[Ukraine] Missing in Action: Western Minds

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mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

That's just how you rush out of spawn in red dragon or ALB to cap one of the high ticket points early.

# ? Jul 9, 2023 04:39

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# ? May 23, 2024 11:37

BearsBearsBears: Aug 4, 2022

gradenko_2000 posted:

https://twitter.com/urthofthenewsun/status/1677258857586851840?t=BGMjZGRvH1PBAtZMiv4eXw&s=19

Is the other guy in that video using a WW2 era Degtyaryov machine gun?

# ? Jul 9, 2023 04:40

fizzy: Dec 2, 2022; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Bad news for Russia's propagandist attempts to demonize Ukrainian nationalism - People who call themselves Banderites do not share his ideologies and probably have never read any of his writings, and the nationalists who pogromed the Jews of Lviv weren't out to exterminate, they were out to combat their political enemies

https://kyivindependent.com/ukraines-true-history-how-nationalist-movements-paved-ukraines-way-to-freedom/

How nationalist movements paved Ukraine's way to freedom
July 7, 2023 6:50 PM
11 min read

...

And the first name that comes to mind when discussing this period is that of Stepan Bandera (1909-1959), one of Ukraine's most controversial figures, who is celebrated or hated – depending on who's talking.

Motyl believes that's because Bandera was both made into a symbol of the nationalist movement by the Ukrainians and because he was a threat to the Soviets, which made him very easy to demonize.

However, his influence over modern-day nationalism and Ukrainian society has been greatly exaggerated by Russia to discredit post-EuroMaidan Ukraine, scholars argue.

"Nobody cares about the real Bandera," Yermolenko said. "Nobody reads his texts anymore, nobody believes in this hierarchical and far-right ideology, which existed in the 1930s."

That's not Ukraine's current ideology, he said. "Ukraine's current ideology is much more horizontal, dependent on specific communities, specific people, much more decentralized, much more self-organized."

And it's clear that people who call themselves Banderites do not share his ideologies and probably have never read any of his writings, Yermolenko said.

"It's like wearing a Che Guevara T-shirt without knowing who Che Guevara was. (It's) just because it looks nice, and (Bandera is) a symbol of the underground resistance to the Soviets."

...

In Russia, Ukrainian nationalism is associated with anti-Semitism, and the Kremlin's propagandists often point to the Lviv pogrom of 1941, an outbreak of anti-Jewish violence that began on the afternoon of June 30 and ended on the evening of July 1.

Instigated by the German occupiers, the wave of violence saw the spontaneous participation of the non-Jewish local civilian population and officers of the newly formed OUN-B.

The discovery in city prisons of the bodies of Soviet prisoners, victims of mass shootings committed by the NKVD (People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs), the forerunner to the KGB (Soviet Security Service), during the first days of the war, was used by Nazi propaganda: Lviv Jews were blamed for the NKVD shootings, which resulted in the pogrom.

For Motyl, however, calling the nationalist movement anti-Semitic is a crude generalization, as it wasn't anti-Semitic in its ideology and practice.

"Obviously, there were anti-Semitic Ukrainians," he said, adding that some Ukrainian nationalists collaborated with the Nazis.

But for many Ukrainians, the issue wasn't racial but rather political, Motyl said. "The question was: Are they, or are they not, loyal to Ukraine?"

"The (nationalists) weren't out to exterminate, they were out to combat their political enemies," he said while acknowledging the presence of anti-Semites in the ranks of the OUN.

"To put it a little crudely, but not inaccurately: Ukrainians were peasants and Jews were kind of the middle class and the upper class were either Poles or Russians," he said.

When the peasant class rebels, it tends to attack the middle class first, before the larger authority, Motyl said, which explains the animosity against some of the Jewish population at the time.

# ? Jul 9, 2023 04:43

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Danann posted:

can u believe that the russians also manage all of these things

https://twitter.com/Tatarigami_UA/status/1677747834588737536

almost as if they've retvrned to divisional units

I think for people who don't work in the military, or otherwise have a hard time understanding how The Good Idea Fairy can transform a very sensible concept, like Human Terrain, COIN, whatever, into something that loses its original context and meaning even as it takes on idk cultish proportions and becomes a dogma repeated in every power point, this is a very good case study.

I am not doing a particularly good job explaining the social or institutional dynamics, but flatly, a well reasoned paper that made astute observations of Russian operations in Georgia and Ukraine was warped by the corporate culture of Big Army so that all of its key principles were, is exaggerated the right word? I think the concepts in the paper were sound, I think it was a very fair study of the BTG, building on previous work on Russian Army modernization. Somehow each of those points became dogmatic - and if and how that differs from doctrinal, I couldn't say.

