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One thing that I would like to add is that while workers don't benefit from attack upgrades, they do benefit from armor and shield upgrades.
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Jul 17, 2023 02:27
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JohnKilltrane posted:(bisbyworl I apologize for lifting your spotlight structure; I tried asking you about it but it got buried pretty quickly) see the funny thing is I was originally lifting your spotlight structure before I decided on my current setup
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Jul 17, 2023 03:47
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the starcraft ourobouros
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Jul 17, 2023 04:02
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JohnKilltrane posted:
fun fact: There are AI leagues for SC1, that is, people developing AI to play Starcraft, and one of the most interesting quirks is that because all your workers float and have hover mechanics, the AI actually micros it's workers to maintain their top speed at all times when returning minerals, IIRC.
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Jul 17, 2023 15:05
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JohnKilltrane posted:Yeah exactly. The only change I'm making is replacing stuff like:
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Jul 17, 2023 15:41
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Sally posted:the starcraft ourobouros And then JohnKilltrane was the Xal'Naga.
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Jul 17, 2023 23:28
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The merging is complete...
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Jul 18, 2023 15:14
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painedforever posted:And then JohnKilltrane was the Xal'Naga. Jim Raynor waited. The lights above him blinked and sparked out of the air. There were zergs in the base. He didn't see them, but had expected them, now for years. His warnings to Genrel Duke were not listenend to and now it was too late. Far too late for now, anyway.
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Jul 18, 2023 18:03
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JohnKilltrane posted:Jim Raynor waited. The lights above him blinked and sparked out of the air. There were zergs in the base. He didn't see them, but had expected them, now for years. His warnings to Genrel Duke were not listenend to and now it was too late. Far too late for now, anyway. So now I'm going to share it with the thread to read while we wait for the next update.
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Jul 18, 2023 18:49
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JohnKilltrane posted:There's not a lot of fan art or illustrations of workers so here's a Lego SCV, I guess. 
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Jul 18, 2023 20:02
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JohnKilltrane posted:Jim Raynor waited. The lights above him blinked and sparked out of the air. There were zergs in the base. He didn't see them, but had expected them, now for years. His warnings to Genrel Duke were not listenend to and now it was too late. Far too late for now, anyway. Rip and tear, until it is done... cuc posted:Coming to your aid, here's a SCV concept art from StarCraft: Ghost, where the operator is sitting in an uncomfortable position exposed (presumably for the convenience of your sniping), rather than in a cockpit. That's adorably derpy. The derpiest of SCVs. The Derp-CV.
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Jul 18, 2023 20:42
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cuc posted:Coming to your aid, here's a SCV concept art from StarCraft: Ghost, where the operator is sitting in an uncomfortable position exposed (presumably for the convenience of your sniping), rather than in a cockpit.
