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fatherboxx)
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I don't think convict soldiers / anyone who went into Wagner get that. They are supposed to, and there are at least several interviews with relatives who did. Prigozhin is a pathological liar, but the gangster code of honour mandates that he can't gently caress with money of other gang members, and I honestly believe he respects that above all laws. Hence the two vans full of cash that he legitimately was going to use to pay his mercs. E: And to be clear, there is a law that essentially entitles all 'volunteers' to the same payments as regular soldiers. Paladinus fucked around with this message at 13:58 on Jul 10, 2023 |
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Jul 10, 2023 13:56
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| # ? Jun 6, 2024 20:42 |
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Russian social media is full of families and soldiers complaining about the lack of paychecks. Not even a death payout, regular pay isn't consistent across the mobilized corps. Some have been at the front line for months, while claiming to receive zero money. Not something we can easily cross check, but worth keeping in mind. According to anecdotal accounts, Wagner has been rather consistent with actually paying out to families and next of kin. But they do insist on burying dead soldiers at their own cemeteries inside Russia, and families are fighting local governments to bring those remains home.
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Jul 10, 2023 13:58
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Freudian slippers posted:Prigozhin isn't writing any more checks, so there's really no need to keep on working. Yes, Russian intelligence had such foresight as to register this account 19 years ago, almost a decade before Wagner existed. I'm just sad that sweet sweet Russian money is all gone now- guess I'll have to get back with Soros.
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Jul 10, 2023 14:10
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I don't think convict soldiers / anyone who went into Wagner get that. Putin literally aired the number for state insurance funding (i.e. payouts killed+wounded) that was assigned to Wagner for the past year and it aligns well with 15-20k casualty numbers for them.
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Jul 10, 2023 14:21
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Paladinus posted:They are supposed to, and there are at least several interviews with relatives who did. Prigozhin is a pathological liar, but the gangster code of honour mandates that he can't gently caress with money of other gang members, and I honestly believe he respects that above all laws. Hence the two vans full of cash that he legitimately was going to use to pay his mercs. Yeah for all Priogozhin is a piece of poo poo, he does seem to command genuine and very strong loyalty to a large number of people, so he must be a fairly effective leader, which would not work if he breaks promises to his enlisted troops.
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Jul 10, 2023 14:28
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Jon posted:Why not? Russia targeted civilians first, and if targeting Russian civilians would help end the war faster it would be justified, wouldn't it? Targeting civilians is not only bad, but it never works in hastening the end of a war. That the Russian military is doing it only proves their command is not only morally bad, but also stupid.
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Jul 10, 2023 14:42
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Charlz Guybon posted:Targeting civilians is not only bad, but it never works in hastening the end of a war. Well the Russian military doesn’t care about civilians in Ukraine. If Russia would take over the country they would enact a large scale re-education program and likely ethnic cleansing along with forced resettlement. Fewer civilians left means less people they have to deal with. In a regular, conventional conflict you are 1000% correct but in a war of extermination/annihilation as Russia is conducting civilians are of little concern to them.
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Jul 10, 2023 14:50
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We're only murdering civilians because the other side would kill them anyway doesn't sound like something the good guys would say.
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Jul 10, 2023 16:17
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VitalSigns posted:We're only murdering civilians because the other side would kill them anyway doesn't sound like something the good guys would say. Good thing nobody said that.
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Jul 10, 2023 16:18
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VitalSigns posted:We're only murdering civilians because the other side would kill them anyway doesn't sound like something the good guys would say. Correct, everybody knows the good guys should doggedly stick to a zero collateral damage strategy when defending against an enemy that is intent on eradicating the very concept of them as a people. Otherwise they would be just as bad wouldn't they? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 10, 2023 16:26
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We should clearly judge righteousness of things by what anonymous randos not directly involved post on obscure internet forums.
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Jul 10, 2023 16:32
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Charlz Guybon posted:Targeting civilians is not only bad, but it never works in hastening the end of a war. Isn't that how the US ended WW2? Or is this a goon joke?
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Jul 10, 2023 16:42
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daslog posted:Isn't that how the US ended WW2? Or is this a goon joke?
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Jul 10, 2023 17:08
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daslog posted:Isn't that how the US ended WW2? Or is this a goon joke? Only if you take a very basic 'Y follows X therefore X caused Y' view of the two events. The civilian casualties were irrelevant to the decision to surrender, and in fact if Hirohito had not thrown in the towel the Japanese people would have persisted because targeting a civilian population does not break the will of that population to continue fighting.
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Jul 10, 2023 17:29
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daslog posted:Isn't that how the US ended WW2? Or is this a goon joke?
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Jul 10, 2023 17:43
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The exact impact the nuclear bombs had on Japan compared to the Soviet invasion of Manchuria (and therefore the loss of the main thing Japan wanted negotiations to keep) is still debated among historians. For the full debate on this topic, go ask the Mil History thread in A/T. But both mattered.
