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Szarrukin posted:The only use I found for Goliaths is AA support for siege tanks. What a coincidence, that's their function in SC1! Goliaths would be fine except for some reason basically everything that isn't a marine is overcosted or has another glaring flaw. With Golaiths, they require an upgrade to be truly solid, but they also cost 3 times in minerals and supply (and 50 gas) what a marine costs while providing about 1.5 - 2x the value in DPS or relevant damage. And for some reason they share weapon sounds with another unit that we'll see later.
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Jul 15, 2023 18:27
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Torchlighter posted:What a coincidence, that's their function in SC1! Goliaths would be fine except for some reason basically everything that isn't a marine is overcosted or has another glaring flaw. With Golaiths, they require an upgrade to be truly solid, but they also cost 3 times in minerals and supply (and 50 gas) what a marine costs while providing about 1.5 - 2x the value in DPS or relevant damage. And for some reason they share weapon sounds with another unit that we'll see later. They're another campaign-only unit, and except for Medics and maybe Science Vessels, I feel like every campaign-only unit in Wings of Liberty is intentionally hamstrung in some way. That Blizzard was deliberately going "See? This is why you don't want them as a regular unit." Blizzard got steadily better about giving the player more freedom and power in the campaigns as SC2 went on, but Wings sure does love saddling you with a ton of units you'll never use except maybe in their introduction mission.
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Jul 15, 2023 18:32
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They're anti-heavy-aircraft antiair that lose against the Protoss' main heavy aircraft. And I can't remember but I assume mutas still eat them alive. At least in 1 they could take down carriers, provided you had the dropship micro to carry them around. They bad. Like everyone else has said, why the gently caress would you use them instead of more mariness? Dealing with splash damage units can be solved by other parts of the Terran loadout.
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Jul 15, 2023 20:31
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I feel like once you get the "Target air and ground simultaneously" upgrade, Goliaths are very worth at least mixing a few into a composition. The sheer utility of a unit that has passable DPS against both air and ground, and can do both at the same time is extremely valuable.
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Jul 15, 2023 20:50
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Weren't they cheaper in SC1? Their sounds are so weak and pathetic compared to the previous game, so they aren't satisfying to use at all.
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Jul 15, 2023 21:01
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I never built any goliaths in SC1, marines always seemed to be better all-rounders.
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Jul 15, 2023 22:06
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They aren't really all-rounders in SC1, though. From what little I remember of the multiplayer (and I have no doubt the meta has moved on and on since then), their ground attack is basically a little bonus you get to your super long range anti-air.
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Jul 15, 2023 22:33
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Wings of Liberty does have a problem with the marine, honestly. Very few units can outperform an equivalent resource quantity of marines with medic backup, and marauders cover the ones they can't.
Numbus26 fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Jul 15, 2023 |
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Jul 15, 2023 23:26
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This LP inspired me to play the game again. I set it to hard, because surely my experience going through the campaign once thirteen years ago had prepared me for this, and on this mission I tried to get the achievement for not letting the Protoss cap any altars. I think I was at it for about three hours (including saving and loading several times) before I gave up and just beat it normally. Mostly it's a problem of attention. I'm sure real Starcraft players have strategies for this, but it felt like I could either stop them from capping altars or cap one myself, but never both at the same time; I couldn't quite build up enough forces to split them and still have a chance at victory, and I kept having to drag my attack force back to the base to defend it. I actually ran out the resources at the original base just based on unit attrition from the constant fighting (luckily, I had already grabbed the expansion). Inevitably there would be something I should have been doing along with whatever I was doing that I failed to do, like I would discover I was so focused on fighting off the latest attack that my unit-producing buildings had gone idle. (When I got to Heart of the Swarm, I had remembered about hotkeying groups of those buildings, which made that campaign a lot easier.) Since this has come up in the thread, one thing I do remember from back then is that the campaign AI and the scripts that generate units are generally both active on these missions. So if there's a base that's visibly gathering resources, the AI will periodically build units with those resources and attack you with them. There are also scripts that generate units for attacks (for instance, one is run every time you grab an altar, so no matter how many resources the enemy has, you're going to get attacked with a bunch of units when you do that). But you can ease the pressure on yourself by wiping out any resource-gathering operations you can get to so that the AI isn't double-dipping on the attacks. It's just tricky to stop them on this level because the main base is substantial and well-defended (and if you can kill it, the mission is over anyway). On other maps, wiping out enemy bases can definitely help with your own base defense. BisbyWorl posted:I just go through my footage in VLC and occasionally hit the screenshot key. This is, incidentally, the correct way to do all screenshot LPs. Never, ever try to manage hitting the screenshot key while playing the game, just record everything you do as video and grab the screenshots later with VLC. Even if you're not under pressure to play the game, the last thing you want is to discover that you grabbed the wrong frame and have to go back and redo part of the game to get a better screenshot.
