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fatherboxx)
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Jon posted:Two posts above this someone said that Ukraine should be given Nuclear, Biological or Chemical weaponry if they asked for it. The reason I asked the question that I did was because the reasoning in defense of cluster munitions could easily apply to NBC weaponry, and clearly for some folks that's accurate and consistent.
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Jul 9, 2023 02:08
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Jon posted:Two posts above this someone said that Ukraine should be given Nuclear, Biological or Chemical weaponry if they asked for it. The reason I asked the question that I did was because the reasoning in defense of cluster munitions could easily apply to NBC weaponry, and clearly for some folks that's accurate and consistent. I dont see that two posts above. Either way, do you understand the difference between possessing weapons and using them? Possessing nuclear weapons prevents anyone from attacking you. There have been two nuclear weapons used in war in history, and a red line has been drawn since. Outside some chlorine weapons that Russia used, I am not aware of any chemical weapons being used in modern warfare; if you have sources I would love to be educated. Using cluster munitions against an invading army is not comparable to anything you are saying. If anyone defends using nuclear or chemical weapons they have something wrong with them. Cluster munitions can be cleaned up, and are targeted over a discrete area unlike the weapons you are trying to make a comparison against. Chemical weapons can drift and impact areas you did not intend- the same thing with any radioactive weapons. Targeting invading soldiers only is never immoral - it is unfortunate and shouldnt occur if humanity didnt have psychopaths in charge of countries like Russia.
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Jul 9, 2023 02:10
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Moon Slayer posted:That's not what I said What do you mean? I'm not taking the piss, I can't read your post in any other way. Moon Slayer posted:let's turn this around: are you legitimately worried that Ukraine is going to ask for weapons of mass destruction and be provided them? Or are you Just Asking Questions? No, I don't think that's very likely at all but this isn't a random question, it's the result of people defending a certain type of weaponry by saying war is already bad so anything that can make it end more quickly is justified. That seems like it has some implications that I asked about and the ensuing collective conniptions weren't an expected result.
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Jul 9, 2023 02:12
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Ok, so you're just dumb. Got it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 9, 2023 02:14
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kinda wild that Russia is firing so many cluster munitions into a single city that you can make a small hill out of the dispersers and there was zero outcry whatsoever from these people. one of the piles in kharkiv of cluster munitions Russia fired into the city in less than two months:  the calculus is unambiguously that removing russia from Ukrainian territory is the most expedient way to limit the threat to civilians
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Jul 9, 2023 02:23
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I guess I just don't understand the argument that since cluster munitions are already in use then Ukraine using them won't be so hard to clean up or as damaging to the population. The belief that Ukraine should use every available option (within reason) I can understand, tho. If they weren't effective, they wouldn't exist. But this weird line of thinking where Ukraine using clusters will somehow be less harmful than Russia doing the same just doesn't make sense to me.
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Jul 9, 2023 02:26
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if you give the slightest gently caress about Ukrainian civilians, get Russia out of Ukraine
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Jul 9, 2023 02:26
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Cpt_Obvious posted:I guess I just don't understand the argument that since cluster munitions are already in use then Ukraine using them won't be so hard to clean up or as damaging to the population. Are you familiar with the concept of diminishing returns? Once an area has already been turned into a no go zone without cleanup, turning that area into a no go zone that will need somewhat more cleanup is very very obviously less harmful than turning it into that no go zone was in the first place.
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Jul 9, 2023 02:35
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For those legitimately interested in the UXO issue I would point out that so far Ukraine has been requesting cluster munitions several generations newer than those used previously in combat by the US. Aside from the humanitarian angle, leaving UXO is a legitimate design issue that lessens the impact of these munitions on the target and can complicate the efforts of friendly troops afterwards, so there's been consistent work to improve their reliability. They're a lot less likely to leave UXO than the older munitions used in say, Vietnam, and probably especially less so than the surplus Soviet stuff being thrown around already. In the use case of being a replacement for soviet shaped charge grenades dropped by small drones they would be a flat out better/safer option. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Jul 9, 2023 |
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Jul 9, 2023 02:43
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Like others have brought up repeatedly, the land is already filled with mines and the cluster munitions Russia has been firing into civilian areas, adding more isn't going to make much of a difference in a no-man's land full of mines and uxo already. I'm all for stopping the fighting as soon as possible, but it annoys me how so many of those voices calling for peace say that it can only happen if Ukraine gives up everything to Russia and let Russia take and do whatever they want, never the other way around usually because "Russia's victory is inevitable so why resist and cause more suffering?"
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Jul 9, 2023 02:43
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Yeah, this pearl clutching about the US supplying cluster munitions to Ukraine is just the same "why is the West prolonging this fight!?" argument with a thin veneer of current events.
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Jul 9, 2023 02:47
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Herstory Begins Now posted:the calculus is unambiguously that removing russia from Ukrainian territory is the most expedient way to limit the threat to civilians i'm so loving tired of the hand-wringing about how much ukraine is fighting back or what weapons they're using when this has always been the case. russia attacked. ukraine is defending. ukraine would not see a need to use such weaponry if russia simply stopped being the aggressor. regardless of what ukraine does to defend itself, it is ultimately russia's fault for imposing the need for such defense.