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Jul 18, 2023 22:43
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JohnKilltrane posted:Jim Raynor waited. The lights above him blinked and sparked out of the air. There were zergs in the base. He didn't see them, but had expected them, now for years. His warnings to Genrel Duke were not listenend to and now it was too late. Far too late for now, anyway. Repercussions of evil is an all-timer fanfic
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Jul 18, 2023 22:45
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Protoss Two: Into the Flames  En Taro Adun, Executor. Your defense of Antioch has restored my faith in the Templar caste. I must admit that Tassadar's desertion had shaken my faith. Indeed, Aldaris? I would hope that the Judicator would put more faith in their Templar brethren. Tassadar! Where have you been? Be silent, Judicator! There is no time to waste, and I have much to tell you. As you know, the Zerg vanished after the fall of the Terran world of Tarsonis, and though the Conclave bid me return home, I was compelled to remain. A powerful psionic call drew my attention to a remote, barren world named Char. Apparently, the call was answered by others as well. For upon Char, I encountered those who were once our brethren - the Dark Templar. Consorting with the Fallen Ones is heresy! Enough! Hear me, Executor, for I have learned much from the Dark Templar Prelate, Zeratul. The Overmind controls its minions through agents called Cerebrates. Strike down the Cerebrates, and the Swarm will surely fall. Executor, Tassadar may be right. If you can keep the Zerg occupied, my force may be able to penetrate their perimeter and slay the abomination. I pray we can trust you, Tassadar. Already I can sense the taint of the Fallen Ones' influence on your mind. You must return to Aiur at once! My concern is for the safety of Aiur, not the judgments of the Conclave! I will return when the time is right.Mission Objectives: Distract the Zerg while Fenix gets into position. Kill the Zerg Cerebrate. Fenix must survive. Some interesting... let's call them semi-revelations there? They're things we maybe could have guessed on our own, but it's good to have some confirmation there. First, that not just Steve and Kerrigan but the entire Swarm pulled back to Char after Tarsonis. The Zerg had what they wanted and so had no further reason to hang out in Terran space.  Well, that was a freebie.I guess really, from Mengsk's point of view, it must have reinforced his belief that the Zerg were some sort of Confederate secret weapon. The other semi-revelation is that Tassadar and Zeratul were, like Duke and Jimmy, drawn to Char by Kerrigan's psionic emanations. Also interesting that it seems Tassadar can reach out and talk to us, but the Judicator caste can't speak to him at will. My theory is the Khala is basically just Microsoft Teams and Tassadar can set himself to appear offline or in a meeting whenever the Conclave try to contact him. It's a shame it's not 2016 because this would be a great spot for a "new phone, who dis?" joke. Anyway. Enough chit-chat. Tassadar has given us the intel we need to stymie the Zerg invasion and retake our homeworld. Our start:  Pretty inauspicious, but at least we get a base to begin with, this time. Also note that a countdown is beginning until Fenix is in position. This kind of gives the impression that the mission will be like Terran 3 and we have to hold out for that long, but really it's just giving us an indication of how much time we have to get our army together to support him. Here's what a Nexus looks like up close when it's not on fire, PS:  You'll also see the timer going there. Fifteen minutes is plenty to get an army up and running. Our starting army, while smaller than last time, is still more than large enough to tussle with any advance scouts the Swarm might have, so let's go exploring:  Just north of our base…      Boom. Encounter resolved, not a single bit of HP damage. Also I don't know if you can tell from the screenshots, but those Zerg were burrowed. Like the Terran campaign, burrowed groups of Zerg will be a recurring theme here, and also like the Terran campaign, it's not going to matter. You really get the sense that the devs were trying to make burrowing cooler than it actually is. Anyway, this little excursion pays dividends because we see:  A second ramp up to our base. Now we know where to defend from. So now it's time to get things up and running:  Gateway… And continuing the trend of "Close-ups of buildings we've already seen but this time they're not on fire," here it is when it's finished:   Forge…  Cybernetics Core…   And some Cannons. We'll Cannon off the north ramp eventually too, don't worry. I meant to mention this last time, but it's crazy how much simpler Protoss (and Terran) macro is compared to the Zerg. Just keep cranking out workers until your base is saturated. Makes life a lot easier. Mentioned this in the Worker spotlight but we'll hit it here, too:  The Assimilator is the Protoss Vespene mining building. It does not require a Pylon (it instead powers itself through raw Vespene). While all this is happening, we're being