(Thread IKs:
weg, Toxic Mental)
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Tai posted:Nah, I'm not for cluster munitions tbh. It's not something that will make or break this war. If Ukraine kicks out Russia then it won't be because of clusters. They will have problems after though. Ukraine, like Russia, inherited huge stockpiles of cluster munitions from the USSR and has been using them since day one of this war. Yes, cluster munitions cause problems due to unexploded ordinance, but guess what, Ukraine chose to use them on their own soil anyway. Because you know what is more dangerous than unexploded ordinance from cluster bombs? Exploding ordinance fired by Russian artillery at Ukrainians. Cluster bombs are notably extremely good at counter artillery fire, which seems to be the #1 priority of the Ukrainian military these days. Maybe we, who are comfortable and safe in countries not being invaded by Russia, should just respect Ukraine's wishes to use cluster bombs inside their own border to defend themselves. Ukraine is a grown up adult country and can make it's own choices and doesn't need us to hold their hand.
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Jul 7, 2023 16:29
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| # ? May 30, 2024 23:12 |
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They are undergoing intense human pyramids training to better integrate themselves with the locals.
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Jul 7, 2023 16:29
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Keeping cluster munitions from Ukraine isn't protecting future victims in a significant way anyway because Russia has mined the the poo poo out of everything. It's all going to have to be demined and searched and removed and Ukraine will be dealing with unexploded bullshit for the next century once they even get a chance to get started. Better to give them what they need now to push Russia out and then they can move on to the rebuild and endless cleanup phase. Putin is a real piece of poo poo.
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Jul 7, 2023 16:36
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Sitting safe and warm, thousands of miles away from any conflict, tsking humanitarianly at a country trying desperately not to be genocided.
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Jul 7, 2023 16:39
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Geisladisk posted:Maybe we, who are comfortable and safe in countries not being invaded by Russia, should just respect Ukraine's wishes to use cluster bombs inside their own border to defend themselves. Ukraine is a grown up adult country and can make it's own choices and doesn't need us to hold their hand. MAYBE Ukraine should take my opinions into account.
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Jul 7, 2023 16:41
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Neddy Seagoon posted:https://twitter.com/WarMonitors/status/1677066491076702208 Dude needs a a shield with a handy reminder written on it 
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Jul 7, 2023 16:45
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Homer: "Yes that is what the bullets are made of" *puts target in crosshair*
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Jul 7, 2023 16:48
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Geisladisk posted:Ukraine, like Russia, inherited huge stockpiles of cluster munitions from the USSR and has been using them since day one of this war. Right, but right now, they're talking about giving US cluster ammunition to Ukraine. Which is a different question, because the civilian deaths those will cause are also a result of American choices. And I can understand that people, especially with folks who have a background that includes awareness of how hard such things can gently caress a people up long term like Ilham Omar might go 'Nope, bad enough we even HAVE that poo poo, don't want it fired' And just because Russia does far, far more damage than the Ukranian army, even if they shot all the cluster ammunition, doesn't really mean it doesn't protect them at all. If in one year 100 civilians die due to Russian fuckery, and 5 civilians die due to cluster ammunitions, that's 5 people that would have been alive if it weren't used. Measure that up to the good that it will do if Ukraine gets to gently caress up Russian artillery better is I think not an 'easy one'. On another note, Ukraine has attacked Russian soil. (And why not? This is a war, Russia can't expect Ukraine to not shoot at soldiers just because they happen to be on the other side of the line) but that means that Ukraine might also at some point fire cluster ammunition in a place where they DON'T have their own civilians, and it's going to be Russian civilians that'll die. Putin is a real piece of poo poo though. He should just pull back to the 1991 borders and none of this would be an issue.
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Jul 7, 2023 16:50
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Shogeton posted:It's one of those 'I can see why you would do that even if I don't agree'. Yeah, I'm in this camp.
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Jul 7, 2023 16:52
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Biden just sitting there beside a stack of papers authorizing the transfer of the very new very cool Chobham encrusted B2 variant that can’t be shot down and he just keeps showing off new pen spin techniques he learned on Threads last night rather than actually signing anything.
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Jul 7, 2023 16:57
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IAEA update on state of  whole press release
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Jul 7, 2023 16:58
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I read this line at noon on the first friday of the month - my air raid sirens test day and I didn't like it. 