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Jul 15, 2023 23:54
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Numbus26 posted:Wings of Liberty does have a problem with the marine, honestly. Very few units can outperform an equivalent resource quantity of marines of marines with medic backup, and marauders cover the ones they can't. Yeah, everything loses to the marine. If you ignore the marine because it's broken as poo poo, the Goliath's chief comparison is the other AA mech unit. That comparison is a lot more favorable to the Goliath, and that other unit takes a really cool concept and squanders the hell out of it while Goliaths are cool. It's a solid workhorse that gets the job done all the way through brutal campaign, which is a ton more than most units can say. It's also completely trash without its 2 attacks at once upgrade to the point that it really should have been part of its base kit. Why yes, I do love Swann in co-op. How did you guess?
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Jul 16, 2023 00:11
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Intermission 6    It's true. We are called Spectres — next generation Ghosts.Okay, I'm 90% sure the animation team just wanted to flex there.        In a better written game they would have put in multiple scenes of Tosh acting sneaky, so this \dramatic reveal/ could have done more to make him look suspicious. But Tosh has been nothing but helpful to us! We know nothing about Project Shadowblade that could be bad! No kicked puppies or burnt down orphanages! A guy's allowed to have a past he doesn't want to talk about! Hell, look at Raynor playing a key role in Mengsk taking over to begin with!   Bit more to do in this Intermission. >Watch news.     It begs the question: could some of the Dominion's Ghost operatives have gone rogue? For UNN, this is Kate Lockwell reporting from core world, Nephor II.See! More of this! Just a silent shot of Tosh watching the news to imply that he had a hand in this! Granted it still doesn't make him that sus? Like at worst this makes him a bog standard 'do whatever it takes to win' kind of rebel against Mengsk. >Talk to Tychus.    The guy ain't right in the head, brother! I can appreciate some good, honest craziness. But that guy? He's got something broke inside.>Talk to Tosh.  >Check Mercenaries.  Goliaths are our next mercenary type.  Goliaths are kinda mid, everything is compared to Marines, but they're one of my favorite units so I'm maxing them out anyways.  >Talk to Horner.    I know... we have to be sure of our allies. >Talk to Hanson.     >Check Protoss Tank.  Check Research Console.  Our choices for the first protoss upgrade are a boost to attack speed.  Or a boost to life. Now, at a glance this seems like a simple choice between damage and survivability.  Except a 15% boost to attack speed means you're killing enemies 15% faster, meaning they deal, on average, 15% less damage to you which gives you a boost to survivability.  Wings is really stingy on having things show up in the Armory. >Check Armory Console.  The Goliath can get its old upgrade from Brood War as a permanent boost.  And the ability to shoot two things at once.  I buy both. This gives them 7 ground range, giving a firing line with my 6 range Marauders and 5 range Marines, while also letting them get some free hits in on approaching air units.   We have a two mission gap before the final Covert mission, but we've waited out the delay for the final Colonist mission and the next Artifact mission!  We still have Tarsonis.  But now we can go finish off our first mission chain and see off Dr. Hanson.  Apparently they sent in a specialist team — but they lost contact with 'em two days ago. Their bad luck, I guess. Figure we'll get hazard pay for this one...Or go rob the Tal'darim of even more of their cultural treasures. Space Rednecks? More like Space British. 
BisbyWorl fucked around with this message at 07:17 on Jul 22, 2023 |
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Jul 16, 2023 03:31
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I personally voted for whatever flying tanks meant because flying units can only help right now. We have plenty of ground mechs, but airborne attackers are a pretty big hole in our coverage currently.
