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banned from Starbucks posted:He was an odd one. His shtick was what? computers? or vampires who use the internet or something? I remember he ordered fast food and ate the driver and being like "The modern Vampire!" or something goofy and its like yeah but you just used a telephone. I think they came into S3 trying to do more "modern society/technology" stories, and less ancient ritual. It didn't really end up doing a lot of work thematically or coming together, but they seemed to try a bunch of different things: Anne and The Wish showing villains running assembly lines, Mr. Trick's entire yuppie deal, the weird spy gadget slayer hunters in Homecoming.
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Jul 15, 2023 03:34
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sebmojo posted:I really like 6 for how hard it goes, also once more... I think that one and season 5 are my favorite seasons. Season 6 just resonated with me more though, considering I watched it when I was around Buffy's age then and depressed. Can't stand Season 3, it's SO bittersweet with the, "I love you Angel, but I just can't be with you," nonsense. Season 1 was fun and kitschy; I look at it with fondness. Season 7 was a freaking mess. To be honest, I don't remember much of Season 4. I guess I'll get to it during the rewatch with my husband at some point to refresh my memory. Season 2 was fun too; I loved Angel getting to play the villain along with the amazing acting done by Landau and Marsters. Honestly, if it weren't for the will they/won't they bullshit, I would have liked 3 a lot too. Faith's a badass friend to Buffy; they just treat her like poo poo, not opening up to her early enough as a friend group and relegating her to a crappy motel instead of living with Giles or Buffy. The Mayor was so charismatic as a villain too.
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Jul 15, 2023 03:36
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Dawgstar posted:They talk about this little in the tabletop RPG trying to avoid the gamer urge to just find like an M-60 and shoot the Mayor's demon form and went with something like 'vampires and demons are mostly too prideful to use guns, it doesn't work on a lot of them anyway' and so on and so forth. As we've been discussing here and on the Buffy subreddit, Buffy is not a series you go to for the most logical storytelling or meticulous worldbuilding. Because, speaking of RPGs, I'm pretty sure almost everything Smiling Jack says to the Fledging in VTM Bloodlines applies to Buffy. A shotgun to the head would be REAL trouble for a Buffy vamp, too. But it's whatever. Conceit of the show, accept it and move on, I say. Pan Dulce posted:Honestly, if it weren't for the will they/won't they bullshit, I would have liked 3 a lot too. Faith's a badass friend to Buffy; they just treat her like poo poo, not opening up to her early enough as a friend group and relegating her to a crappy motel instead of living with Giles or Buffy. The Mayor was so charismatic as a villain too. The part that really stuck out to me was how Joyce basically said "once you ace the SATs, you can go and have a great life. We got Faith for Slayer duty." I don't think anyone was malicious to Faith. Her whole character in S3 is putting up a front, whether as a hero or a villain. As a hero she act the part of the confident, self-sufficient woman while she's a deeply insecure, lonely girl. The Mayor alone seemed to really understand this. It's one of his more memorable traits, how perceptive and even honest he is while being a total monster. And going back to Buffy vs. Angel, Holland Manners feels like a less cartoony/over-the-top version of the Mayor. Again, Buffy and Angel just have very different tones and purposes. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Jul 15, 2023 |
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Jul 15, 2023 05:39
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I think season 5 is easily the best Buffy season, and 4 is criminally underrated (it has two of the top-three best episodes)
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Jul 15, 2023 05:42
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NikkolasKing posted:The part that really stuck out to me was how Joyce basically said "once you ace the SATs, you can go and have a great life. We got Faith for Slayer duty." It's all in the subtleties. Like, when they gather all of Buffy's friends and family to host an intervention for her when Xander peeps on Buffy kissing a returned Angel, NONE of them alert Faith. When Faith asks about Angel and Buffy's backstory with him, she just cuts her offer of friendship off and leaves her hanging. Then, when she has a new Watcher with Gwendolyn Post, she further alienates her from Giles, Buffy, and the rest of the gang, proving further that the only person she can trust is herself. She's the Dark Buffy in that she has no friends, no family to rely on. No wonder the Mayor was able to manipulate her so easily. At the first sign of a slip-up, a murder that wasn't her fault, everyone goes against her. No one does the same a couple of seasons later, when Giles kills Ben.