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Jul 7, 2023 17:01
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Geisladisk posted:Ukraine, like Russia, inherited huge stockpiles of cluster munitions from the USSR and has been using them since day one of this war. How dare you suggest that my twitter opinions are not 100% correct in all situations. We are posting enemies now.
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Jul 7, 2023 17:12
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Shogeton posted:Right, but right now, they're talking about giving US cluster ammunition to Ukraine. Which is a different question, because the civilian deaths those will cause are also a result of American choices. And I can understand that people, especially with folks who have a background that includes awareness of how hard such things can gently caress a people up long term like Ilham Omar might go 'Nope, bad enough we even HAVE that poo poo, don't want it fired' Yeah, I'm kinda with that and can understand both arguments. The US supplying cluster bombs to Ukraine in the defense of its own territory cannot and should not be compared to the US dropping cluster bombs in its invasions of Iraq or Vietnam. However, it's a weapon with with an extreme and intrinsic tendency to kill innocents long after the conflict ends and the US bears some of that responsibility for supplying munitions even if Ukrainians are the ones pulling the trigger. If it's not likely to decide the outcome of the war it's valid to say you don't want to contribute to that. However, in that case, weapons with comparable tactical value in the immediate conflict but with less long-term collateral damage to civilians are a sound counterproposal.
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Jul 7, 2023 17:21
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this sort of thing is inevitable 
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Jul 7, 2023 17:29
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Killer robot posted:However, in that case, weapons with comparable tactical value in the immediate conflict but with less long-term collateral damage to civilians are a sound counterproposal.
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Jul 7, 2023 17:34
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https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-fake-politico-article-russia-ukraine-081556177984quote:CLAIM: A screenshot shows a Politico article about the war in Ukraine titled, “20 000 000 lives for the sake of freedom,” which reported that Ukraine will need to sacrifice millions of lives to win its war against Russia. 
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Jul 7, 2023 17:42
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Anders posted:If I understand it right, the US are sending an old type of cluster bombs with 2,something % of having some duds. They, if I understood/remember correctly, are only relevant now because UAF already have the equipment to use them and that the US were supposed to decommission them soon We only have old ones: we have (correctly, imo) forgone their development and use.
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Jul 7, 2023 17:43
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Shogeton posted:Right, but right now, they're talking about giving US cluster ammunition to Ukraine. Which is a different question, because the civilian deaths those will cause are also a result of American choices. And I can understand that people, especially with folks who have a background that includes awareness of how hard such things can gently caress a people up long term like Ilham Omar might go 'Nope, bad enough we even HAVE that poo poo, don't want it fired' It is true that cluster bombs will inevitably cause harm long after this is over, but as you said that harm needs to be weighed against the good they will do. Shortening this war is the most humanitarian thing to do in this situation, and the best way to do that is to provide Ukraine with all the weapons they possibly want, up to but not including WMDs. If providing cluster bombs to Ukraine shortens the war by even a few days, the good they've done outweighs the harm.
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Jul 7, 2023 17:44
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Shogeton posted:Putin is a real piece of poo poo though. He should just pull back to the 1991 borders and none of this would be an issue. No matter how each of us feels about the cluster munitions question, there's one thing every poster in this thread can agree with: Putin is a huge piece of poo poo.
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Jul 7, 2023 17:44
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I'm against the US sending cluster munitions to the Ukraine because when they finally arrive in Germany next August someone's going to need to dust the cobwebs off our 30 M1 Abrams to make room.
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Jul 7, 2023 17:47
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Neddy Seagoon posted:https://twitter.com/WarMonitors/status/1677066491076702208 A regular machine gun with tracer rounds would probably work better since you could see where your line of fire is going and lead the drones.
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Jul 7, 2023 17:50
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this cluster munition debate is kind of a weird variant of the trolley problem and it is fascinating to see people work their way through it i don't really have an opinion on it (my opinion is "i am way too loving dumb to form an opinion here") so i ain't judging anyone for anything just so we're crystal clear
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Jul 7, 2023 18:04
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Jul 7, 2023 18:08
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Shogeton posted:Right, but right now, they're talking about giving US cluster ammunition to Ukraine. Which is a different question, because the civilian deaths those will cause are also a result of American choices. And I can understand that people, especially with folks who have a background that includes awareness of how hard such things can gently caress a people up long term like Ilham Omar might go 'Nope, bad enough we even HAVE that poo poo, don't want it fired' For people who want the cluster bombs to be sent, they can just reply "And if in one year 1000 civilians die to not using cluster ammunitions, then that's 995 people who could have been saved", those what-ifs aren't a good reply.