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Jul 16, 2023 05:21
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WoL's very thin amount of menace applied to Tosh made the eventual requirement to choose between him and Nova have a very unpleasant "sinister criminal black man versus attractive 'noble' white woman" element, especially farcical when they're both former dominion assassins turned against it.
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Jul 16, 2023 06:39
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It's not a proper Terran army without Siege Tanks.
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Jul 16, 2023 09:08
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DoubleNegative posted:I personally voted for whatever flying tanks meant because flying units can only help right now. We have plenty of ground mechs, but airborne attackers are a pretty big hole in our coverage currently. I think this may be referring to the unit I used to steamroll the entire Terran campaign with. So I'm all for that. 
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Jul 16, 2023 09:52
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While it is fitting for the fascist UED to have a company named after sparta, I still don't want to hire them. Oh man diamondbacks from that upcoming mission. Another unit that's way too expensive for what it does. It costs an entire extra supply more than it should for no reason. Pieces of Peace posted:WoL's very thin amount of menace applied to Tosh made the eventual requirement to choose between him and Nova have a very unpleasant "sinister criminal black man versus attractive 'noble' white woman" element, especially farcical when they're both former dominion assassins turned against it.
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Jul 16, 2023 10:19
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I voted for slow tanks because the dig still seems like more interesting of a mission than the other
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Jul 16, 2023 11:35
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Siege (slow) tanks make everything better. And by better, I mean smoking craters.
LLSix fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Jul 16, 2023 |
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Jul 16, 2023 14:44
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BisbyWorl posted:No puppies or burnt down orphanages! Fun fact: according to the Blizzard StarCraft world building bible, "Tel'darim" means "Orphanage for at-risk youth." 
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Jul 16, 2023 14:54
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Pieces of Peace posted:WoL's very thin amount of menace applied to Tosh made the eventual requirement to choose between him and Nova have a very unpleasant "sinister criminal black man versus attractive 'noble' white woman" element, especially farcical when they're both former dominion assassins turned against it. Is Nova also against the Dominion? I thought she was a working agent.
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Jul 16, 2023 15:22
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Slaan posted:Fun fact: according to the Blizzard StarCraft world building bible, "Tel'darim" means "Orphanage for at-risk youth."  Are we fighting protoss street urchins?
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Jul 16, 2023 15:22
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Yeah, the (tosh route): other ghost isn't even a former dominion ghost. It's literally your enemy telling you tosh is totes a bad guy, and you should help her instead. Jim does zero research, and that is the complete extent of the information he acts on.
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Jul 16, 2023 15:28
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I don't doubt Tosh is a bad guy, but he's our bad guy. 
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Jul 16, 2023 15:32
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Sorry, Tosh, but I like Nova's unit more than yours.
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Jul 16, 2023 15:33
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Story-wise, sticking with Tosh is so much more sensible and accurate to Raynor's characterization. It's too bad his unit is so much weaker.
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Jul 16, 2023 15:39
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Perhaps, but his mission is much more fun than Nova's, imo.
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Jul 16, 2023 15:43
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I feel like the Goliath is just way too squishy for a "frontliner", it's only got as much HP as a upgraded Marauder for about 50% more cost to build as well as an extra supply. I suppose these upgrades makes it more likely to be in the back now which might make it better for an AA role and thus less likely to just die. The Spectre/Ghost debate I can't say much about although It's really stupid for Raynor to just go "oh ok, sure I'll do that" to Nova's request when you remember that Ghosts are all mentally indoctrinated by the ones that use them, be they the Confederates or the Dominion to be as loyal as possible.
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Jul 16, 2023 15:43
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I vote for Vikings, mostly because the seige tank mission is extremely funny when done as late as possible especially if we get nukes first.
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Jul 16, 2023 15:56
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I voted Diamondbacks, but don't have a strong preference. The Siege Tank mission is pretty funny once you have Ghosts/Spectres to cheese with permanent invisibility against an enemy with no detection.
