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I assume it's because season one also had a lot of people writing/working on scripts in TNG that were also in TOS like DC Fontana etc., so it probably gives off TOS vibes when they were still trying to figure the overall direction of TNG.
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Jul 14, 2023 14:03
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Section 31 is fine as long as the show's stance is explicitly that Section 31 is bad, which is exactly where DS9 lands pretty much 100% of the time. It's literally just a slightly different take on the Bad Admiral trope that's all over Star Trek.
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Jul 14, 2023 14:49
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Paradoxish posted:Section 31 is fine as long as the show's stance is explicitly that Section 31 is bad, which is exactly where DS9 lands pretty much 100% of the time. It's literally just a slightly different take on the Bad Admiral trope that's all over Star Trek. I appreciate why people do, but I think it is a mistake how so many people put Starfleet/The Federation on a pedestal as a flawless utopia. Like even in TNG, all those Bad Admirals means something
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Jul 14, 2023 14:54
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It doesn't have to be flawless, but the implication that it really only worked because of S31 or that they're largely happy to tolerate S31 the way America tolerates the CIA's darker stuff is pushing it far too much for me. S31 on DS9 was fine because it was a cabal and not well known and even inside Starfleet's Admiralty it seemed like only a few knew about it, and our characters immediately know that this was wrong on a fundamental level and fought it. When you get into the point presented in Disco or Picard where S31 is a well established entity in Starfleet and our characters just put up with it or it takes them a whole drat season to come around to 'oh this is probably bad', you're just reducing the Federation back to nothing more than Space America. It should at least be a bit beyond that. The fact that as of PIC S3 apparently Worf and Riker and Picard know about Section 31 and while they may not be happy are just fine to accept its existence as a secret but official part of Starfleet with their own space stations and poo poo is just no to me. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Jul 14, 2023 |
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Jul 14, 2023 14:59
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MikeJF posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8r8kcwLOnE This was pretty fun to watch, and also a reminder that the TNG crew, all of them, were known to be absolute cutups.
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Jul 14, 2023 15:05
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MikeJF posted:It doesn't have to be flawless, but the implication that it really only worked because of S31 or that they're largely happy to tolerate S31 the way America tolerates the CIA's darker stuff is pushing it far too much for me. S31 on DS9 was fine because it was a cabal and not well known and even inside Starfleet's Admiralty it seemed like only a few knew about it, and our characters immediately know that this was wrong on a fundamental level and fought it. When you get into the point presented in Disco or Picard where S31 is a well established entity in Starfleet and our characters just put up with it or it takes them a whole drat season to come around to 'oh this is probably bad', you're just reducing the Federation back to nothing more than Space America. It should at least be a bit beyond that. Thank you, this is precisely what I was trying to get at.
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Jul 14, 2023 15:15
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In TNG there certainly were badmirals but they were pretty isolated. The show stated on multiple occasions that there is no ends, there is only the means; the trial never ends and all that. DS9 was obsessed with means vs ends. There's so many episodes about it beyond just Section 31. Hell, it's not just Starfleet, it was Kira, it was the Cardassians, it was a lot of stuff. They danced across that line several times a season it feels like. They didn't need Section 31 for the coup episode - doing what they have to, to save the Federation from the Dominion. And when Section 31 did roll around, they apparently operated with the sanction of the highest levels of Starfleet. That's not bad apples, that's a spoiled bunch. I mean just compare Homecoming with Drumhead. One is an organized conspiracy to topple the Federation, the other was a roving space judge who mistook zeal for principle.
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Jul 14, 2023 15:40
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Also, why is it always Section 31, not Starfleet Intelligence? "Normal" intelligence service is too nice for your writing, so it always has to be the team assholes from the already morally very grey group of people?