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Jul 15, 2023 07:25
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Pan Dulce posted:It's all in the subtleties. Like, when they gather all of Buffy's friends and family to host an intervention for her when Xander peeps on Buffy kissing a returned Angel, NONE of them alert Faith. When Faith asks about Angel and Buffy's backstory with him, she just cuts her offer of friendship off and leaves her hanging. Then, when she has a new Watcher with Gwendolyn Post, she further alienates her from Giles, Buffy, and the rest of the gang, proving further that the only person she can trust is herself. Well...Faith did not help herself in that situation, throwing Buffy under the bus and just blatantly lying to Giles. Even still, Buffy and Giles did try to help her, it was the Watchers and Faith's own despair at what she had done which really pushed her to the dark side. As for what Giles did to Ben, that was indeed just straight up murder but there's so many surrounding circumstances that I guess people kinda gloss over it, in universe and out. I think a better comparison is someone like Willow who does straight up become a villain for a protracted period of time and is welcomed back far more easily than Faith was. Like, I think Faith and Buffy had the potential for some kind of intimate or romantic relationship but the events of S3 and 4 kill it deader than dead. In contrast, Buffy's and Will's relationship remained pretty strong even after Dark Willow. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 07:46 on Jul 15, 2023 |
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Jul 15, 2023 07:44
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Man... Fuffy would have RULED. I can't stand that they have such chemistry between Buffy and Faith and Buffy flat-out sleeps with Satsu in the comics, but when being introspective about her sexuality, Buffy basically says "It was a phase." As for Faith, the only hints we get that the flirting with Buffy was serious on her part is the First's chat with her in Mayor guise, where it states that Faith wanted Buffy to love her. Whether it's friendship-love or more is left open to interpretation. Does Whedon just hate bi/pan possibilities? Even with Spangel, they just sort of imply it was once, a one and done sort of thing. Oh, the possibilities... it would have been nice. 
Pan Dulce fucked around with this message at 09:05 on Jul 15, 2023 |
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Jul 15, 2023 08:38
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Pan Dulce posted:Does Whedon just hate bi/pan possibilities? Even with Spangel, they just sort of imply it was once, a one and done sort of thing. Nah, that was just how lovely the industry was back then. The fights Buffy, and contemporary shows like Kings and Wonderfalls, had to have in order to include same sex content weren't insignificant.
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Jul 15, 2023 10:44
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Open Source Idiom posted:Nah, that was just how lovely the industry was back then. The fights Buffy, and contemporary shows like Kings and Wonderfalls, had to have in order to include same sex content weren't insignificant. How does that explain Satsu later in the comics though? She first came out in 2007!