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Jul 10, 2023 18:05
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I don't think you can compare the first and only use of nuclear weapons in human history with conventional terror bombing campaigns. The latter of which has never worked to force a surrender and usually does the opposite. Edit: apparently this needs clarification: I'm not arguing whether or not nukes did anything wrt surrender, I'm trying to shelve that debate as irrelevant. Cpt_Obvious fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Jul 10, 2023 |
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Jul 10, 2023 18:08
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The terror bombing of Rotterdam is probably the most clear cut example of mass murdering civilians working to obtain a capitulation, but I think people shy away from that example because they don't want to associate themselves with the Nazis that directly even though they are essentially copying their attitude toward attacking civilian populations.
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Jul 10, 2023 18:09
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Cpt_Obvious posted:I don't think you can compare the first and only use of nuclear weapons in human history with conventional terror bombing campaigns. The latter of which has never worked to force a surrender and usually does the opposite. Well neither has the former. This is one of those topics where if you think you have something cogent to say you either 1) are a very qualified specialist or 2)wrong and you should not say anything. Not picking on you, Cpt_Obvious, you were just the closest person to quote : if you (general "you" ; "one") are trying to make a strong causative claim about the effects of the nuclear bombs on WWII, you are probably already wrong and should stop talking.
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Jul 10, 2023 18:14
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the US also firebombed tokyo to dust before they nuked.
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Jul 10, 2023 18:15
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Stop the WW2 derail please
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Jul 10, 2023 18:19
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Charlz Guybon posted:Targeting civilians is not only bad, but it never works in hastening the end of a war. Absolutely, but let's break this down further. Russia's intentional targeting of civilians, first off, is a flagrant violation of internationally recognized norms and rules; an indefensible transgression against humanity. Compare that to NATO-allied forces, and here, specifically Ukraine, their strategy is not one of brute force and disregard for civilians but a necessity to counter the brutality of the Russian forces. Now, I don't condone violence, least of all, war. But let's reign in some historical perspective here. Think our man Neville Chamberlain leading up to World War II brushing Hitler off as a minor concern versus Winston Churchill's hard line, ‘We shall fight on the beaches’ mentality. How’d that work out for world peace? NATO’s actions, akin to Churchill's approach, stem from the need to curtail an unhinged dictator, let's say Putin this time, compared to Russia's invasion of Ukraine, which reeks off reminiscent unpleasantness of Hitler's expansionist ambitions. I mean, brushing up on our modern history here lads, haven’t we seen this play before? While I wholeheartedly concur that the civilian cost of warfare is devastating, we have to look beyond just the act itself here. We need to contextualize it within the larger narrative of rights, sovereignty, and a dictator’s ego trip. It’s less about right versus wrong in wartime tactics, and more about who started the unneeded conflict to begin with. At the end of the day, is it not better trying to extinguish out of control fire than be the one maniacally spreading it? edit: Whoops, sorry fatherboxx, I didn't see that - will delete if this is too much "WW2".
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Jul 10, 2023 18:51
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Edit: no derailing
Rugz fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Jul 10, 2023 |
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Jul 10, 2023 18:52
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https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/07/09/sappers-risk-their-lives-to-win-ukraine-back-inch-by-inch A piece on the change in tactics adopted by the Ukrainians in the south and why the front has essentially been at a standstill for 3 weeks. Economist posted:The Ukrainian sappers given the job of finding a way through have to deal with around 1,500 mines per square kilometre. That is before Russian artillery, drones, aviation and electronic warfare begin their work. “Sappers have become target number one,” says “Sleepless”, the company commander in charge of the ill-fated mission on June 27th. “It’s a hunt, pure and simple.” https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1677747805325017088.html A thread on a supposed captured Russian document on how they are trying to adapt to AFU tactics employed not just in the south but along the entire front in the offensive. No claims on authenticity but the documents' description on Ukrainian tactics and Russian responses seem to line up with what is coming out on social media and the like.
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Jul 10, 2023 18:59
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Cpt_Obvious posted:I don't think you can compare the first and only use of nuclear weapons in human history with conventional terror bombing campaigns. The latter of which has never worked to force a surrender and usually does the opposite. That the nuclear bombing of Japan hastened their surrender is complete bullshit. But I mean most contemporary sentiment about any part of that war, especially wrt China/Japan is whack-a-mole at best. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 10, 2023 19:25
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America: The japanese were abominable monsters. Ever read about Unit 731?! Also America: Unit 731 our now our best friends and we love everything they wrote.
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Jul 10, 2023 19:27
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VitalSigns posted:The terror bombing of Rotterdam is probably the most clear cut example of mass murdering civilians working to obtain a capitulation, but I think people shy away from that example because they don't want to associate themselves with the Nazis that directly even though they are essentially copying their attitude toward attacking civilian populations. As far as I understand Wikipedia, by the time Rotterdam was bombed, a surrender was in the process of being worked out. The Luftwaffe tried to call off the bombing raid but couldn't get to all the bombers die to Radio silence and bad visibility preventing flares from being seen. It was, like many other bombing raids on cities, a completely useless and senseless slaughter of people.
