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Perestroika posted:That is indeed very cool! Though I wonder, why is the general in question only specified as "Commanding General"? OPSEC in case the message is intercepted? Or as part of some broader protocol? The general in charge of the operation. I think in this case the CO of the 21st is relaying a message from HQ on to his subunits, hence the quote unquote.
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Jul 11, 2023 01:20
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zoux posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBmWztLPp9c Wiki says it was "His Imperial Majesty" but I don't know if A) that was around for this Napoleon or N3, B) if it was considered acceptable to just shorten that to "majesty" and C) if the screenwriters just decided to shorten it for whatever reason
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Jul 11, 2023 01:59
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ninjahedgehog posted:Wiki says it was "His Imperial Majesty" but I don't know if A) that was around for this Napoleon or N3, B) if it was considered acceptable to just shorten that to "majesty" and C) if the screenwriters just decided to shorten it for whatever reason They’re already putting it in English.
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Jul 11, 2023 02:13
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Xiahou Dun posted:They’re already putting it in English. If he wanted a biopic in French he shouldn't have lost
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Jul 11, 2023 02:54
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sullat posted:If he wanted a biopic in French he shouldn't have lost 
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Jul 11, 2023 03:34
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sullat posted:If he wanted a biopic in French he shouldn't have lost 
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Jul 11, 2023 04:02
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sullat posted:If he wanted a biopic in French he shouldn't have lost is this too long for a topic because god drat
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Jul 11, 2023 04:03
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Pretty sure it's shorter than our current one.
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Jul 11, 2023 04:11
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sullat posted:If he wanted a biopic in French he shouldn't have lost Typhus: Une histoire brève
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Jul 11, 2023 04:22
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wdarkk posted:Pretty sure it's shorter than our current one. This needs to happen.
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Jul 11, 2023 05:43
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Xiahou Dun posted:This needs to happen. 
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Jul 11, 2023 05:52
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sullat posted:If he wanted a biopic in French he shouldn't have lost Holy poo poo.
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Jul 11, 2023 14:48
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Thread title is updated too, it's so good. Thanks sebmojo assuming that was you
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Jul 11, 2023 15:02
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Crosspost because I figured this might be of interest here too:Cyrano4747 posted:Speaking of reference works, check out what came in the mail today:
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Jul 11, 2023 15:03
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Cyrano4747 posted:Crosspost because I figured this might be of interest here too: Very interesting. Are there any units from Provinz Posen or SIlesia?
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Jul 11, 2023 15:17
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Tevery Best posted:Very interesting. Are there any units from Provinz Posen or SIlesia? So interestingly that's one of the areas that this is a bit of a pain in the rear end as a reference. It's easy enough to look up a specific unit (it's in the TOC) and it's easy enough to look up a specific officer (huge index of last names in the back) but if you're specifically interested in a region it's dodgier. I need to read up on how Imperial Army regiments were raised, but I don't believe the standing ones were drawn from the same geographical area. Note that I could be wrong, but this is the impression I've gotten. So in that example above, I believe Cologne is where it was headquartered in 1910. It would be interesting to get a copy of this from, say, 1880 and see if that unit was someplace else 30 years prior. One of the things I want to do is build my own index of units by location. Now, the interesting thing is that they also list the Landswehr in here, and those most certainly are regional. Here's the first page for Landwehrbezirk Posen:  I couldn't find a Landwehrbezirk Schlesien, but that's also a larger area that I suspect it may have been sub-divided. I can't find a complete list of them online easily, and mapping all of them to their geographical locations is a project for another day. As a side note on my trying to figure out how the regiments were organized re: geography: My last name is German and, without doxxing myself, I'll say that it's pretty uncommon even in Germany and pretty strongly geographically concentrated to one area. So when I flipped to the back to see where my distant relatives were, I found a bunch in the Landwehr right around the home region, as one would expect, then one random junior officer in a regular army unit that was listed as being way the gently caress off away from that. So, nothing conclusive, but another data point in my basic hypothesis that regular army units were drawn from across the country rather than a specific region.
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Jul 11, 2023 15:43
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Re thread title; the truth hurts Francophile Bonapartists.
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Jul 11, 2023 16:46
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they'll just dub it and voila, Wellington speaks French now (like he drat well should, bien sûr) also he's been in a few movies before...