For example, take the theory that the Russian irregular infantry screen would likely break off an engagement before professional forces, causing the BTG to withdraw, which was true enough in Kharkov. This seems to vindicate the theory for defeating Russian formations. The firepower-heavy BTGs would give ground, even to a lighter force, if their (irregular, militia) infantry screen was pierced, as the (Russian, regular army) armour and artillery batteries came under threat. I think that's not only reasonable, but observable.

It seems to me that somewhere along the line that sound doctrine became a dogmatic belief (again, the difference and social mechanics of the transformation, I'm shaky on), that any light force can cause any Russian formation to withdraw because any pressure on the infantry element would cause them to either break, or would penetrate them and cause the armour and artillery to pull back. Well, what if the infantry are Russian, regular army, and motor rifles with far more firepower in BMPs, BTRs and other weapons than their Ukrainian counterparts? The actual mechanism that allowed a motivated light infantry force to overwhelm the BTG is missing, and so there's no reason why a lightly armed attacker would be able to negate the huge firepower advantage and succeed.

Does that make sense? I almost feel bad for the author of that paper because, he was right, but the Good Idea Fairy really hosed this up and has gotten, idk, tens of thousands? of people killed by repeating his words without any of the meaning.

e: Even the belief that a well-trained, equipped, motivated BLUFOR - clearly the Ukrainian Army of 2021 was what people had in mind - would be able to beat up the irregular infantry screen and disciplined and determined enough to bear the brunt of Russian fires for the short time they were exposed to them before the attack succeeded and the guns pulled out, that's reasonable. That any Ukrainian including barely trained, barely equipped conscripts would succeed... why? Why would a Russian Motor Rifle Battalion, in the line now with full bayonet strength, BMP-3s, whatever, why would they pull back when a bunch of conscripts on pickup trucks blunder into the minefield ahead of their positions? Why would the Ukrainian infantry component succeed given that they are no longer superior to the facing infantry, as they would be against irregular militias?

Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 05:05 on Jul 9, 2023

# ? Jul 9, 2023 05:00

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

fizzy posted:

the nationalists who pogromed the Jews of Lviv weren't out to exterminate, they were out to combat their political enemies

Is the Kiev Independent just publishing outright Judeo-Bolshevism in English now, and nobody notices or cares?

# ? Jul 9, 2023 05:08

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

fizzy posted:

Bad news for Russia's propagandist attempts to demonize Ukrainian nationalism - People who call themselves Banderites do not share his ideologies and probably have never read any of his writings, and the nationalists who pogromed the Jews of Lviv weren't out to exterminate, they were out to combat their political enemies

https://kyivindependent.com/ukraines-true-history-how-nationalist-movements-paved-ukraines-way-to-freedom/

But for many Ukrainians, the issue wasn't racial but rather political, Motyl said. "The question was: Are they, or are they not, loyal to Ukraine?"

"The (nationalists) weren't out to exterminate, they were out to combat their political enemies," he said while acknowledging the presence of anti-Semites in the ranks of the OUN.

"To put it a little crudely, but not inaccurately: Ukrainians were peasants and Jews were kind of the middle class and the upper class were either Poles or Russians," he said.

When the peasant class rebels, it tends to attack the middle class first, before the larger authority, Motyl said, which explains the animosity against some of the Jewish population at the time.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_J._Motyl

quote:

Motyl is the author of eight academic books and editor or co-editor of over fifteen volumes.[5] Motyl has written extensively on the Soviet Union, Ukraine, revolutions, nations and nationalism, and empires.[6] All his work is highly conceptual and theoretical, attempting to ground political science in a firm philosophical base, while simultaneously concluding that all theories are imperfect and that theoretical pluralism is inevitable. In Imperial Ends (2001), he posited a theoretical framework for examining the structure of empires as a political structure.[7] Motyl describes three types of imperial structures: continuous, discontinuous, and hybrid.[8] Motyl also posits varying degrees of empire: formal, informal, and hegemonic. He discussed the Russian example in an earlier book, The Post Soviet Nations.[9] [10]

In 2008�2014, he collaborated with former Andy Warhol Superstar Ultra Violet on a play entitled Andy vs. Adolf, which attempted to explore the similarities and differences between Warhol and Hitler. Although two readings of the play took place, the work was never produced. Motyl subsequently described his working relationship with Ultra Violet in an essay in the magazine 34th Parallel.[citation needed]