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Jul 10, 2023 19:29
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Yeah the defense of the Dutch army was dead in the water from the outset, they had hoped to stay neutral like in WWI. They were never going to stop a full scale German attack for long.
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Jul 10, 2023 19:36
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VitalSigns posted:We're only murdering civilians because the other side would kill them anyway doesn't sound like something the good guys would say. This is not an entirely accurate characterization of opponents' arguments, as they didn't advocate murdering the same civilians Russians would, but rather other civilians. However, I don't think this is intentional on your part, and it doesn't affect the overall thrust of the argument, so I'm opting to just point this out.
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Jul 10, 2023 19:36
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Article by RUSI on the supply of cluster munitions https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/giving-ukraine-cluster-munitions-necessary-legal-and-morally-justified quote:In summary, therefore, the objections to DPICM provision to Ukraine are militarily dangerous, legally misleading and morally questionable, drawing a false equivalence between Russian and Ukrainian use cases. The use of such weapons by the AFU on their own territory, at their own discretion, against fortifications in open countryside, and against hostile forces who routinely fire Soviet-era cluster munitions and other highly unreliable HE munitions into civilian cities would, therefore, be consistent with the principles of proportionality and discrimination.
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Jul 10, 2023 20:04
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What is the expected positive result of deliberately targeting civilians, specifically that would not be more effectively done by using those same weapon systems against military targets? Russia's doing so in this very war has just motivated Ukrainian support of the war more. Is the theory that people are going to overthrow Putin for refusing to stop the war? Really questioning what leverage the Russian population has to force a dictator to stop doing something that's more effective than targetting the Russian military personal.MikeC posted:https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/07/09/sappers-risk-their-lives-to-win-ukraine-back-inch-by-inch
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Jul 10, 2023 20:11
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Koos Group posted:This is not an entirely accurate characterization of opponents' arguments, as they didn't advocate murdering the same civilians Russians would, but rather other civilians. However, I don't think this is intentional on your part, and it doesn't affect the overall thrust of the argument, so I'm opting to just point this out.  Edit: well, yah know, war doesn't always discriminate. If you intend to kill one group of people you may end up killing another so 
Cpt_Obvious fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Jul 10, 2023 |
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Jul 10, 2023 20:12
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Terrible Opinions posted:
They were given some. The issue is they can't be kept alive vs attack helicopters and missiles.
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Jul 10, 2023 20:20
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Chalks posted:The use of such weapons by the AFU on their own territory, at their own discretion, against fortifications in open countryside, and against hostile forces who routinely fire Soviet-era cluster munitions and other highly unreliable HE munitions into civilian cities would, therefore, be consistent with the principles of proportionality and discrimination. Thank you for posting that, this sentence is the thing that everyone seems to be ignoring and approaching this from the perspective that Ukraine and Russia are two sides of the same coin and are going to use their weapons exactly like the other is.
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Jul 10, 2023 20:33
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Terrible Opinions posted:What is the expected positive result of deliberately targeting civilians, specifically that would not be more effectively done by using those same weapon systems against military targets? Russia's doing so in this very war has just motivated Ukrainian support of the war more. Is the theory that people are going to overthrow Putin for refusing to stop the war? Really questioning what leverage the Russian population has to force a dictator to stop doing something that's more effective than targetting the Russian military personal. Russia is an autocratic kleptocracy so everyone in charge got where they are based on there ability to bribe, threaten and manipulate. No one is there through talent. There's an instinctive urge to lash out at your opponent when you're losing. It's stupid and ineffective, but when you are also stupid and ineffective, there's nobody there to tell you differently. Ukraine targeting Russian civilians would be a gift for Putin, and they're smart enough to know this. Chalks fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Jul 10, 2023 |
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Jul 10, 2023 20:33
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https://twitter.com/jensstoltenberg/status/1678484703060324359quote:Glad to announce that after the meeting I hosted with @RTErdogan & @SwedishPM, President Erdogan has agreed to forward #Sweden's accession protocol to the Grand National Assembly ASAP & ensure ratification. This is an historic step which makes all #NATO Allies stronger & safer. Very good news. Glad all the talk of Turkey trying to use this as a bargaining chip to get into the EU turned out to be nonsense.
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Jul 10, 2023 20:38
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https://twitter.com/jensstoltenberg/status/1678484703060324359 How much pressure did rest of NATO put on Erdogan for him to finally relent? e: beaten
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Jul 10, 2023 20:38
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Oh. Well then.
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Jul 10, 2023 20:42
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Great news! I wonder what the rub is. Turkey joining the EU is a complete non-starter with him still in power so.
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Jul 10, 2023 20:42
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I'm guessing, based on absolutely nothing, that it's a "they agreed to think about it again" moral victory that can be trumpeted high and low but doesn't actually mean anything.
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Jul 10, 2023 20:49
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