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Jul 14, 2023 15:46
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Exactly, and that's why Homecoming is a good episode and The Drumhead is a bad one. Admiral Sadie just needed to be bopped on the nose once and she immediately crumpled and was rejected by her peer, in Homecoming their society is actually tested in a situation where the chips are down and the characters actually have to assess what their liberty means to them in a situation where they're not completely in control
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Jul 14, 2023 15:46
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MrMojok posted:Today’s episode for me was Inquisition. i think "inquisition" is a fantastic episode (and the one-two punch of "in the pale moonlight", possibly the best episode of any trek series, following right after is  ). you're not supposed to like section 31, the other posters pointing out that DS9 consistently saying "these are bad people" are absolutely right. they're not part of starfleet, this is something that sloan emphasizes repeatedly. if you believe our protagonists, then section 31 is bad and they want to destroy it. since this is what they say and do, you're supposed to land on that side, and i think the organization's appearances in DS9 underline that point pretty effectively.really, the problem is the media that came afterwards. into darkness basically establishes them as having their own overt force, and discovery does the same while also having officers stationed on ships with their own identifiable commbadge (and lower decks explicitly makes fun of this); this is not the way section 31 is presented in DS9 at all. i think if they had kept with their original concept it would have worked better, but in nutrek they are basically cartoonishly evil, far more of an overt organization, and even seemingly a part of starfleet sometimes. it's a mess since you haven't seen the rest of DS9 i won't go into detail, but the later series really hosed up the concept, and it's a shame. imo most of the section 31 episodes in DS9 are very good
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Jul 14, 2023 16:19
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:In TNG there certainly were badmirals but they were pretty isolated. The show stated on multiple occasions that there is no ends, there is only the means; the trial never ends and all that. This is well put. And I should clarify, I don’t mean to bash the DS9 writers for putting S31 in there. I think this episode where we first learned about S31 is part of what made DS9 what it was. The darker aspect of the Trek universe. Along with In the Pale Moonlight, and the ongoing “Attention Bajoran Workers” thing. I like that they went there. When I said it was gross, I meant the idea of it. But as elements of dramatic, serialized television, these all really work, at least for me. And they are all part of why I think DS9 is in so many ways richer than all other Trek. Because they went there.
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Jul 14, 2023 16:19
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Beeftweeter posted:
I’m there for it. I’ve actually seen a lot of DS9 episodes, maybe something like half of them, I’d guess. But the ones I’ve seen I’ve watched throughout the years in syndication, and in no particular order. But I’d never seen any of the S31 episodes. I really need to do what several people have suggested, and just watch it from start to finish. What I’m doing now is kind of bouncing haphazardly through several lists I found online of what are the most acclaimed episodes of TOS, DS9, and TNG. And watching the episodes BBC America are currently showing of the latter two shows.
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Jul 14, 2023 16:26
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Der Kyhe posted:Also, why is it always Section 31, not Starfleet Intelligence? "Normal" intelligence service is too nice for your writing, so it always has to be the team assholes from the already morally very grey group of people? You could probably have gotten a plot out of "the Federation does have an illegal cloaking program, and it's using it to cloak monitoring stations and/or their relief ships." You could even have an entire ethical structure. "The relief ships are less armed than a bulk tanker. All they do is go to the monitor bases for supplies and crew rotations. Nobody is hurt, nor even threatened. What's the harm? The aggression?" Another cool Federation spy thing to do would be to have Betazed or other psychic species engage in tourism and then give reports on telepathic intelligence. You could also invent entire new intelligent species who incidentally have some kind of cool trick -- either as subjects of plotting or as another advantage in the Federation.
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Jul 14, 2023 16:42
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There's really no reason to assume Starfleet Intelligence doesn't already include
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Jul 14, 2023 16:59
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MrMojok posted:I’m there for it. I’ve actually seen a lot of DS9 episodes, maybe something like half of them, I’d guess. But the ones I’ve seen I’ve watched throughout the years in syndication, and in no particular order. it's really the best way to watch the series, particularly the later seasons. from around season 4 they're loosely serialized, up until a certain point in season 7, where there's like 8 or 9 episodes in a row that are basically direct continuations. it's true that they are essentially standalone, so you don't lose much by watching it piecemeal, but it's definitely better when taken in as a whole. to me that seems to have been the intention anyway, they kind of got screwed over by syndication
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Jul 14, 2023 17:03
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MikeJF posted:S31 on DS9 was fine because it was a cabal and not well known and even inside Starfleet's Admiralty it seemed like only a few knew about it, and our characters immediately know that this was wrong on a fundamental level and fought it It's hard for me to square this away when Sisko lets the Romulans join the war on a false premise or used ecological warfare on Maquis civilians.