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Jul 9, 2023 02:58
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Moon Slayer posted:Yeah, this pearl clutching about the US supplying cluster munitions to Ukraine is just the same "why is the West prolonging this fight!?" argument with a thin veneer of current events. I think a lot of it is that people don't want to think about what it means to have a war that kills tens or hundreds of thousands of people, so it's easier to imagine that some weapons are good (the ones we send) and some weapons are bad (the ones the other guys are using). When both sides use the same weapons that logic breaks down, which makes people uncomfortable.
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Jul 9, 2023 03:08
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spiky butthole posted:That’s all great but do you look good in booty shorts? Nobody wants to see that. Good username/post combination, btw.
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Jul 9, 2023 03:19
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My wife's (Polish) family makes white borscht, no dill, no beets. Fresh kielbasa that's boiled up; the resulting broth is the base, the cooked kielbasa is sliced up in it, along with a bunch of boiled eggs and sauerkraut. Tasty with a good seeded rye. But czernina can gently caress right off. poo poo's nasty.
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Jul 9, 2023 03:52
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Just because you're defending against an immoral nation means that all bets are off when it comes to sparing civilians (Theirs or Russia'), avoiding cruelty, etc. Yeah, the Ukraine military used cluster ammunition all along. That's an action their civilians are going to have to live with for a long while. I feel that it's not a situation where I can say I'm 100% with either answer. Helping Ukraine defend itself Russia is a clear Good thing. Supplying weapons that will kill a large amount of civilians is a Bad Thing. And I personally am happy I'm not in any kind of position where I need to decide whether to use them, or whether to supply them, because it feels like it's something that'll weigh on your conscience no matter what decision you take. But I also think we're doing a disservice by dismissing this as 'eh, they're not so bad'? Cluster munitions ARE bad, and ideally, we go to a world where their use is so tabboo that any tactical advantage gained by using them is neutralized by large scale sanctions against the state that does it. If this were a more 'morally ambiguous' conflict, I think we would be far more willing to call it out as weapons with a larger civilian suffering quotient than others. And I don't think it's fair to accuse people who look at this balance and feel that the civilian suffering is unacceptable as 'secretly supporting Russia' or 'dumb and thinking war has no suffering'. Cluster munitions do lead to higher rates of civilian suffering. They are 'bad' weapons.
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Jul 9, 2023 03:54
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I just hope Ukraine doesn't fire any cluster artillery rounds into Belgorod.
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Jul 9, 2023 04:39
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Shogeton posted:Just because you're defending against an immoral nation means that all bets are off when it comes to sparing civilians (Theirs or Russia'), avoiding cruelty, etc. Yeah, the Ukraine military used cluster ammunition all along. That's an action their civilians are going to have to live with for a long while. Do you know whats worse than any of that? 500 days of literal genocide.
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Jul 9, 2023 04:58
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I wish people would take a moment to think of an innocent child playing in a field who comes across a brightly colored, fragrant canister. Reaching down, they are instantly covered in blood. The lessons of history are clear. We must not be party to the proliferation of czernina weapons.
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Jul 9, 2023 05:00
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Groggy nard posted:Do you know whats worse than any of that? The worst Zoey Deschanel movie
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Jul 9, 2023 05:00
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Give Ukraine the equivalent of anything that has been used against them. Give them F15/16/18s. Give them cluster munitions and ATACMS. Give them tanks and IFVs and rifles. If Russia wants to use NBCs, give Ukraine the power to answer back in kind. I've never actually had borscht but I really should try it, if there is anywhere in the Chicagoland area anyone recommends let me know.
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Jul 9, 2023 05:06
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ranbo das posted:Give Ukraine the equivalent of anything that has been used against them. Give them F15/16/18s. Give them cluster munitions and ATACMS. Give them tanks and IFVs and rifles. Tryzub is an option, but I mean there are plenty of options. Probably better to ask the Chigoon thread. You can even get pickled beets by the jar and then make it at home easily, too.
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Jul 9, 2023 05:40
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Even without making borscht, beets are awesome. Roast them, peel the skin off, and serve them sliced with butter and salt. Just if you do, leave yourself a note on the bathroom door, "you had beets last night". That'll save you a terrified trip to urgent care.
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Jul 9, 2023 06:02
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ranbo das posted:
Smak-Tak in Jefferson Park is supposed to be the best Polish restaurant in the city. There are a ton of places near there, and a surprising number around Glenview.
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Jul 9, 2023 06:17
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Armacham posted:The worst Zoey Deschanel movie If that were a real movie this still probably wouldn't be true.
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Jul 9, 2023 06:26
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ranbo das posted:I've never actually had borscht but I really should try it, if there is anywhere in the Chicagoland area anyone recommends let me know. There are a ton of options around the city. Best option is always to make friends with someone Polish or Ukrainian and have some homemade. I am not a huge fan of borscht myself. I am just not into beets at all. I am actually not much of a fan of most sweets in general though so that isn’t surprising.