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Jul 15, 2023 10:59
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Pan Dulce posted:How does that explain Satsu later in the comics though? She first came out in 2007! Buffy was a 90s show, on tv, not a comic in 2007
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Jul 15, 2023 11:05
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NikkolasKing posted:I think a better comparison is someone like Willow who does straight up become a villain for a protracted period of time and is welcomed back far more easily than Faith was. Faith does kill way more people than Willow did though, like Willow ultimately kills Warren and the magic guy and then fails to kill Jonathon and Andrew, tried to destroy the world and then gets talked down by Xander. Obviously trying to destroy the world is worse as an outcome than anything almost any villain could have achieved so pretty bad but she didn't do it. Faith worked for the mayor for a lot longer than Willow was evil, time is always hard to discern in the Buffy universe but it was most of the second half of Season 3 and he had her going out and stabbing people on the reg. Like the relatively benign demon dude and the volcano expert guy, she threatened to torture the poo poo out of Willow when they had her captive, was actively gleeful at the prospect of torturing Buffy slowly over months when she thought she had Angel turned into Angelus and even being on board with that plan is pretty heinous right? That's just season 3 too, then when she gets out of her coma she swaps bodies with Buffy and would have been fine with her dying in prison with the watchers or whatever, she does all that stuff in the two parter, then goes over to Angel and tortures the poo poo out of Wesley and then gets talked down by Angel, goes to prison (it's been awhile since I've seen these episodes so I am a bit fuzzy on the details) and then gets broken out in S4. When Faith does actually come back to Buffy, they do also welcome her back pretty easily ultimately if I recall. As for the Giles thing, I assume nobody ever comments on it because nobody ever found out in universe? Like he did it right when everything was going to poo poo anyway, then Buffy died, the rest of the scoobies aren't going to be like "hey what happened to Ben?" in the aftermath of it and probably if ever it had come up they'd just have assumed he slipped away like Buffy told him to. thebardyspoon fucked around with this message at 12:25 on Jul 15, 2023 |
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Jul 15, 2023 12:19
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I can't remember was Glory just possessing Bens body or what? What was the deal with whatever was going on there? I think even if people did see Giles kill him it wouldn't be too hard to shrug it off. The magic orb was destroyed and they basically had no other plays left by that point.
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Jul 15, 2023 13:14
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banned from Starbucks posted:I can't remember was Glory just possessing Bens body or what? What was the deal with whatever was going on there? I think even if people did see Giles kill him it wouldn't be too hard to shrug it off. The magic orb was destroyed and they basically had no other plays left by that point. Best as I can recall, Ben, like Dawn, was specifically created by magic. He was created to be Glory's prison When their shared essence/body was in Ben Mode, that was the only time Glory could be killed.
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Jul 15, 2023 13:29
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Guys am I going to have to do a rewatch of Buffy
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Jul 15, 2023 13:50
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Ben was a meat prison for Glory and she wasn't meant to have any agency but she "got out". Killing Ben was the only vulnerability to kill Glory. Edit: it's about 5 minutes of exposition with a hostage knight in s5e20 G-Spot Run fucked around with this message at 13:58 on Jul 15, 2023 |
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Jul 15, 2023 13:52
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And I'm pretty sure it's never really explained who those knight guys were (beyond a name) or why they are dedicating to hunting Glory. The Glory Mythos is definitely not why she's a great villain or Season 5 is a great season. It's actually terribly underdeveloped.
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Jul 15, 2023 14:33
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NikkolasKing posted:And I'm pretty sure it's never really explained who those knight guys were (beyond a name) or why they are dedicating to hunting Glory. Ben was created as a meat prison for Glory and was born 25 years before season 5 and Glory was only able to take control of Ben for 5 years. So how does the Order of Dagon, Knights of Byzantium and Glorificus' minions fit into that timeline? Were they just kinda hanging out and then the Glory/Ben/Key situation happened and they all just latched on that? Or maybe when Glory's host dies she gets a new meat prison and this has been going on for a long time which would mean she is now just started to take control of her new host.
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Jul 15, 2023 14:53
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thebardyspoon posted:Faith worked for the mayor [...] stabbing people on the reg. Like the relatively benign demon dude Isn't it weird how in Buffy, they never humanize demons, even if some, like Angel, are good with souls, some like the mummy girl in season 1 never chose to be evil, some like Anyanka prove to be good even when they're demons again, and some, like Clem are just nonviolent nice creatures? But in Angel the series, it expressly explores the goodness demons can have with Doyle and the evilness humans can have with the lawyers at Wolfram & Hart. I often assumed it was because Buffy can't afford to look at demons in shades of grey. She's the Slayer, ergo, she slays indiscriminately any demons in her way and leaves humans to human justice. If she sees some demons like Spike can repent and some like Clem and Anya can be nice, she'll hesitate and hesitation means death.
