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Oh dear.
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Jul 15, 2023 13:26
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Reveilled posted:The problem is that it’s presented as true. Repeating just so stories and misconceptions about the past is how you get chuds talking about how we need another Sulla, or that dumb as gently caress “hard times make strong men” canard. Or, to bring it to something more recent, the idea that the USA more or less single-handedly won WWII, when in fact the Soviets did most of the work and the Americans mostly just prevented a soviet Europe. Or that the American civil war was started by North because they hated state's rights. So yeah, repeating the common narrative is okay if it's actually correct, but in many cases, the narrative is in fact propaganda. See also: portrayals of Jews in Christian texts after Christianity became the Roman state religion.
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Jul 15, 2023 15:58
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BonHair posted:Or, to bring it to something more recent, the idea that the USA more or less single-handedly won WWII, when in fact the Soviets did most of the work and the Americans mostly just prevented a soviet Europe. Or that the American civil war was started by North because they hated state's rights. That is swinging too far in the other direction. The Nazis would not have been able to defeat the USSR but winning like they did was another thing entirely.
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Jul 15, 2023 16:14
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BonHair posted:Or, to bring it to something more recent, the idea that the USA more or less single-handedly won WWII, when in fact the Soviets did most of the work and the Americans mostly just prevented a soviet Europe.  My dude lol.
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Jul 15, 2023 16:41
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Hunt11 posted:That is swinging too far in the other direction. The Nazis would not have been able to defeat the USSR but winning like they did was another thing entirely. 
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Jul 15, 2023 16:46
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Counterpoint: This is a misleading survey because it excludes the first choice of most responders - France
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Jul 15, 2023 16:49
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Also:
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Jul 15, 2023 16:52
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Reveilled posted:The problem is that it’s presented as true. Repeating just so stories and misconceptions about the past is how you get chuds talking about how we need another Sulla, or that dumb as gently caress “hard times make strong men” canard. Some narrative truths are inherently linked with bad ideas (Lost Cause, Clean Hands Wehrmacht) and others are more just part of culture and mythology. Big Strong Sparta, like many stories, has a bit of both.  I'm the giant land snail of Bordeaux.
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Jul 15, 2023 16:53
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Counterpoint: Thanks for the good laugh. France at the end of World War II was affronted by the fact that the US and the UK had any part in liberating them so they would have given the praise to Japan before giving any credit to the US or the UK.
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Jul 15, 2023 16:59
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Hunt11 posted:Thanks for the good laugh. France at the end of World War II was affronted by the fact that the US and the UK had any part in liberating them so they would have given the praise to Japan before giving any credit to the US or the UK. exactly. good to know the veil of hatred is lifted in france and they can now accurately describe ww2
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Jul 15, 2023 17:02
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They now have the hatred of veils instead.
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Jul 15, 2023 17:02
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Hunt11 posted:Thanks for the good laugh. France at the end of World War II was affronted by the fact that the US and the UK had any part in liberating them so they would have given the praise to Japan before giving any credit to the US or the UK.
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Jul 15, 2023 17:03
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I am so glad that people read my post which essentially said that it was an Allied victory and took it as saying that the USSR did barely anything.
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Jul 15, 2023 17:05
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Absent opening the fronts in Italy and France, and the German allocation of resources to build and staff the atlantic wall, and things like the lend lease program for things like food and logistical vehicles, it is likely the Soviets would have had a harder time of it. And that was apparently the opinion of Soviet command at the time as well because they were always pushing to have western European fronts opened as soon as possible. They might still have won regardless but it's pretty accurate I think to suggest that it would likely have looked quite different.
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Jul 15, 2023 17:13
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BonHair posted:Or, to bring it to something more recent, the idea that the USA more or less single-handedly won WWII, when in fact the Soviets did most of the work and the Americans mostly just prevented a soviet Europe. The US massively outclassed every other country on Earth when it came to industrial output during WWII, and even Soviet leaders admitted that they could not have won against the Nazi's without Lend Lease. Not to mention the US fighting the war both in Europe and the Pacific. Sure, the US absolutely didn't single handedly win WWII but downplaying it's contribution is equally inaccurate.
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Jul 15, 2023 17:14
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Guavanaut posted:I suppose it also depends what people believe as narrative truth and what people believe as material truth. People can believe both that dragons are unlikely to have ever existed and that Saint George killed one. I'm the little forest guy getting ready to defend Nantes from the Dragon of Tours.