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Jul 9, 2023 06:43
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spiky butthole posted:That’s all great but do you look good in booty shorts? 
Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 07:39 on Jul 9, 2023 |
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Jul 9, 2023 07:24
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*sighs as I reset the "
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Jul 9, 2023 07:25
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ranbo das posted:I've never actually had borscht but I really should try it, if there is anywhere in the Chicagoland area anyone recommends let me know. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Village,_Chicago (real answer was Tryzub, but it's been a decade plus since i was there, or homemade as mentioned previously.)
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Jul 9, 2023 08:04
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https://www.politico.eu/article/bulgaria-economy-minister-bogdan-bogdanov-nikolay-denkov-hints-at-russian-attack-on-ammunition-factory/quote:The major fire that broke out at the warehouse in Karnobat was the second to occur there in less than a year. NATO smoking accidents are on the rise.
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Jul 9, 2023 08:39
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I remember when "Gunfight at the Explosion Factory" was a joke.
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Jul 9, 2023 08:56
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Jon posted:For those defending the use of cluster munitions because it's a useful tool in fighting a war of national liberation- are there are any sorts of tools that you consider indefensible in that pursuit? Where is your line drawn in terms of weaponry or tactics? Personally, I draw the line at sharks with laser beams.
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Jul 9, 2023 09:11
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In  news:I don't think I've seen this in international news (yet). Machine translated as usual. https://www.tagesschau.de/investigativ/ndr-wdr/bnd-wagner-russland-100.html quote:BND alleged to have intercepted conversation during Wagner uprising The BND was also under pressure because they supposedly knew of the mutiny a week beforehand but failed to inform parliament (because they couldn't verify the source, they say). Curious to know that they apparently still have the capability to penetrate deeper into Russian structures than they let on.
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Jul 9, 2023 09:29
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Jon posted:For those defending the use of cluster munitions because it's a useful tool in fighting a war of national liberation- are there are any sorts of tools that you consider indefensible in that pursuit? Where is your line drawn in terms of weaponry or tactics? You first! What weapons/support should Ukraine never be given or ever have been given ever even if similar was and is used against them on their own land by genocidal invaders
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Jul 9, 2023 09:46
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Staluigi posted:You first! What weapons/support should Ukraine never be given or ever have been given ever even if similar was and is used against them on their own land by genocidal invaders i love good faith dialogue
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Jul 9, 2023 10:55
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Somaen posted:This is a ten dollar forum where it's cool to make fun of the Holodomor because there's an academic debate whether it's a genocide, a joking way to refer to Erdogan is several orders of magnitude way below that. Are you an american with a case of the leadbrains? Sleeping on it, I'm sorry, it wasn't a good thing to post.
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Jul 9, 2023 11:20
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Cpt_Obvious posted:I guess I just don't understand the argument that since cluster munitions are already in use then Ukraine using them won't be so hard to clean up or as damaging to the population. Imagine you have a piece of contested territory that has been mined and Russia has used cluster munitions on. Post war, this area has to be thoroughly demined in a way that can deal with cluster uxo. Now imagine that Ukraine also used cluster munitions in that same area. How is the situation different? They still need to demine every meter of that territory. Maybe they find a few additional cluster munitions as they go. Compare that with the asymmetric war that inspired the bans, where there are no mines or cluster munitions in the territory and it doesn't require demining. Using cluster munitions there is a terrible idea that will have a huge impact on the country post war. Obviously more uxo does have some impact: there's a higher chance that some are missed - but that impact is directly tied to the dud rate and what fraction of the total uxo they make up, which in Ukraine will be a fraction of a percent.
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Jul 9, 2023 12:01
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Cpt_Obvious posted:I guess I just don't understand the argument that since cluster munitions are already in use then Ukraine using them won't be so hard to clean up or as damaging to the population. Well, Ukraine wouldn't be using cluster ammunition on civilians for one. So there's that. A pretty obvious thing, really. If you're arguing in god faith, that is.
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Jul 9, 2023 12:07
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Comte de Saint-Germain posted:i love good faith dialogue Sometimes a loaded question was loaded for us. russia isn't going to voluntarily end their whole thing of intentionally targeting civilians and doing mass slaughter stuff until they're forced out by an inability to continue aggressing. they wasted no time in mining occupied territories to hell and back and dropping cluster munitions on anything and everything they wanted. the argument about whether to give Ukraine cluster munitions works inside that framework
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Jul 9, 2023 12:23
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Jon posted:No, I don't think that's very likely at all but this isn't a random question, it's the result of people defending a certain type of weaponry by saying war is already bad so anything that can make it end more quickly is justified. That seems like it has some implications that I asked about and the ensuing collective conniptions weren't an expected result. Maybe you're being genuine here but I find it very hard to believe. Your interpretation of what people are saying is absolutely false so either you're very bad at reading or are purposefully doing a bad-faith reading of those posts so that you can keep arguing. If you're going to pretend that you need it pinpointed it's the "anything that can make it end more quickly is justified" in which it should be assumed that people are not going to condone nuclear weapons or biological agents unless stated otherwise because THAT is the good faith reading to take on people's positions.
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Jul 9, 2023 13:13
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