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Jul 15, 2023 15:47
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Well she goes to Willys bar for info and doesn't just murder everyone there many times in the first few seasons and then there is Clem who you mentioned, she leaves Dawn with him and invites him to her birthday part and stuff. The mummy girl chose to be evil when she was happy to kill others to extend her own lifespan right? That's kinda where Buffy the character seems to choose to draw the line. If you're human broadly speaking you get human justice or Buffy beats you up and tells you to gently caress off, if you're supernatural in some way but still kinda human then it's kinda of an in situation decision she has to make and if you're out and out a demon/vampire, attacking first and don't make a very compelling case for not being killed between the stake coming out and going into your chest then you're probably dead. The werewolves we see in the show are a pretty good example imo, Oz voluntarily locking himself up and sometimes having guards and stuff means he gets leeway and everyone is fine with him, they try and tranq him the times he gets out. Veruca actively embraces being a wolf and doesn't care if she kills people when she's out, refuses to lock herself away and tries to kill Willow, obviously Oz ended up killing her but I imagine Buffy wouldn't have felt massively guilty if she'd gotten there before him and had to do the deed herself. I think generally the small town vibes and it being set on the hellmouth just meant the majority of the demons we see were set on doing some nasty business and the examples of them being benign were few and far between, both because when they set out they didn't necessarily have the best grasp of what they wanted to do, no idea it was going to become this big universe that they'd be expanding on and also because it's a supernatural show where fighting is a big part of it, sometimes you just need a monster for Buffy to punch. Then by the time Angel started, that was setting out to actively explore that other side of demons trying to live integrated lives from the off and then expanded on it over the show with stuff like Lorne and his neutral bar getting more focus than the similar location did in Buffy. You also saw more debate in Buffy at that point with Riley being all "grrr, no good demons" and Buffy having to explain that it's not always that black and white, because of her past.
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Jul 15, 2023 16:25
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Heh the werewolf note reminded me of the first episode where Oz gets bit. "Oh hey mom, Cousin Geordi isn't a werewolf is he?....Oh, okay thanks"
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Jul 15, 2023 16:40
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banned from Starbucks posted:I can't remember was Glory just possessing Bens body or what? What was the deal with whatever was going on there? I think even if people did see Giles kill him it wouldn't be too hard to shrug it off. The magic orb was destroyed and they basically had no other plays left by that point. Wait, is there some kinda connection between Ben and Glory? You'd think the show would mention that? 
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Jul 15, 2023 19:29
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Spalec posted:Wait, is there some kinda connection between Ben and Glory? You'd think the show would mention that? ... troll post?
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Jul 15, 2023 19:34
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Spalec posted:Wait, is there some kinda connection between Ben and Glory? You'd think the show would mention that? Medullah posted:... Is everyone here very stoned?
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Jul 15, 2023 19:42
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Medullah posted:... 
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Jul 15, 2023 20:47
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Medullah posted:Heh the werewolf note reminded me of the first episode where Oz gets bit. "Oh hey mom, Cousin Geordi isn't a werewolf is he?....Oh, okay thanks" Speaking of Oz, I just thought of something. So, I know the seeds were there of either Xander or Willow turning out to be gay. That, according to rumors, it was up in the air which would turn out that way until the last minute. I also know that Seth Green wanted to leave Buffy because he wanted to explore more film options. So, bearing in mind the condition where Green didn't want this and stayed on Buffy, what do y'all think would have happened? I know Landau was really careful about only wanting to do guest spots because she was worried they'd kill her character; would they have done the same to Green's to free up Willow to be with Tara? Or would Xander have been gay? Either option has incredible downsides, as, though I love Oz, Tara was a sweetheart that Willow needed to balance her out and Xander losing Anya would have sucked for us as viewers since Anya is hilarious when blunt, which is always.