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Jul 14, 2023 17:09
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V-Men posted:It's hard for me to square this away when Sisko lets the Romulans join the war on a false premise or used ecological warfare on Maquis civilians.
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Jul 14, 2023 17:20
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V-Men posted:It's hard for me to square this away when Sisko lets the Romulans join the war on a false premise or used ecological warfare on Maquis civilians. It's a fair point, and it does make me wonder how Bashir would have reacted if he ever found out about the full extent of Sisko's actions in "In the Pale Moonlight".
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Jul 14, 2023 18:00
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The only moral war crime is my war crime.
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Jul 14, 2023 18:11
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The sinister underbelly of the Federation is something that comes up over and over in DS9, whether it's observed externally or internally. What's interesting about Inter Arma is that they didn't cop out by just having Sloan - a creepy CIA type just itching to introduce crack cocaine to the streets of 1980s Los Angeles - be the sole representative of section 31 but to have his actions sanctioned by beloved Dadmiral William Ross. You're not supposed to feel good about it. The enterprise section 31 arc is pretty stupid though.
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Jul 14, 2023 18:18
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V-Men posted:It's hard for me to square this away when Sisko lets the Romulans join the war on a false premise or used ecological warfare on Maquis civilians. If Sisko didn't become a prophet, it's one thing I would have wanted the show to reflect on. I've seen it raised here, and in some ways agree with, the Romulans would've respected Starfleet more after the truth came out rather than less, but I think Sisko should've stood trial regardless. I dunno, it's a great episode, but in my mind during it Sisko is clearly the villain and doing the wrong thing. That he can live with it is him trying to escape the consequences of his actions. The Maquis however suck and did deserve it.
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Jul 14, 2023 18:42
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One thing I'm noticing watching these early-season TNG episodes is that they spend a lot more time showing basic procedural stuff - for instance, a whole scene showing Picard entering the access codes in order to remotely take control of another ship. It slows down the overall pacing, but it's still interesting to watch. Also, I kind of... like Dr. Pulaski? At least, she's not nearly as bad as I'd been led to believe.
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Jul 14, 2023 19:24
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The actress was good and the character was OK but her primary trait was bullying our autistic son Data.
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Jul 14, 2023 19:33
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DaveWoo posted:One thing I'm noticing watching these early-season TNG episodes is that they spend a lot more time showing basic procedural stuff - for instance, a whole scene showing Picard entering the access codes in order to remotely take control of another ship. It slows down the overall pacing, but it's still interesting to watch. That's because it was cool and new. Touch pad screens were still in development labs in reality, gently caress mobile phones themselves didn't even have LCD screens back then. If we discovered how to harness wormholes today, and in 30 years it was common to use them to go anywhere in the world, DaveWoo Jr Jr would be going on Web5 Something Awful 'why are they showing them walk through the portals in Stargate SG1, slows it down'. happyhippy fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jul 14, 2023 |
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Jul 14, 2023 19:43
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I know it’s more visual shorthand, but I’m always amused by the “multiple PADDs for different items” thing, now in the age of the cloud and tablets.
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Jul 14, 2023 19:53
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I would definitely have multiple screens for everything I was doing sometimes if I could.
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Jul 14, 2023 20:02
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Even though I can have all my dozens of tabs in one browser window, I usually have them sorted across five or six different browser windows by subject. Multiple PADDs is like that.happyhippy posted:gently caress mobile phones themselves didn't even have LCD screens Well they did but it was more like this kind of LCD  Tech wise seeing a seven segment clock like that crop up is one of the things that knocks me out of the Trek future illusion the most, for some reason. There's a few in S1 of TNG, IIRC. And of course the big awful ones on the bridge of TUC. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Jul 14, 2023 |
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Jul 14, 2023 20:08
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:There's really no reason to assume Starfleet Intelligence doesn't already include I dunno, they had to recruit O'Brien that one time. 