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Jul 11, 2023 16:53
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SeanBeansShako posted:Re thread title; the truth hurts Francophile Bonapartists. I hon hon hon from behind my rational civil code
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Jul 11, 2023 16:57
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SeanBeansShako posted:Re thread title; the truth hurts Francophile Bonapartists. I cannot believe you would personally attack me like that
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Jul 11, 2023 18:12
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sullat posted:If he wanted a biopic in French he shouldn't have lost Is there some extra joke in here I'm not getting? I thought France loved a lot of losers.
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Jul 11, 2023 18:34
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sullat posted:If he wanted a biopic in French he shouldn't have lost spoilers, man
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Jul 11, 2023 18:35
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SlothfulCobra posted:Is there some extra joke in here I'm not getting? I thought France loved a lot of losers.
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Jul 11, 2023 18:48
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Cessna posted:They also DID mock up / "vis mod" some tanks to look like US armor: I like the welded on crane attachment points, nice attention to detail by the germans.
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Jul 11, 2023 18:50
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Tevery Best posted:I cannot believe you would personally attack me like that 
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Jul 11, 2023 19:17
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Nenonen posted:they'll just dub it and voila, Wellington speaks French now (like he drat well should, bien sûr) Personal favorite.
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Jul 11, 2023 20:04
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mksNgNorvz0 I quite enjoy Rodpoleon despite it being slightly hammy at times, dude does a great Napoleon In A Spiral.
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Jul 11, 2023 20:10
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apropos of nothing I want to point out the loving utter perfection that is this avatar another mod has: Also, it is a perfect summary of the German military situation in 1944.
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Jul 11, 2023 20:48
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Cyrano4747 posted:apropos of nothing I want to point out the loving utter perfection that is this avatar another mod has: Gott im Himmel
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Jul 11, 2023 20:50
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Cyrano4747 posted:apropos of nothing I want to point out the loving utter perfection that is this avatar another mod has: mein kalm
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Jul 11, 2023 21:47
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I gather, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that modern Germany (despite what's going on in some regional elections in former DDR states) is among the most tolerant societies on the planet. I've heard that far from shying away from educating generations about the Nazi era, they fully face it and they don't try and lessen the evil and horror perpetuated by Nazi Germany. I assume that as soon as Hitler shot himself in 1945, the German populace didn't suddenly become pro-semetic and open-minded, especially given how many committed as hell Nazis ended up in positions of power or otherwise integrated back into polite society. So how did that transformation occur, was it driven domestically or externally, and how did it differ between East and West Germany?
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Jul 11, 2023 22:09
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Well here comes Cyrano to summarize his dissertation.
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Jul 11, 2023 22:12
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Cyrano4747 posted:So interestingly that's one of the areas that this is a bit of a pain in the rear end as a reference. It's easy enough to look up a specific unit (it's in the TOC) and it's easy enough to look up a specific officer (huge index of last names in the back) but if you're specifically interested in a region it's dodgier. I need to read up on how Imperial Army regiments were raised, but I don't believe the standing ones were drawn from the same geographical area. Note that I could be wrong, but this is the impression I've gotten. So in that example above, I believe Cologne is where it was headquartered in 1910. It would be interesting to get a copy of this from, say, 1880 and see if that unit was someplace else 30 years prior. One of the things I want to do is build my own index of units by location. Interesting. I'm mostly curious to see if there are any Polish names in the officer rolls, and it seems like that Landwehr unit has none (but I am not that good at reading fraktur).
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Jul 11, 2023 23:16
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zoux posted:I gather, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that modern Germany (despite what's going on in some regional elections in former DDR states) is among the most tolerant societies on the planet. I've heard that far from shying away from educating generations about the Nazi era, they fully face it and they don't try and lessen the evil and horror perpetuated by Nazi Germany. Then you wait a generation until the kids get older and they start realizing what the actual gently caress their parents actually did. Which leads to another social reckoning of how utterly unacceptable that crap was and that maybe there should be a lot more effort put into ensuring that never is acceptable again. In the East, denazification was a lot harsher, deemed successful, and since East Germany was an anti.fascist state that meant that everything was fine after that and no one supporting Nazi ideology could exist there. Social reckoning could undermine the state and therefore was suppressed. This doesn’t cause any problems at all nowadays. Please ignore the support right extremist parties have in firmer East Germany.