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Jul 15, 2023 20:47
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K I must have not been paying attention heh
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Jul 15, 2023 20:50
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Medullah posted:... What does Olaf have to do with this?
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Jul 15, 2023 23:05
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kilus aof posted:What does Olaf have to do with this? Convenient his hammer was the hammer of a god for the ending.
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Jul 15, 2023 23:42
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NikkolasKing posted:Convenient his hammer was the hammer of a god for the ending.  The hammer is my wait no wrong Jorts propertyedit: also Giles did nothing wrong wrt Ben, don't @ me unless it's to agree.
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Jul 15, 2023 23:59
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thebardyspoon posted:As for the Giles thing, I assume nobody ever comments on it because nobody ever found out in universe? Like he did it right when everything was going to poo poo anyway, then Buffy died, the rest of the scoobies aren't going to be like "hey what happened to Ben?" in the aftermath of it and probably if ever it had come up they'd just have assumed he slipped away like Buffy told him to. I find it hard to believe Dawn at least wouldn't be asking where the person trying to kill her went. Also missed the chance for Buffy to ask if anyone had seen or heard of him since and see Giles fumble for an answer. Crashbee fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Jul 16, 2023 |
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Jul 16, 2023 00:15
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Flight Bisque posted:edit: also Giles did nothing wrong wrt Ben, don't @ me unless it's to agree. Nope, this is an entirely correct opinion.
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Jul 16, 2023 00:40
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Flight Bisque posted:
Agreed. I kinda think Ben became complicit in Glory's poo poo after he summoned the weird alien baby thing to kill everyone who was brain sucked by Glory. Not to mention being okay with Dawn dying for him to be free. The dude had a lovely hand in life, but obviously, he didn't give a poo poo about anyone else. Ding dong, the bitch is dead.
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Jul 16, 2023 00:51
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Ben had tried to save Dawn earlier multiple times. In the last couple episodes, he is explicitly not himself and Glory is not just herself, they are bleeding into each other and so he's not fully culpable for his actions then, IMO.
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Jul 16, 2023 01:21
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if you are a walking apocalypse risk, it isn't really about whether you deserve it or not. glory would've taken about 5 seconds to start coming up with another way to open the gates of hell.
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Jul 16, 2023 01:25
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Yeah, Giles was entirely in the right to do what he did, and also entirely in the right about why Buffy couldn't. The Slayer is an individual with extraordinary power, but importantly, an individual. You want somebody like that taking on the bruisers, not doing calculus about whether it's okay for X number of people to suffer to save Y number. I get that there were issues with Anthony Stewart Head wanting to be with his family, but the last two seasons really suffer for his temporary absence. Season 6 at least manages to make it a plot point, but he barely does anything in Season 7 except turn on Buffy. And I do like that episode, but I wish they'd have found him a more central role.
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Jul 16, 2023 01:33
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He does add to the comedy in S7. One of my favorite lines of his that season is when they think he's the First and he goes, "You think I'm evil if I take a group of young girls on a camping trip and don't touch them?" So obvious, but funny.
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Jul 16, 2023 01:57
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Pan Dulce posted:He does add to the comedy in S7. One of my favorite lines of his that season is when they think he's the First and he goes, "You think I'm evil if I take a group of young girls on a camping trip and don't touch them?" So obvious, but funny. Uh what
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Jul 16, 2023 02:03
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The First is ethereal and can't touch things, they thought he was evil because nobody had seen him touch anything. .. as for the joke it was a different time.
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Jul 16, 2023 02:11
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I remember laughing at that, but in hindsight it's out of character and really gross now knowing what we know about Whedon.
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Jul 16, 2023 02:16
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G-Spot Run posted:The First is ethereal and can't touch things, they thought he was evil because nobody had seen him touch anything. It made no sense!! We, onscreen, didn't see him touch anything, but what, he stood around for several weeks ominously hovering and nobody noticed anything?? He never ate or used the bathroom or
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Jul 16, 2023 02:19
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