In a review of his novel The Jew Who Was Ukrainian, Michael Johnson wrote in The American Spectator:

quote:
Protagonist Volodymyr Frauenzimmer was born of a rape at the end of World War II, when his mother was a Ukrainian Auschwitz guard who hates Jews and his father a Stalinist thug and Jew who hates Ukrainians. They married but lived in separate rooms and rarely spoke to each other... Alexander Motyl was clearly having great fun when he wrote his latest book, The Jew Who Was Ukrainian, a comic novel with half-serious historical underpinnings. It manages to amuse and challenge without losing its headlong momentum into the realm of absurdist literature.[12]

# ? Jul 9, 2023 05:13

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

# ? Jul 9, 2023 05:20

OctaMurk: Jun 21, 2013

BearsBearsBears posted:

I also saw videos of a guy hitting a petal mine with just a long stick, a tire with a rope tied around it, and people just using long-handled brooms to sweep them out of the way.

Ah, so thats why its called minesweeping

# ? Jul 9, 2023 05:23

BearsBearsBears: Aug 4, 2022

Frosted Flake posted:

It seems to me that somewhere along the line that sound doctrine became a dogmatic belief (again, the difference and social mechanics of the transformation, I'm shaky on), that any light force can cause any Russian formation to withdraw because any pressure on the infantry element would cause them to either break, or would penetrate them and cause the armour and artillery to pull back. Well, what if the infantry are Russian, regular army, and motor rifles with far more firepower in BMPs, BTRs and other weapons than their Ukrainian counterparts? The actual mechanism that allowed a motivated light infantry force to overwhelm the BTG is missing, and so there's no reason why a lightly armed attacker would be able to negate the huge firepower advantage and succeed.

There was a quote that was something like this but I'm having trouble finding it. I probably read it from one of your posts.
"A sound tactic in the morning is folly by the afternoon" -Napoleon?

# ? Jul 9, 2023 05:29

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

fizzy posted:

But for many Ukrainians, the issue wasn't racial but rather political, Motyl said. "The question was: Are they, or are they not, loyal to Ukraine?"

"The (nationalists) weren't out to exterminate, they were out to combat their political enemies," he said while acknowledging the presence of anti-Semites in the ranks of the OUN.

"To put it a little crudely, but not inaccurately: Ukrainians were peasants and Jews were kind of the middle class and the upper class were either Poles or Russians," he said.

Rootless cosmopolitans you say? Concerning.

# ? Jul 9, 2023 05:35

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

look sometimes you just get a lil' too political and genocides happen, what can you do?

# ? Jul 9, 2023 05:36

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

Danann posted:

https://twitter.com/Tatarigami_UA/status/1677747817299824641

when your only battleplan is that the enemy runs away in terror and doesn't shoot back

So do the minefields just turn themselves off out of patriotism first?

# ? Jul 9, 2023 05:37

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Frosted Flake posted:

I think for people who don't work in the military, or otherwise have a hard time understanding how The Good Idea Fairy can transform a very sensible concept, like Human Terrain, COIN, whatever, into something that loses its original context and meaning even as it takes on idk cultish proportions and becomes a dogma repeated in every power point, this is a very good case study.

It's just, if you say "the Ukrainians don't dismount their infantry and stay in column formation to maintain high speed so they can drive past the Russian defenses faster", and you don't know any better, you're inclined to believe that that's a good thing, and that it's a tactic that will work, because you wouldn't know how it would be (easily) countered, because your source of information either doesn't mention it at all or handwaves it away

# ? Jul 9, 2023 05:37

BEAR GRYLLZ: Jul 30, 2006; I have strong erections for Israel.
Strong, pathetic erections.

fizzy posted:

And it's clear that people who call themselves Banderites do not share his ideologies and probably have never read any of his writings, Yermolenko said.

"It's like wearing a Che Guevara T-shirt without knowing who Che Guevara was. (It's) just because it looks nice, and (Bandera is) a symbol of the underground resistance to the Soviets."

https://twitter.com/getfiscal/status/1507572692601483268

# ? Jul 9, 2023 05:38

Homeless Friend: Jul 16, 2007

fizzy posted:

Bad news for Russia's propagandist attempts to demonize Ukrainian nationalism - People who call themselves Banderites do not share his ideologies and probably have never read any of his writings, and the nationalists who pogromed the Jews of Lviv weren't out to exterminate, they were out to combat their political enemies

poggerom

# ? Jul 9, 2023 05:39

DancingShade: Jul 26, 2007; by Fluffdaddy

Look everyone just because the Ukranians are marching up and down the streets in full SS uniforms, covered in tattoos, screaming "death to the jews!" doesn't mean they actually mean it. That's just Russian disinformation talking.