hit pretty constantly by attacks like this:   Just a few Zerglings and/or Hydras, but of course having played the Zerg campaign we know that they can still get up to some mischief. Case in point, that Photon Cannon is not looking healthy, and again we can't do anything to repair it (okay, okay, I'll try to stop complaining about this so much. I just like my bases looking nice and pristine  ).Sadly we don't get a new unit in this mission - or at least, we don't get to build one - so our force will look the same as last time. We do get a new building, though:  It's the Shield Battery, and it's the other method Protoss have for recharging shields. Like the ComSat Station, it generates energy. It's able to then use that energy to restore the shields of friendly units at a rate of 2 shields per 1 energy spent. It's basically a Khaydarin Crystal that absorbs psionic energy surrounded by a bunch of spokes that Protoss warriors can wander up and touch to have their shields replenished. They're pretty niche - the fact that they're an immobile structure that requires Pylon power makes it impractical to use with an attacking force, so it mostly exists to top up the shields of any defenders. Still, we have it, and now you know. One nice thing about them is that while they don't smartcast, they can be activated just by telling a unit to Move onto it - you don't need to select the Shield Battery and manually activate its ability. With only a few minutes left on the clock, our forces are just about good to go:  We'll be filling that out to a full stack of Dragoons, then we're ready to rock. Another thing I forgot to mention last time: we're looking at Protoss' core army. This is it. It's Zealots and Dragoons. "Wait wait wait, we've seen all sorts of crazy things!" you cry. "Reavers and High Templar and Archons and Arbiters and Carriers and Dark Templar and they all seem awesome! Didn't you just spend like three Zerg missions panicking about how strong those units are?" Yes, they are, and yes, I did, but as rad as those units are, they all exist to support and complement a main body of foot soldiers. Whether you read that and think "That's so cool! I love that they're like an actual army where the focus is on the rank and file and you use powerful specialists to support them" or "Man that sucks I don't want to play a high-tech race just to focus on their low-tech units" is a decent indicator of whether you were destined to play Protoss. Anyway. With our strike force completed (a full stack each of Zealots and Dragoons, natch), we start to move out.  As you can see from the timer we've still got a bit to go but we're trying to get Dragoons down a ramp here and that takes time. More burrowed Zerg await us at the bottom:     This one's actually potentially kind of a nasty ambush because Zerglings can shred Dragoons and with the ramp it's hard to control your units. If for some reason you were to move out without researching Singularity Charge, this could do some damage. Fortunately our big range Dragoons handle it easily. It does, however, give us a chance to show our new toy in action:  Our Dragoon who's taken a bit of shield damage comes over to the Shield Battery to get a top-up:  The blue sparks on the unit indicate the Battery is at work. Fun fact: units can't move or take any actions for the split second while they're being recharged. Presumably to avoid building big battery clusters to perpetually recharge a defending unit.  The time has come, my warriors! Strike now, that we may draw the Cerebrate's eye from Praetor Fenix!    Phew. Zerg doesn't have all that much, but it's still a far heftier defence than anything we saw this early in the preceding campaigns. The timer expires, and…  Executor we are in position. I await your orders. En Taro Adun, my friend. We have engaged the Zerg's frontal defences. The way to their Cerebrate should be clear.Fenix and his strike force are ready to rock. That's why I said we don't get to build any new units in this mission. We get a sneak peak of something to come because Fenix, in addition to Zealots, Dragoons, and his considerably badass self, has brought along Reavers. Let's take a closer look:  These weapons of mass destruction are the Protoss siege units, but oddly, they're unable to attack. If you remember the Zerg campaign, they spit explosive Spider Mine-like Scarabs at the enemy, but each Scarab needs to be produced, first. They cost 15 minerals each and can be queued up like at a Gateway or Barracks:  This also means they'll need to be replaced once they're fired. Reavers can hold five Scarabs at a time (this can be upgraded, but we'll get into that once we can actually build them). When a target comes in range, the Reaver launches the Scarab across the ground, doing a huge 100 normal damage, the highest damage we've seen (and indeed, will see) on a regular attack.    