need an internship as a college requirement and can't get another one at that point. The managers involved will still go to their grave thinking they're perfect white saviors.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 20:40
|
|
|
So out of curiosity which one of you is the Warlockracy youtuber? There are far too many SA references in his videos. The channel has videos of the old fallout games and several slav jank games like Stalker, with a certain historical context added as well. Odd place to ask but many of those videos have some small relevance to this war.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 20:50
|
|
|
I really don’t think it’s ideological alignment with Putin that’s driving these NGOs’ behavior. Organizations and individuals can be wrong for many stupid reasons other than “we too believe that the Ukraine is a fake and Nazi country.” (cf. Hanlon’s Razor)
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 20:53
|
|
|
Tigey posted:Also, in my experience a lot of NGOs and movements tend to focus their efforts and criticisms on countries and institutions that are more likely to listen (or be vulnerable to criticism) rather than 'waste' effort on countries that won't give the slightest poo poo, regardless of the magnitude of the crime. an understandable impulse (why waste our resources lobbying people who definitely won't listen), but still frustrating since it obviously plays into the efforts of said countries that won't give the slightest poo poo by giving the impression that they don't or it doesn't matter. Tigey posted:I mean it's not a very rational criticism - cluster munitions were already in widespread use by both sides (far more by Russia as some posts a fair while ago explained, and they have submunitions that are very deliberately designed to look like toys). The time to complain about them being used was really long ago, and started in Feb 2022.  El Jebus posted:I don't know. I think asking the US not to give cluster munitions and asking Ukraine not to use cluster munitions is the right thing to do. I also think Ukraine is going to use whatever they possibly can get their hands on to try and kick out the temporary occupiers, and rightfully so. And judging Ukraine for doing whatever they can to defeat the Russian military doesn't help anyone. poo poo fuckin sucks, basically. And it is Russia's fault. This gets weird because you get into calculus about, like, how many innocents will unexploded ordinance from these cluster munitions kill vs how many will Russia kill in the longer-duration war that lack of availability of these weapons would cause. It's difficult to reason credibly about, apart from the easy outs you identified - cluster munitions are bad because UXO, and it's Russia's fault we're in this position. Personally, in general, I think it's more favorable to deal with mine clearing operations in peacetime than skip that but get more attrition, but I can understand choosing otherwise. However, in this case, since Russia is pretty casual about using its cluster munitions, I think not sending ours doesn't get us out of anything, so if they're more effective for trench clearing than the other available stuff fuckin' have at it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 20:53
|
|
|
Der Kyhe posted:Well, they could in this case lobby for tightening the Russian economic sanctions, not only for limiting what weapons are given to Ukraine. But alas, they chose their side. I agree they could advocate for other things, too! They very clearly did choose their side, which is "please don't use cluster munitions". tiaz posted:This gets weird because you get into calculus about, like, how many innocents will unexploded ordinance from these cluster munitions kill vs how many will Russia kill in the longer-duration war that lack of availability of these weapons would cause. It's difficult to reason credibly about, apart from the easy outs you identified - cluster munitions are bad because UXO, and it's Russia's fault we're in this position. Yeah, it's a hard decision to make either way and I'm glad I don't have to make it. You can't really napkin math the choice of using cluster munitions when your opponent has been using and will continue to use them against you. And it doesn't help that Ukraine has *also* already used cluster munitions, so it isn't like they are suddenly gonna stop because you asked them nicely not to. El Jebus fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Jul 6, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 20:54
|
|
|
El Jebus posted:I agree they could advocate for other things, too! They very clearly did choose their side, which is "please don't use cluster munitions". ... and by actively interfering with the Ukrainian capabilities to defend themselves while silently acknowledging that this means nothing to the Russians, its not a neutral stance by any means.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 20:56
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1677031958075916290 Don't you just love it when propagandists get forced to eat crow even because of misunderstandings?
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 20:58
|
|
|
zone posted:https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1677031958075916290 That sounds like a very blessed movie they're making 
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 21:00
|
|
|
mobby_6kl posted:That sounds like a very blessed movie they're making I wonder.... https://twitter.com/Sprinter99880/status/1654959564595314691
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 21:05
|
|
|
Doesn't this basically put Steven to the propaganda collaborator list similarly as what happened to Nigel Farage after he got money for being pundit for the RT networks? If it does, he has decided to stay in Russia-leaning countries for the rest of his life.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 21:18
|
|
|
If you are fighting a defensive war against a genocidal imperialist power for your peoples' continued survival as an ethnic group with a distinct culture, history, and nation then it seems to reason that any conventional weapon used is an ethical weapon as you would not have needed to use it had you not been invaded, barring something like biological/chemical/nuclear warfare. When the alternative is the partition of your state and eradication of your culture in favor of Russification then by rights you ought to be allowed to defend yourself with anything you can get your hands on because it is the definition of an existential threat
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 21:18
|
|
|
Der Kyhe posted:Doesn't this basically put Steven to the propaganda collaborator list similarly as what happened to Nigel Farage after he got money for being pundit for the RT networks? He was already part of some propaganda films that Russia made early in the war. Don't know how this would change anything.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 21:19
|
|
|
HonorableTB posted:https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1676898413630177280?s=20 Of key note here is FORMER and SECRET being important. Taking bets on what party these former advisors are from.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 21:19
|
|
|
spankmeister posted:He was already part of some propaganda films that Russia made early in the war. Don't know how this would change anything. I don't think they were hitting 3rd parties at that point yet, but yeah he isn't exactly a new to promoting for Putin.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 21:21
|
|
|
Seated Military Operation
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 21:29
|
|
|
weg posted:Seated Military Operation
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 21:30
|
|
|
weg posted:Seated Military Operation I lold
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 21:42
|
|
|
I wonder what some realistic terms are? International recognition that Russia owns the 4 eastern provinces and crimea, cancelling sanctions, guarantees that Ukraine does not enter nato, maybe also some reparations to Russia? I love twitter tankies. Lmao at russia geting reparations considering everything they've done.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 21:56
|
|
|
weg posted:Seated Military Operation 
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 21:57
|
|
|
weg posted:Seated Military Operation
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 22:05
|
|
|
El Jebus posted:*quickly googles current events in Israel and Palestine*... lol you needed to google jared kushner to see what a bad idea that was
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 22:07
|
|
|
Tai posted:I wonder what some realistic terms are? International recognition that Russia owns the 4 eastern provinces and crimea, cancelling sanctions, guarantees that Ukraine does not enter nato, maybe also some reparations to Russia? belgorod people's republic demands its independence from vassalage, let's go full Europa Universalis with it
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 22:09
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:Of key note here is FORMER and SECRET being important. Yeah it's a nothing article.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 22:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 14:48 |
|
|
lavrov spotted
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2023 22:23
|
|