# ? Jul 9, 2023 05:51

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

how could ukrainians know about the nazis, ukraine wasnt even around when the nazis were alive

# ? Jul 9, 2023 05:55

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

gradenko_2000 posted:

It's just, if you say "the Ukrainians don't dismount their infantry and stay in column formation to maintain high speed so they can drive past the Russian defenses faster", and you don't know any better, you're inclined to believe that that's a good thing, and that it's a tactic that will work, because you wouldn't know how it would be (easily) countered, because your source of information either doesn't mention it at all or handwaves it away

It's a good thing and the tactic will work if it is the army you spent 7 years training for that exact mission, and your opponents are militias, but those are the critical details that need to be mentioned and can't be hand waved away because they are what allow you to fight through defences before getting clobbered by fires, so fast in fact that you don't have to dismount or even break from a column. I guess what I'm saying is exactly the wrong emphasis has been placed here.

It sort of reminds me of the Germans in Sicily and Italy in 1943 where they would do what they had done on the Russian front and just get obliterated by the Western Allies, who could call in fighter bombers when they saw them massing tanks for a counterattack or something like that, which they could get away with in Russia and so had become SOP without a second thought. Or, in 1944-45 where on both fronts the Germans were doing things that might have worked against the French Army of 1940, but had no chance in hell of succeeding then, particularly with teenagers and old men on bicycles instead of the absolute pinnacle of the Panzer arm.

# ? Jul 9, 2023 06:08

fizzy: Dec 2, 2022; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

DancingShade posted:

Look everyone just because the Ukranians are marching up and down the streets in full SS uniforms, covered in tattoos, screaming "death to the jews!" doesn't mean they actually mean it. That's just Russian disinformation talking.

The article makes it abundantly clear, tankie, that the issue wasn't racial but rather political, that "The (nationalists) weren't out to exterminate, they were out to combat their political enemies", and that "Ukrainians were peasants and Jews were kind of the middle class and the upper class were either Poles or Russians".

# ? Jul 9, 2023 06:17

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Frosted Flake posted:

I think for people who don't work in the military, or otherwise have a hard time understanding how The Good Idea Fairy can transform a very sensible concept, like Human Terrain, COIN, whatever, into something that loses its original context and meaning even as it takes on idk cultish proportions and becomes a dogma repeated in every power point, this is a very good case study.

[...]

why? Why would a Russian Motor Rifle Battalion, in the line now with full bayonet strength, BMP-3s, whatever, why would they pull back when a bunch of conscripts on pickup trucks blunder into the minefield ahead of their positions? Why would the Ukrainian infantry component succeed given that they are no longer superior to the facing infantry, as they would be against irregular militias?

i think people look at powerpoints and military "systems" and lose sight of the culture of different armies which haven't changed a whole lot in 200 years. armies do change radically but they also don't change at all. so the russian army is still full of officers who are complete gently caress-up idiot criminal morons who are fat and they steal and would just drink themselves to death if they didn't have a job as an "officer." they're parasites who will just mooch and profit. they will screw up an offensive because that requires the officers to be competent and not sell the gasoline off beforehand. there's a reason why stalin liquidated tens of thousands of them. but the average russian soldier in a trench or foxhole will fight to the death and not even be scared, so they have +10 bonus on the defense. they won't move forward on their own, but the won't fall backwards either.

why would they run away? because they've been beaten? but what if they "don't know when they're beaten?" even if they didn't have BMP-3s or whatever. they'd just sit there and shoot at you until they die. that's a huge problem for the ukrainians. it's much easier to attack an enemy who knows when he's beaten so he runs away. during the crimean war -- which was a huge disaster for the russian army -- the british cavalry would violently charge (while screaming like maniacs) into the russians and do a ton of damage to their cavalry (who wouldn't even move their horses) and overrun the artillery and massacre those guys, then charge into an infantry square, and it would kinda "break" but then the soldiers would just... not run away. they'd just start poking at the cavalry with their bayonets and the british were like "wait... no.. ouch! you're supposed to run away... you can't just stand there while we're charging into you... hey! ow!" and then the british would have to break off, because the russian infantry didn't do what they were "supposed to do."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U27A54k8M74&t=330s

british military culture otoh is aggressive attack that seems lunatic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKchwAWMpDA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxFgSmR0i3A

quote:

In May, 2004, a detachment from the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders surprised a force of 100 insurgents near Al Amara, Iraq with a bayonet charge. British casualties were light, but nearly 28 guerrillas were killed.