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Jul 15, 2023 17:17
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Mustang posted:The US massively outclassed every other country on Earth when it came to industrial output during WWII, and even Soviet leaders admitted that they could not have won against the Nazi's without Lend Lease. Not to mention the US fighting the war both in Europe and the Pacific. Yeah, I made an rear end of myself, and essentially I'm just buying into the neo soviet counter narrative probably. So yeah, please question your sources for stuff, and try not to repeat stuff that's not actually true. But also, not having the Soviets win alone in Europe was a motivation for USA, right?
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Jul 15, 2023 18:08
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All sides in the war were conscious of wider geopolitical maneuvering after the presumed conclusion, yes.
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Jul 15, 2023 18:10
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https://twitter.com/osamabishounen/status/1679926857486204929?s=46&t=KMMfueYvpy-W7VUWexdGpA
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Jul 15, 2023 18:38
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And re:WW2 I thought at this point that the historiography had mostly settled on the conclusion that WW2 was almost single-handedly won by the Time Lord known as “the Doctor” who interfered in several significant events on behalf of the Allies
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Jul 15, 2023 18:40
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Tree Goat posted:https://twitter.com/osamabishounen/status/1679926857486204929?s=46&t=KMMfueYvpy-W7VUWexdGpA they really need to clear that panama constriction before their honduras burst
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Jul 15, 2023 18:43
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EasilyConfused posted:Oh dear.
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Jul 15, 2023 19:50
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The french did this
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Jul 16, 2023 01:05
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Tei posted:The french did this Goya was Spanish actually
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Jul 16, 2023 01:10
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EasilyConfused posted:Goya was Spanish actually The picture is part of the "Disaster of the war" showing the atrocities that the french comited when they invaded spain. Mass shooting of civilians. Hanging bodies with severed parts from trees. Soldiers raping womans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Disasters_of_War Tei fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Jul 16, 2023 |
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Jul 16, 2023 01:16
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Tei posted:The picture is part of the "Disaster of the war" showing the atrocities that the french comited when they invaded spain. Mass shooting of civilians. Hanging bodies with severed parts from trees. Soldiers raping womans. It was a joke...
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Jul 16, 2023 01:20
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Lol never change D&D
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Jul 16, 2023 01:39
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Negostrike posted:Lol never change D&D lol truly, and goons in general—what is a joke? p hosed up that goya committed massacres
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Jul 16, 2023 03:14
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BonHair posted:Or, to bring it to something more recent, the idea that the USA more or less single-handedly won WWII, when in fact the Soviets did most of the work and the Americans mostly just prevented a soviet Europe. Or that the American civil war was started by North because they hated state's rights. Without lend-lease soviets would have been fighting Germans with sticks and stones
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Jul 16, 2023 05:00
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Counterpoint: This would be more interesting to see different points between '45 and '91
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Jul 16, 2023 06:18
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Zesty posted:This would be more interesting to see different points between '45 and '91
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Jul 16, 2023 07:01
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I’m fairly certain there exists a broader poll, though not in that time frame necessarily, where the major wwii allied participants are polled on a similar question, and the us and ussr (prolly russia for the actual poll) both understandably inflate themselves, France a bit more balanced, but plucky lil Britain was like ya we’re 80% the most responsible
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Jul 16, 2023 07:14
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did i clean my sink? no, it was the sponge
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Jul 16, 2023 07:33
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Tei posted:The french did this Thank you.
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Jul 16, 2023 09:26
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Mustang posted:The US massively outclassed every other country on Earth when it came to industrial output during WWII, and even Soviet leaders admitted that they could not have won against the Nazi's without Lend Lease. Not to mention the US fighting the war both in Europe and the Pacific. So the US were the job creators of WWII.
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Jul 16, 2023 12:31
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Armacham posted:Without lend-lease soviets would have been fighting Germans with sticks and stones ZiS and Tula furiously churning out piles of sticks
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Jul 16, 2023 12:33
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ContinuityNewTimes posted:ZiS and Tula furiously churning out piles of sticks It's called hyperbole 👍  Seems like without lend lease, tula and zis wouldn't have been free to churn out a drat thing
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Jul 16, 2023 12:39
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How "lend lease" work anyway? Like, Ukrania is buying these tanks or are gift (doubtfull) or how that works?
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Jul 16, 2023 14:20
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Tei posted:The picture is part of the "Disaster of the war" showing the atrocities that the french comited when they invaded spain. Mass shooting of civilians. Hanging bodies with severed parts from trees. Soldiers raping womans. which parts did they sever from the trees?
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Jul 16, 2023 14:20
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Had the US stayed out of the war the Japanese Empire would've overrun Soviet Siberia and opened up an eastern front somewhere in the Urals. Or is this hypothetical that the US would've participated in WW2 but only in the Pacific, and ignored Europe?
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Jul 16, 2023 14:25
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