Boom! Of course, the Reaver has ample downsides to compensate for this. They're by far the slowest ground unit in the game, and if that weren't enough they're also the fourth and final member of the Truly Horrific Pathfinding Even By Brood War Standards Club, or THPEBBWSC (with the other three being, in case you forgot, Dragoons, Goliaths, and Zerglings without the speed upgrade). So these are a real pain to maneuver. Fortunately - spoiler alert! - when we unlock these for real, it'll be alongside their absolute bestest friend in the whole wide world, the Shuttle. But for now, they're a logistical nightmare. Their attack is also an oddity. Their siege role makes them comparable to Siege Tanks, but there's a few differences there. First, their blast radius is huge, much larger than a Siege Tank. Great news for annihilating enemy hordes, We're gonna look at all of these things in more detail in the unit spotlight, once we can build them, but for now it's enough to know that this is a unit with huge drawbacks that are nevertheless easily offset by its awesome power. The most important thing to know about the Reaver, though, is that as it's entirely robotic, it communicates exclusively in chirps and whistles, which makes it very weirdly cute. It's just the most adorable little instrument of mass murder there is. While we've been gushing over our new unit, Artanis' assault continues apace.       The reason Zealots and Dragoons are the core of Protoss' army is because they're an unstoppable juggernaut of doom. Fenix's forces join from the north:        Ah, a glorious battle, Executor. These Zerg fight well, but still they are no match for the might of the Templar. But where is this Cerebrate Tassadar spoke of? Has it already fallen? I do not believe so. There! To the south.       Oof. Reavers outrange Sunken Colonies, but they don't outrange them by very much, so if you're careless like I was here they can still take a beating from them. The Sunken's high damage, good rate of fire, and Reaver's slow movement all combine to create less than ideal circumstances. Still, the barrier is down.  Executor, we have located what can only be the Cerebrate. Engage it, Templar, and do not show mercy, for this seemingly harmless creature is an architect of the doom that is upon our world. There it is! While we've heard plenty from cerebrates, this is the first time we've actually seen one in gameplay. They take the form of a big, beefy structure, with 1500 hit points and detection. As a kid, I always liked to think that this cerebrate was the player character from Episode 2. In reality, in both Blizzard's canon and this LP's canon, Steve is still on Char. Instead, this cerebrate is one we never met in the Zerg campaign, named Gorn, and is the commander of the Baelrog Brood, which we've been fighting.   I will remain behind and observe the effects of our attack. Return to the Citadel. I shall notify you when the broods become erratic. Very well, my friend.
JohnKilltrane fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Jul 22, 2023 |
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Jul 21, 2023 23:14
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A couple missing img tags in the buildings - Assimilator and Shield Battery looks like. As for the Judicator/Tassadar intro, I always pictured it like a work conference call. Tassadar calls in but doesn't announce himself when he joins the call, so Aldaris starts talking poo poo and throwing the blame on Tassadar, then Tassadar is like "oh by the way I'm on the call too, rear end in a top hat".
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Jul 21, 2023 23:32
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MagusofStars posted:A couple missing img tags in the buildings - Assimilator and Shield Battery looks like. Fixed, thanks! And haha yeah that's the exact vibe.
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Jul 21, 2023 23:45
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The reaver deals radial splash damage, but it's normal type rather than explosive. Additionally, scarabs won't hurt your units unless you explicitly order it.
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Jul 21, 2023 23:58
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It's also worth pointing out that, since every attack by a Reaver costs 15 minerals, carelessly extensive use of them can chew through a reserve of minerals ALARMINGLY quickly. Despite all their flaws, they are the favorite unit of a good friend of mine, and he's very sad every time it's pointed out that their return in Legacy of the Void sees them... rather severely outclassed by the other options. Beep boop. :3
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Jul 22, 2023 00:05
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I never internalised the obvious when I and this game were young: Reavers were never meant to move on their own.
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Jul 22, 2023 00:09
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Black Balloon posted:The reaver deals radial splash damage, but it's normal type rather than explosive. Oh, whoops. I meant to put normal but I guess I had a brain fart. Fixed, thanks! quote:Additionally, scarabs won't hurt your units unless you explicitly order it. This wasn't a brain fart on my part - I genuinely didn't know this. Can't believe I've gone all these years of both playing and watching and never once noticed that Reavers don't do friendly fire damage. Looked it up and you're completely right. That's crazy.