BrutalistMcDonalds has issued a correction as of 06:43 on Jul 9, 2023

# ? Jul 9, 2023 06:23

Pistol_Pete: Sep 15, 2007; Oven Wrangler

Presented without comment, except to say that this is in the leading 'progressive' newspaper of the UK:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2023/jul/08/ukraine-nato-must-step-in-to-stop-russia

The Guardian posted:

Defeat for Ukraine would be a global disaster. Nato must finally step in to stop Russia

European allies are split over when to offer Nato membership to Kyiv. The bigger question is: are they are doing enough now to help Ukraine?

The pressing question of Ukraine�s membership is expected to dominate this week�s pivotal summit of 31 Nato states in Vilnius, Lithuania�s capital. Volodymyr Zelenskiy knows a gold-embossed official invite is unlikely to arrive while his country is still at war with Russia. But Ukraine�s leader is urging US president Joe Biden and alliance leaders to take immediate �concrete steps�, including security guarantees, a roadmap and timeline. Zelenskiy argues that would boost morale and send an implacable message to Vladimir Putin.

Zelenskiy is right. Like Finland, Ukraine�s accession should be fast-tracked. Yet important though this issue is, Nato faces a far bigger question this week: whether it is doing enough to ensure Kyiv wins the war � or at least, doesn�t lose.

There�s a risk, if the current counteroffensive produces no breakthrough, weapons supplies run short, a new winter energy crisis strikes and western public support drops further, that Zelenskiy will be forced into negotiations � even into trading territory for peace. Secret, informal US-Russia talks are already under way. If Ukraine were already a Nato member, as promised 15 years ago, all this would not be happening.

Yet even now, Biden is refusing to go beyond beefed-up, long-term �security commitments�. Rishi Sunak says vaguely that Ukraine�s �rightful place� is in Nato. France�s president, Emmanuel Macron, is trying to have it both ways, as usual. Germany�s reliably insipid chancellor, Olaf Scholz, won�t discuss Kyiv�s membership until the war is over.

They claim to be acting responsibly. But this too-familiar milksoppery, which unnecessarily and unwisely restricts Nato�s actions, is actually rooted in American and west European fears that Putin, provoked, might attack the west.

This is such facile thinking. Even when sober and with the wind behind it, Russia�s blundering army could not beat Ukraine�s 2nd XI. For all his threats, Putin fears Russia-Nato conflict, too. For him, it would be political and military suicide.

The view from Nato�s east is thankfully more robust. �I hear a lot [of countries] saying that we shouldn�t do this or that because it provokes Putin or Russia and especially to use nuclear weapons,� Kaja Kallas, Estonia�s prime minister, said last week. �Those threats are to intimidate us. The definition of terrorism is to make us afraid so we refrain from the decisions we would otherwise make. And this is what they [Russia] are trying to do.�

East European Nato members, clubbed together as the newly-formed �Bucharest Nine�, issued a stirring call to arms last month, insisting that beating back Russian aggression was �the only way to restore peace and the rules-based order in Europe�.

The nine � Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania and Slovakia � all joined Nato after the 1991 Soviet collapse. They urged a �new political track that will lead to Ukraine�s membership� once conditions allow�. �We should not hesitate to take bolder decisions because otherwise the Putin regime will decide that the western allies are too weak (and when) pushed to the corner, they will surrender,� Lithuania�s president and summit host, Gitanas Nauseda, said.

The main objection to this argument was summarised by the former US Nato ambassador Ivo Daalder. �The problem confronting Nato countries is that as long as the conflict continues, bringing Ukraine into the alliance is tantamount to joining the war,� he warned.

But there are precedents. West Germany gained Nato protection in 1955 even though, like Ukraine, it was in dispute over occupied sovereign territory � held by East Germany, a Soviet puppet. In similar fashion, Nato�s defensive umbrella could reasonably be extended to cover the roughly 85% of Ukrainian territory Kyiv currently controls.

That would provide enhanced air, missile and drone defence without �joining the war�. It would also allow a Nato military response if Russian forces, based in occupied territory or Black Sea waters, chose to launch additional, criminal attacks on civilians, like that which killed seven people in Lviv on Thursday.

Anders Rasmussen, the former Nato secretary-general, recently raised the prospect of Poland and the Baltic states sending ground troops to help fight Russian forces on Ukrainian soil � if Nato as a whole failed to take a bolder line.

�I think the Poles would seriously consider going in and assemble a coalition of the willing if Ukraine doesn�t get anything in Vilnius,� Rasmussen said. �The Poles feel that for too long western Europe did not listen to their warnings against the true Russian mentality.�

That latter view is strongly endorsed by A Wess Mitchell, a former US assistant secretary of state, who maintains that some west European governments, prey to �old taboos against antagonising Russia�, still don�t really get it.