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Jul 14, 2023 21:09
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MikeJF posted:Even though I can have all my dozens of tabs in one browser window, I usually have them sorted across five or six different browser windows by subject. Multiple PADDs is like that. not on mobile phones in 1987. the dynaTACs had a LED display
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Jul 14, 2023 21:28
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There were definitely a number of times in DS9 when Section 31 or other amoral jerks do bad things, but the consequence is deemed to be good, so it leaves the audience wondering.
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Jul 14, 2023 22:22
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SlothfulCobra posted:There were definitely a number of times in DS9 when Section 31 or other amoral jerks do bad things, but the consequence is deemed to be good, so it leaves the audience wondering. morals? conundrums? issues? NOT IN MY STAR TREK
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Jul 14, 2023 22:25
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SlothfulCobra posted:There were definitely a number of times in DS9 when Section 31 or other amoral jerks do bad things, but the consequence is deemed to be good, so it leaves the audience wondering. that's why the pairing of "inquisition" and "in the pale moonlight" is so great. they both explore a moral gray area that star trek usually ignores, they do it well, and in both cases you're left wondering "was that really okay?" of course, there's really no one answer to that question; it depends on your point of view. there aren't many trek episodes like that in general, most of them have some kind of moral that is pretty abundantly obvious and the show guides you to an expected conclusion. in several episodes (particularly later ones), DS9 didn't really do that, and i think that's great. it's by far the most morally complex trek
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Jul 14, 2023 22:29
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If doing bad things did not sometimes lead to (conditionally) good outcomes, they wouldn't really be a temptation or dramatically interesting irony, they would be the equivalent of neurological injuries.
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Jul 14, 2023 22:40
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Nessus posted:The actress was good and the character was OK but her primary trait was bullying our autistic son Data. She was dealt with. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj8FIbuoWPY
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Jul 14, 2023 22:42
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Beeftweeter posted:most of them have some kind of moral that is pretty abundantly obvious and the show guides you to an expected conclusion. in several episodes (particularly later ones), DS9 didn't really do that, and i think that's great. it's by far the most morally complex trek Perfectly stated. On a different topic, I was just looking up “Funniest Star Trek episodes” and found out about Little Green Men, which is a Ferengi episode that I’ve never seen. And a couple of different lists called it “The funniest Trek episode ever” so man… I am pumped up to see this now.
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Jul 14, 2023 22:43
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zoux posted:The sinister underbelly of the Federation is something that comes up over and over in DS9, whether it's observed externally or internally. What's interesting about Inter Arma is that they didn't cop out by just having Sloan - a creepy CIA type just itching to introduce crack cocaine to the streets of 1980s Los Angeles - be the sole representative of section 31 but to have his actions sanctioned by beloved Dadmiral William Ross. You're not supposed to feel good about it. My low key favourite moment in Inter Arma is when they're talking about Cretak's fate and it's lke: "Thrown out of the senate?" "Definitely" "Arrested?" "Most probably" "Executed?!" "... I hope not." It really sells the fact that Ross did this from a perspective of Realpolitik, in spite of his personal feelings.
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Jul 14, 2023 22:51
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Marsupial Ape posted:She was dealt with. what the hell LA Law
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Jul 14, 2023 23:06
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wode posted:what the hell LA Law David E. Kelley kind of specializes in that kind of wacky bullshit.
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Jul 14, 2023 23:16
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Nessus posted:If doing bad things did not sometimes lead to (conditionally) good outcomes, they wouldn't really be a temptation or dramatically interesting irony, they would be the equivalent of neurological injuries. That's perfectly put, and why I'll always prefer that Sisko never got literally put on trial for Pale Moonlight. It leaves you questioning what really makes something good or bad. The writers clearly think it's bad, but the question of why is more complicated than you can do in an hour, and they respect that.
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Jul 15, 2023 01:13
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"Ugly! Ugly! Giant bags of mostly water!" Home Soil, I love it, I'm crying with laughter. A reasonably compelling mystery, an inorganic lifeform Picard and Co. are slowly coming to understand, then they finally make contact with it and it starts ROASTING in a hilarious "I! AM! A! ROBOT!" voice.
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