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Jul 7, 2023 18:14
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Kchama posted:For people who want the cluster bombs to be sent, they can just reply "And if in one year 1000 civilians die to not using cluster ammunitions, then that's 995 people who could have been saved", those what-ifs aren't a good reply. As someone said, it has shades of a Trolely problem. Inaction (don't send cluster ammunition) means that civilians die, but it is through the actions and the responsibility of another. Sending the the cluster ammunition, there's good odds that it'll increase the succes of the war on Ukraine's side, which is good for Ukraine, and gives Russia's less chance to commit crimes on civilians.... but it also means that you actively took part in an action that killed civilians. So it's not just a matter of arguing the facts (how dangerous are they to civilians VS how effective are they against Russiai) but also some moral questions that people have been arguing about forever. (To what degree it justified to actively cause harm to innocents, if you believe a greater amount of innocents can be saved?)
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Jul 7, 2023 18:24
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It needs to spin.
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Jul 7, 2023 18:28
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https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1677290713749377027 POCCNR has demanded construction companies that took government projects to find 20-30 volunteers apiece to send to the front line or lose their lucrative contracts. You know, just another thing the side that's totally winning does.
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Jul 7, 2023 18:31
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If we agreed decades ago that cluster bombs are too dangerous, then simply provide the Ukraine with the safer alternative that we certainly developed.
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Jul 7, 2023 18:36
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Agreed. Also just send them ATACMS and all of our thousands of spare M1 Abrams and the supplies needed to keep them running because why not, we aren't using them or gonna use them anyways.
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Jul 7, 2023 18:37
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zone posted:https://twitter.com/randymot4/status/1677244336755310593 Yeah, a while ago.
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Jul 7, 2023 18:40
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zone posted:https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1677290713749377027  bribes in the form of mobiks
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Jul 7, 2023 18:45
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Toxic Mental posted:Agreed. Also just send them ATACMS and all of our thousands of spare M1 Abrams and the supplies needed to keep them running because why not, we aren't using them or gonna use them anyways. Absolutely! Not often those weapons will see a more ethical use than help defend Ukraine.
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Jul 7, 2023 18:46
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Warm und Fuzzy posted:If we agreed decades ago that cluster bombs are too dangerous, then simply provide the Ukraine with the safer alternative that we certainly developed. We are doing that. The 155mm and GMLRS rounds that release a fuckton of tungsten ball-bearings is the replacement to the DPICM rounds. DPICM keeps the artillery lads fed to support offensive operations against the Russians AND provides more explosives for the drones that are used also.
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Jul 7, 2023 18:50
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Dwesa posted:
If your construction company is able to hand over a single Psyker for putins tithe fleet is that counted as 10 or 100 mobliks?
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Jul 7, 2023 18:53
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CoffeeQaddaffi posted:We are doing that. The 155mm and GMLRS rounds that release a fuckton of tungsten ball-bearings is the replacement to the DPICM rounds. DPICM keeps the artillery lads fed to support offensive operations against the Russians AND provides more explosives for the drones that are used also. Oh, I forgot those. Those are utterly terrifying to be sure, but unlike cluster munitions only to people in the active combat zone rather than to people in what was an active combat zone years ago.
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Jul 7, 2023 18:57
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The fact that they gave the IAEA access is a good sign they are sending a message to interested parties. I mean, they could always be trying to set them up, but its unlikely.
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Jul 7, 2023 19:04
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how many 155 shells would Ukraine need to meet or exceed rus arty advantage, and why don't they already have them? I'm sure there is a given reason and I'm guessing it is stupid / lazy give floods of shells, that ought to be trivial, and the atacms. are those himars shotgun warheads not right for trench blasting? maybe supply a lot more of those edit this was partly answered
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Jul 7, 2023 19:06
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Zippy the Bummer posted:how many 155 shells would Ukraine need to meet or exceed rus arty advantage, and why don't they already have them? I'm sure there is a given reason and I'm guessing it is stupid / lazy They need more 155mm shells than can be made currently. The real takeaway from this war is "lol the west has dogshit munitions production capacity for what a peer war requires" As far as giving from existing stocks, the US's position is that it's maintaining a certain level of reserves for any potential conflict, and Ukraine will get what we can spare. Which, to be fair, is still a hell of a lot.
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Jul 7, 2023 19:13
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| # ? May 30, 2024 23:12 |
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Something something escalation!
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Jul 7, 2023 19:15
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