Although arms are flowing to Kyiv, promises to boost eastern flank defences �remain largely unfulfilled�, Mitchell wrote. Since the start of the war, for example, France�s troop presence in Nato�s east has risen �from 300 to 969� and Italy�s from 350 to 385�.

In contrast, �Nato�s eastern members have undertaken historic build-ups that will see Poland soon possess more tanks than all of western Europe combined�. Meanwhile, the US troop presence has risen from 5,000 to about 24,000.

Avoiding splits over Ukraine�s (and Sweden�s) membership is important. Infinitely more important is that all Nato countries fully grasp the wider implications of a Ukrainian failure to repel Russian aggression.

If that happened, eastern and central Europe, the Nordic region and the Balkans would be destabilised. Nato would be forced on to a permanent war footing. International law would be shredded. A precedent would be set for China over Taiwan.

Ukraine would effectively be partitioned. And a gloating Putin and his gang, escaping justice, would be free to do it all again, there or somewhere else. So no more conditions, cavils and clever caveats, please. Nato must unleash its considerable power to ensure Ukrainian victory.

# ? Jul 9, 2023 06:23

DancingShade: Jul 26, 2007; by Fluffdaddy

Hey Ukraine wanted ships right? Why don't the UK donate Prince of Wales to them. Just make it clear no takesies backsies after they hand it over.

# ? Jul 9, 2023 06:37

fits my needs: Jan 1, 2011; Grimey Drawer

https://twitter.com/starsandstripes/status/1677899126279659522?s=20

https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1677557639817969665

# ? Jul 9, 2023 06:37

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

Frosted Flake posted:

Somehow each of those points became dogmatic - and if and how that differs from doctrinal, I couldn't say.

Doctrine is like the Bible. It's a thing, it exists, people can read it, interpret it, rewrite it. Dogma is the belief, the interpretation, or the way society decided to understand that doctrine.

# ? Jul 9, 2023 06:40

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

BearsBearsBears posted:

There was a quote that was something like this but I'm having trouble finding it. I probably read it from one of your posts.
"A sound tactic in the morning is folly by the afternoon" -Napoleon?

Seems like Napoleon just loved to say random poo poo about how people acted differently during various parts of the day.

quote:

As to moral courage, I have very rarely met with the two o’clock in the morning kind: I mean unprepared courage.

Once on St. Helena, Napoleon had a lot of time to talk and several people to record his musings. This Napoleon quote comes from another conversation with Las Cases, on December 4-5, 1815. Murat and Ney are two of Napoleon’s generals who were executed by the Bourbons in 1815.

‘With respect to physical courage,’ the Emperor said, ‘… it was impossible for Murat and Ney not to be brave, but no man ever possessed less judgment; the former in particular.’ ‘As to moral courage,’ observed he, ‘I have very rarely met with the two o’clock in the morning kind. I mean, unprepared courage, that which is necessary on an unexpected occasion, and which, in spite of the most unforeseen events, leaves full freedom of judgment and decision.’ He did not hesitate to declare that he was himself eminently gifted with this two o’clock in the morning courage, and that, in this respect, he had met but with few persons who were at all equal to him.

Everyone's a gangsta until it's dark and you can't see poo poo.

# ? Jul 9, 2023 06:51

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

https://twitter.com/RealAlexRubi/status/1677839949012533248?s=20

# ? Jul 9, 2023 06:54

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Lostconfused posted:

Seems like Napoleon just loved to say random poo poo about how people acted differently during various parts of the day.

Everyone's a gangsta until it's dark and you can't see poo poo.

Napoleon was nite krew :hmmyes:

# ? Jul 9, 2023 06:56

Homeless Friend: Jul 16, 2007

# ? Jul 9, 2023 07:00

fizzy: Dec 2, 2022; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Bad news for the Russo-Belarussian axis - Poland is wise to their tricks and has taken steps to secure their borders against threats (including potential shenanigans by Wagner) from the Belarus direction.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...f0850c66ca2ee73

O700 BST

Poland has begun moving more than 1,000 troops to the east of the country amid rising concern in the Nato member that the presence of Wagner fighters in Belarus could lead to increased tension on its border.

“Over 1,000 soldiers and almost 200 units of equipment from the 12th and 17th Mechanized Brigades are starting to move to the east of the country,” the defence minister, Mariusz Błaszczak, wrote on Twitter.

“This is a demonstration of our readiness to respond to attempts at destabilisation near the border of our country.”