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Jul 22, 2023 00:14
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JohnKilltrane posted:Case in point, that Photon Cannon is not looking healthy, and again we can't do anything to repair it (okay, okay, I'll try to stop complaining about this so much. I just like my bases looking nice and pristine Well, you can destroy burning cannon and build a new one.
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Jul 22, 2023 01:06
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JohnKilltrane posted:As a kid, I always liked to think that this cerebrate was the player character from Episode 2.
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Jul 22, 2023 04:39
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JohnKilltrane posted:This wasn't a brain fart on my part - I genuinely didn't know this. Can't believe I've gone all these years of both playing and watching and never once noticed that Reavers don't do friendly fire damage. Looked it up and you're completely right. That's crazy. A lot of Protoss' splash has friendly fire* disabled, off the top of my head Reavers, Archons and the Brood War flyer. Actually, I think all** Protoss' splash damage doesn't damage friendly units. Terran Firebats don't deal friendly fire IIRC, while mines, tanks and nukes are indiscriminate. I don't remember about the expansion flyer. Zerg's expansion ground unit cannot deal friendly fire or it'd be unusable as designed; do they even have any other splash damage unit? (Mutas don't count, their attack is bounce not splash) *only for your own units, in multiplayer all splash will damage your allies if they're in the area **spells are always indiscriminate.
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Jul 22, 2023 21:42
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Omobono posted:A lot of Protoss' splash has friendly fire* disabled, off the top of my head Reavers, Archons and the Brood War flyer. Actually, I think all** Protoss' splash damage doesn't damage friendly units. Zerg's expansion flier does splash, but not splash *damage*. Does that count?
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Jul 22, 2023 21:43
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Frig, if only I'd known that reavers didn't splash, that'd have made using them a lot easier on me. I was always so paranoid about them wrecking my zealots.
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Jul 22, 2023 21:48
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Unit Spotlight: Dragoon. The Dragoon as seen in the manual. Cost: 125 Minerals, 50 Gas, 2 Supply HP: 100 Shields: 80 Armour: 1 (+1) Size: Large Damage: 20 Explosive (+2) DPS: 15.87 (+1.59) Range: 4 (+2) Speed: 5.25 Sight: 8 Fantastic durability, solid damage against ground and air, and above-average speed make the Dragoon an excellent choice for virtually every possible situation and a key unit in the Protoss arsenal. We've mentioned their atrocious pathfinding, and it's really the only thing keeping the unit in check. If Dragoons handled reasonably well they'd be unstoppable. If you know much about this game's multiplayer, you've probably heard about the importance of controlling these units. Protoss players live or die by their Dragoon micro. The logical assumption is that this is because their pathfinding is so bad, but you'd be… okay, you wouldn't be wrong. You'd be right, in fact. You just wouldn't be all the way right. There's another important piece to that puzzle. Like Marines and Hydras, Dragoons can research a ranged upgrade - Singularity Charge at the Cybernetics Core for 150 of each resource. Unlike Marines and Hydras, this upgrade gives them +2 range instead of +1. What this means is that upgraded Dragoons are going to have both higher range and faster movement than let's say about two-thirds of the other units in the game. In other words, with good micro these guys are absolute monsters of kiting, extremely gifted at launching a volley then scrambling out of reach before any retaliation can come. So that, combined with pathfinding, is why Dragoon micro is so important. These are a tricky unit to get a handle on, but once you do they're insanely strong.  