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Jul 16, 2023 16:36
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Regarding Tosh, I just chuckle that a primary piece of 'evidence' for him being untrustworthy is that he destroyed a Dominion weapons facility. That's a perfectly reasonable target for a rebellion. poo poo, if the intel about the factory had come to Matt Horner rather than Tosh, that could very well have been a covert mission Raynor's Raiders pulled off themselves!. I know the focus is supposed to be on the fact thousands of civilians died, but c'mon, that's on Mengsk for building the weapons facility in a residential neighborhood in the first place. Frankly, Mengsk is enough of an amoral rear end in a top hat that he probably chose the location specifically because of the potential collateral damage/human shields.
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Jul 16, 2023 17:37
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Mengsk is enough of an rear end in a top hat to have blown it up himself. Or ignored safety standards enough that an explosion was inevitable. I agree that Blizzard is hinting (with unusual subtlety for them) that Tosh was responsible, but absent other evidence I would find it difficult to pin the blame/credit on Tosh.
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Jul 16, 2023 17:43
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It seems pretty clear that Tosh is supposed to be suspicious because he's a large Black man with a voodoo doll and a Jamaican accent. He's coded "untrustworthy criminal" if you're a cartoon from forty years ago, which is about where Blizzard's writing was at that point (and probably still is). The writers didn't feel like they had to do a lot of work to make him look suspicious because it's already been done by his character design, assuming you buy into the way these stereotypes generally work. I don't think they sat down and said "yeah, he's Black enough to be a criminal type", the stereotypes were just embedded so deep into their heads that they thought the work was done once they got a look at him. You have to have an ability to think critically about your own attitudes to avoid falling into those traps, and I have never seen much evidence that Blizzard's writers possess that kind of introspection. (The simplest way to avoid this: actually have some Black people on your writing team, and pay attention to them.) Even if you want to be more generous to them than that, they do a lot of "tell, don't show" where the way they try to make you be suspicious of Tosh is just to have other characters say "hey, isn't that guy suspicious" in the hopes that you'll buy into it. I actually like Tosh, but he is not well-served by the narrative.
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Jul 16, 2023 18:07
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IIRC, when the game gives you a choice, it changes things round so that your choice is correct. If you trust Tosh you were right to do so, if you don't trust him it turns out he was evil all along.
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Jul 16, 2023 18:23
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Qwertycoatl posted:IIRC, when the game gives you a choice, it changes things round so that your choice is correct. If you trust Tosh you were right to do so, if you don't trust him it turns out he was evil all along. Agreed. This is by far the most frustrating thing about a lot of blizzard's writing from this era.
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Jul 16, 2023 18:29
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Qwertycoatl posted:IIRC, when the game gives you a choice, it changes things round so that your choice is correct. If you trust Tosh you were right to do so, if you don't trust him it turns out he was evil all along. Given the context of the situations, I know there are arguments to be made, but this is the one time where I really don't feel like this is the case. I think there's a clear "correct" choice, and you're given free reign to trust the wrong person. Said wrong person keeps their word about the reward, at least.
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Jul 16, 2023 18:59
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FoolyCharged posted:Yeah, the (tosh route): other ghost isn't even a former dominion ghost. It's literally your enemy telling you tosh is totes a bad guy, and you should help her instead. Jim does zero research, and that is the complete extent of the information he acts on. The funny thing is that no matter which option you pick, reality wrenches itself into place to make your choice the morally and logically correct one.
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Jul 16, 2023 19:01
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Siege Tanks are a classic.
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Jul 16, 2023 19:03
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Koorisch posted:The Spectre/Ghost debate I can't say much about although It's really stupid for Raynor to just go "oh ok, sure I'll do that" to Nova's request when you remember that Ghosts are all mentally indoctrinated by the ones that use them, be they the Confederates or the Dominion to be as loyal as possible. You'd think he'd remember that, given how important it was to the thing he refuses to stop obsessing over.
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Jul 16, 2023 19:15
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Qwertycoatl posted:IIRC, when the game gives you a choice, it changes things round so that your choice is correct. If you trust Tosh you were right to do so, if you don't trust him it turns out he was evil all along. confirmed: Jimmy Jims is a xel'naga Hwurmp fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Jul 17, 2023 |
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Jul 16, 2023 19:15
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Flying Tanks! Actually, I have no idea. But flying tanks are the best. https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a35539961/brief-history-of-the-flying-tank/
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Jul 16, 2023 20:28
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