Last Sunday Poland said it would send 500 police to shore up security at its border with Belarus.

Russian president Vladimir Putin’s decision to offer mercenary fighters of Yevgeny Prigozhin’s Wagner group the choice of relocating to Belarus has led to fears among eastern Nato members that their presence will cause greater instability in the region.

A senior Wagner commander was quoted as saying on Saturday that mercenaries from the group were preparing to move to Belarus.

# ? Jul 9, 2023 07:24

paul_soccer12: Jan 5, 2020; by Fluffdaddy

Starsfan posted:

That is good news for Ukraine, and potentially bad news for Russia if what the Ukrainian fighters are saying is true.

I agree

# ? Jul 9, 2023 07:39

fits my needs: Jan 1, 2011; Grimey Drawer

https://twitter.com/economics/status/1677930584486625280?s=20

Ukraine�s 39-Year-Old Arms Chief Ramps Up Production in Face of Missile Hits
Monthly shell production up by multiples of total 2022 output
Rheinmetall, BAE seen as first of many foreign joint ventures

quote:

But while Rheinmetall�s chief executive Armin Papperger has brushed aside the threat from cruise missiles to the tank factory he said he was considering for Ukraine, others are skeptical.

�Air defenses are not foolproof,� says Marta Kepe, a senior defense analyst at the Rand Corporation, a US think tank. �So to what extent will companies really be willing to put their staff at that kind of risk?�

And while trying out weapons on Ukraine�s battlefields is invaluable, US and European producers don�t need to manufacture there to benefit, she said.

Still, the experience gained from repairing an unprecedented variety of US and European weapons systems could create a lucrative niche for Ukrainian engineers to provide high-level maintenance services to clients around the world, according to Kepe.

Ukraine has made production statistics for the industry secret, so it�s difficult to verify claims about the sector�s past failures or recent successes. But Kamyshin, whose career before the invasion included managing grain elevators and motorcycle factories, brushes off the skeptics.

�Where else can you test like this?� he asked.

# ? Jul 9, 2023 07:52

fizzy: Dec 2, 2022; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Bad news for Russia - NATO will be there for Ukraine for as long as it takes, and Ukraine still hasn�t thrown into battle much of its best new Western equipment.

Source: Wall Street Journal
https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-war-counteroffensive-frontlines-russia-add3e4e4

Why the Ukraine Counteroffensive Is Such Slow Going
By Ian Lovett and Daniel Michaels
July 9, 2023 12:08 am ET

...

Ukraine is now attempting to dislodge an entrenched enemy, one of the most daunting operations any military can undertake. Russian troops have spent months building physical defenses that include bunkers, tank traps and minefields�some more than 15 miles deep.

In this phase of the war, Ukraine�s lack of resources is proving as much of a challenge as the dug-in Russian defenses. Despite the delivery of new Western weapons in recent months � and a promise by the U.S. Friday to send deadly cluster munitions in the future � Kyiv�s effort to push south through Russian territory toward the Sea of Azov has stalled. Though Ukrainian officials say they are making progress, and have reclaimed a handful of villages in the Zaporizhzhia and Donetsk regions over the past month, they also acknowledge the herculean nature of their task.

...

Ukrainian soldiers said the Russians in the Zaporizhzhia region have constructed miles of zigzagging, interconnected trenches, some of them reinforced with concrete, or covered with wood-and-earth roofs so they are difficult to spot using drones. Fields are heavily mined. In at least two cases, Ukrainian soldiers said, the bodies of their killed comrades had been mined as well.

�It�s impossible to completely destroy such a well-prepared position before advancing,� said a 38-year-old rifle unit commander in the 108th brigade, who goes by the call sign Vados. To be able to take it, he said, Ukrainian artillery forces would need to first bombard the area and then advance with armored vehicles to bring in infantry. A shortage of tanks and other armored vehicles has made that strategy hard to execute, he said.

...

In 1991, before coalition land forces advanced in Operation Desert Storm, the U.S. led a five-week air campaign to wear down Iraqi positions.

Ukraine lacks the firepower and air-superiority that America and its partners had in those fights. Kyiv�s air force consists of a small number of Soviet-era fighter jets and helicopters, some supplied by former East Bloc allies now in NATO.

The Russians, meanwhile, are deploying advanced Sukhoi fighter jets and Ka-52 helicopters across the southern front.

...

At NATO�s summit this week in Lithuania, which Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky is slated to attend, alliance leaders will �send the message that we will be there for as long as it takes,� Stoltenberg said.