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Jul 11, 2023 23:19
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zoux posted:I gather, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that modern Germany (despite what's going on in some regional elections in former DDR states) is among the most tolerant societies on the planet. I've heard that far from shying away from educating generations about the Nazi era, they fully face it and they don't try and lessen the evil and horror perpetuated by Nazi Germany. The really short version is that post-WW2 the Nazi state was absolutely destroyed. The leadership was dead or in prison, the middle-tier fuckos were specifically banned from working in government, and all the little fish had to prove that they were actually little fish enough to be allowed to be a power plant engineer again. Did a bunch of people sneak in the back door over the next few decades, especially as the cold war kicked off and both the NATO allies and USSR had bigger fish to fry? Absolutely, we can sit around all day talking about the W. German judiciary and the Stasi. But, at the end of the day, both of the successor nations to Nazi Germany were founded on explicitly anti-Nazi grounds and very consciously reached back to the Weimar Republic and the 1848 Revolution as their political touchstones. Note that this stands in pretty stark comparison to the continuation of the Imperial Household and the ongoing influence of a lot of the conservative constituancies that led the anti-democratic movement in early Showa Japan. Without getting into the weeds on education, this meant that it was both incredibly easy to throw the Nazis under the bus (and indeed a lot of the people working in the educational ministries had been victims of the Nazis) and just hammer home that Hitler and his cronies loving sucked. Again, lots to be written about the differences in how E. and W. Germany did this and what it meant especially in terms of things like "how we discuss the jews" and future issues with neo-nazism, but at the end of the day "Hitler loving sucked" was the party line, uncontroversial in public almost immediately, and just the assumed thing within two generations. For the most part the major differences in how the East and the West German states handled it can be boiled down to who they focused on as the victims of National Socialism, and how they handled the continued existence of people who were alive pre-1945. In East Germany "victim of national socialism" was an actual protected class with some benefits, and for the most part they focused on the pre-war suppression of the socialists and communists - in other words the post-WW2 ruling class of the DDR. There's one guy I'm aware of, for example, who was a post-war minister in a East German state who would give tours of Buchenwald for school children. Note that he was legitimately a victim of the Nazis. The guy was pre-war KPD, got arrested in the late 30s, stuck in Buchenwald for close to 7 years, suffered pretty awfully, and after the war immediately walked into a government position because as far as the Soviets were concerned "was literally in a concentration camp for for being a communist" was a pretty iron-clad statement of his anti-Nazi credentials. Still, when you imply that arresting other Germans for being communists is the pinnacle of Nazi crimes, that's not great. You'll find old DDR monuments with phrasing like "to the brave members of the KPD who were executed here in 1945, along with the other tens of millions of victims of national socialism." Basically they lumped political prisoners, civilians who died in the war, Soviet war dead, and extremely parenthetically also a bunch of Jews into the same bucket without really examining why, exactly, an entire religion was more or less wiped out in Germany and Eastern Europe and how that might be a little bit different than the political repressions. It should be noted that this is part of a larger and equally problematic Soviet/Socialist historiography of the Holocaust, so this didn't exist in a vacuum. The West Germans, on the other hand, were firmly stuck in the middle of a broader European reckoning with the crimes of the Nazis and as such participated in the broader historical and cultural movements that took place, ranging from the first showings of Nuit et brouillard on through the student protest years (when a lot of crap came home to roost for the Judiciary, at least in a cultural sense) to the Historikerstreit and culminating in more recent stuff like Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter and the broader non-German European reckoning with how it wasn't necessarily only Germans who sold out their Jewish (and Roma, and disabled, etc) neighbors to a bunch of genocidal thugs. For the East there was also the unfortunate official line that the BRD was the successor state to the Hitlerite dictatorship, and naturally all of the old, bad Germans had moved over there. Now, there was a degree of self-sorting that happened in the Occupation Zones before things really firmed up in the early cold war. If you're a ardent socialist in 1946 Hamburg chances are you're going to try to move out east, because that's where a lot of your fellow socialists and communists are now getting put into government by the Soviets. If you're a die-hard anti-communist in Leipzig chances are that living under the Soviets isn't something you relish, so there's a good chance you gently caress off to the west. Obviously not everyone did this - people don't like to leave their home towns after all - but it's a thing that happened. Still, the notion that all the fascists moved to the West was a fairy tale to begin with. I mean, gently caress, just look at the goddamned Stasi. On a more serious level, there is ample evidence that a poo poo load of old party members kept their jobs and just kept on keeping on in the