NATO countries are discussing sending Ukraine U.S.-made F-16 fighter jets, but the planes are unlikely to enter the war this year. Lacking F-16s, Ukraine is lobbying allies for shells of all sizes�from machine gun bullets to artillery projectiles.

The U.S. recently said it would send Ukraine cluster munitions, which have the potential to kill or wound more Russians. Fired from artillery, the shells spew small bomblets over a wide area. Their downside is that some fail to explode, potentially endangering civilians after a conflict ends.

Kyiv is trying to soften the Russian defenses before sending troops in, but doesn�t have enough ammunition to simply flatten Russian-held villages, as the Russians did in Bakhmut and other parts of eastern Ukraine. Instead, Ukrainian troops usually make artillery strikes only if they have confirmed Russian positions with drones.

Soldiers said a lack of armored vehicles was also slowing their efforts to advance. Speaking recently from a command post in the Zaporizhzhia region, Vados, the rifle-unit commander, said that his unit had tried to assault a Russian-held village the previous day. As Ukrainian infantry advanced on foot, the Russians moved to surround them.

�If we had more vehicles, we could have brought more infantry to the flanks,� Vados, a lieutenant, said. Instead, the unit retreated without taking the village. In the month since the offensive began, Vados said he hasn�t been part of an operation that successfully seized a well-prepared Russian position.

Ukraine still hasn�t thrown into battle much of its best new Western equipment. Kyiv has dozens of German-made Leopard 2 tanks, but after several of them got stuck in minefields in early June, they haven�t been seen on the battlefield. Some brigades that were spared from the fighting earlier this year to train on the Western equipment also haven�t been used since the offensive began.

Military analysts believe Ukraine is still probing for weak spots before committing the bulk of its Western weaponry. The reconnaissance is difficult because Russians can often see Ukrainians approaching across open ground.

...

Ukrainian officials have declined throughout the war to discuss casualty figures. But soldiers on the southern front say that a unit can sometimes lose dozens of men in one assault.

A 19-year-old combat medic, who goes by the call sign Bald, said he made three runs to pick up injured comrades during a recent assault, transporting eight men to stabilization points. Earlier in the summer, a mortar hit his car during an evacuation. Another vehicle came to pick up the growing number of wounded.

�We had to evacuate the evacuation team,� he said.

Ukrainian forces have shot down some of Russia�s helicopters in recent weeks. One soldier from an antiaircraft unit near the border of the Zaporizhzhia and Donetsk regions said Russian choppers sometimes fly within 5 miles of Ukrainian troops. The proximity improves Russian attackers� accuracy, but also leaves them vulnerable. The soldier said he shot down two in one week last month, using Soviet-era antiaircraft systems.

Still, infantry say the aircrafts remain a menace.

�We don�t have proper air defense systems to deal with the threat,� said Dmytro, a 40-year-old platoon commander in the 108th brigade. �When we�re warned that an enemy plane has taken off, the only way to deal with it is to take cover.�

The region of mostly flat, open fields separated by thin treelines offers little protection. In the spring, some troops who fought in the area questioned whether an offensive could succeed here, given the landscape.

The difficulty of the task hasn�t been a surprise, Lt. Col. Telehin said.

�We knew that to be able to move forward against such well prepared defenses,� he said, �we�d need experience, resources and surprise.�

fizzy has issued a correction as of 07:58 on Jul 9, 2023

# ? Jul 9, 2023 07:55

DancingShade: Jul 26, 2007; by Fluffdaddy

Just wait until we unleash the full power of Rhinemetal! (German smelter closes down permanently)

# ? Jul 9, 2023 07:59

Mr. Sharps: Jul 30, 2006; The only true law is that which leads to freedom. There is no other.

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

https://news.yahoo.com/us-official-says-exiled-wagner-014406157.html

# ? Jul 9, 2023 08:00

Danann: Aug 4, 2013

Homeless Friend posted:

i guess this is the picture before a bunch of flying lawnmowers knock it out

or found abandoned in a minefield somewhere

# ? Jul 9, 2023 08:00

January 6 Survivor: Jan 6, 2022; The
Nelson Mandela
of clapping
dusty old cheeks

( o(

BearsBearsBears posted:

Is the other guy in that video using a WW2 era Degtyaryov machine gun?

yup, a later model DPM, to be more pedantic.

I mean it's not the best option out there but it sure beats a maxim in portability. Though I would rather assign the DP/DPM (or maybe even RP46* if they can find those) to infantry and maxims to shooting down drones but what do I know.

*solves the problem of using old pan magazines that might not work quite right by switching them for the same metallic belts that the PK/PKM and SG43 use

# ? Jul 9, 2023 08:02