east. Stuff like the guy who was the mailman (or whatever) in 1930, then joined the National Socialist Mailman's Union in 1935, who we have a bunch of pictures of him strutting around and sig heiling while delivering the mail in the 40s, and then in 1947 after a bout of unemployment he's back to delivering the mail in his shiny new People's Socialist Mail Carrier uniform. East or West Germany, start flipping rocks and a bunch of cockroaches with swastikas on their back will swarm out. Problem is that in the East the official line was this wasn't a problem, all the bad old people were in the west, nothing to see here, and there wasn't a free press if someone decided that was bullshit and they wanted to object. While in the west when you flipped those rocks people kinda had to recognize that yeah, that's hosed, and in the late 60s in particular a bunch of students started asking some pointed questions about what the gently caress all their politicians and judges and professors had been doing 30 years prior. Probably the most emblematic example of all of this is this picture right here, the Warschauer Kniefall:  That's the Chancellor of Germany, Willy Brandt, kneeling before a monument to the victims of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. The head of state of the a post-Nazi Germany getting on his knees in a public display of contrition and apology for the crimes of his and his parents generation (it should be noted here that Brandt had some pretty sterling anti-Nazi credentials himself - Willy Brandt was actually his pseudonym from when he fled Nazi Germany, his real name was Herbert Frahm). And he's doing this in Poland, a country on the other side of the Iron Curtain. There's just zero loving way that an East German head of state does that, ever. So in the end there's just this much deeper, fully developed reckoning with the Nazi past in West Germany.
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Jul 11, 2023 23:40
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DTurtle posted:In the West, denazification worked - it was externally enforced, quickly abandoned, and many semi-former Nazis were never punished or suffered consequences. However, it made it socially unacceptable to express support for Nazi ideology. One small correction - denazification in both the east and west were about equally successful if you define it in terms of making sure Nazis aren't in power. In both cases very similar proportions of people holding sensitive jobs (say, schoolteachers) in 1955 are going to have nasty Nazi pasts. The idea that the East Germans had a harsher denazification is largely a myth.
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Jul 11, 2023 23:41
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Cyrano4747 posted:One small correction - denazification in both the east and west were about equally successful if you define it in terms of making sure Nazis aren't in power. In both cases very similar proportions of people holding sensitive jobs (say, schoolteachers) in 1955 are going to have nasty Nazi pasts. The idea that the East Germans had a harsher denazification is largely a myth. One more thing, this isn't even strictly a myth propagated by the East German state, a lot of it comes from activists in the west looking around, realizing how many old Nazis still had their jobs, businesses, and wealth, and insisting that they had to come to grips with this. East Germany was frequently held up as an example of where they had done better, but without a full understanding that no, they hadn't, they just swept it under the rug better and if someone tried to open a dialog about that over there they got arrested as a dissident.
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Jul 11, 2023 23:43
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That was a fantastic post, thank you for writing it.
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Jul 11, 2023 23:59
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Cyrano4747 posted:One small correction - denazification in both the east and west were about equally successful if you define it in terms of making sure Nazis aren't in power. In both cases very similar proportions of people holding sensitive jobs (say, schoolteachers) in 1955 are going to have nasty Nazi pasts. The idea that the East Germans had a harsher denazification is largely a myth. Cyrano4747 posted:One more thing, this isn't even strictly a myth propagated by the East German state, a lot of it comes from activists in the west looking around, realizing how many old Nazis still had their jobs, businesses, and wealth, and insisting that they had to come to grips with this. East Germany was frequently held up as an example of where they had done better, but without a full understanding that no, they hadn't, they just swept it under the rug better and if someone tried to open a dialog about that over there they got arrested as a dissident. This was one of the points I wanted to get across with my post. In a very strict view, denazification largely failed at fairly punishing former Nazis. However, when taking a bit of a wider view, denazification was astonishingly successful in West Germany at destroying support for Nazi ideology. Also, how is this the first time I’ve heard that Willy Brandt was actually a pseudonym?! 
DTurtle fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Jul 12, 2023 |
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Jul 12, 2023 00:23
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SeanBeansShako posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mksNgNorvz0 I really feel the bit where he comes out of his tent during Neys cavalry attack all "What the gently caress are you morons doing can't I leave you alone for 5 minutes"
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Jul 12, 2023 00:47
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