The Dragoon as seen in an upcoming cinematic. Fluff: So, remember this bit from way back in Terran 09? JohnKilltrane posted:A single Zealot comes marching up. The reason Zealots burst into blue flame when they die is because their power suits are equipped with an emergency warp that triggers when the Zealot sustains critical damage. The blue flame isn’t them dying - it’s them being teleported away. Those whose wounds are treatable get patched up and prepare to go back out on the field. Those who’ve been maimed or permanently injured have two options: either they can retire, or they can elect to have their bodies permanently encased within a robotic exoskeleton - the Dragoon combat walker. And given that Templar society revolves entirely around battle, we can guess how many opt for the “peaceful retirement” route. So you’ll see the Dragoon’s face card seems to be a Protoss suspended in some sort of fluid, and when the Dragoon dies, that fluid goops everywhere - this is why. It’s also the reason why the Dragoon’s voice lines are things like “I have returned” and “For vengeance.” The Dragoon exoskeleton is controlled entirely through psionic connection - moving the Dragoon is no different than moving one’s own limbs (so, sadly, their derpy pathfinding does not have a lore explanation). More importantly, Dragoons are equipped with a Phase Disruptor that fires bolts of raw antiparticle and psychic energy to vaporize near and distant targets alike. The complex robotic walkers require a Cybernetics Core to produce, maintain, and improve, and no Dragoons can be warped in without it (huh. Is the implication then that we're just warping in the wounded Templar itself and providing it with a Dragoon exoskeleton on-site?).  A Dragoon readies its Phase Disruptor. Tech Fluff: The Cybernetics Core also has the technology to restructure the Dragoon suit on the fly, equipping it with a Singularity Charge that increases the antiparticle amplitude of their Phase Disruptor, allowing them to fire further. I will say I'm not super clear what's going on with Protoss upgrades. Terran it was all niche or cutting edge technology that gets retrofitted on the battlefield, Zerg it's all specific genetic modifications that are impractical and inefficient to apply to the strain as a whole, but I'm not really sure what the deal is with Protoss. Lifetime Ban From Golarion: Dragoons are infamous for their aggressive hostility towards pathfinding. We've talked about this in the past so I won't harp too much on it here, but there's a couple things worth touching on. First, I want to reiterate that contrary to popular belief, their bad pathfinding has nothing to do with their size or fluctuations thereof. Unit sizes are treated as consistent - the Dragoon sprite stretches out when it's in motion and condensed when it's at rest but that's entirely cosmetic. Instead, units with complicated movement animations (Dragoons, Goliaths, Reavers) have a big discrepancy between how much distance is covered between different animation frames, which makes the game freak out and have a hard time estimating when the unit will arrive at its destination, which leads to it not knowing how to properly chart their course. This is all review, but it is important to remember: Dragoons are incredibly difficult to control without practice. Give a stack of them an order and they’ll go pinballing around and head everywhere except where you told them to go as the game engine vainly tries to make sense of their route. There’s another issue here which is the “freeze” bug. Sometimes Dragoons will just stop and refuse to move at all. Basically there’s a certain window during a unit’s attack where issuing the unit new orders will cause the unit to freeze up and no longer respond to your Move commands. This can actually happen with any unit, but it’s generally only seen with Dragoons because they have a particularly long firing animation and therefore a much larger window than any other unit. To solve this, all you need to do is either issue the Stop command once (not three times as sometimes erroneously reported) or tell the unit to Move in the opposite direction of the one it was attacking into, but it can still be a bit of a chore that ends up adding a non-trivial burden to Dragoon micro. The other thing worth noting is that the Dragoon's pathfinding is the only thing balancing the unit. If it didn't require so much effort to move it around efficiently, it would be completely broken, almost unstoppable. So the question is always "How come in 25 years they haven't fixed Dragoon pathfinding?" And the answer is that'd make the unit ridiculously strong so it'd require some other nerfs to compensate, which means you'd then have to buff other parts of Protoss to keep them viable, then in turn you'd have to tweak aspects of Terran and Zerg as well, and fixing Dragoon pathfinding would quite literally lead to having to rebalance almost the whole game. The freeze bug, interestingly enough, was fixed. A patch early on in Remastered’s history addressed it. However, this change was soon reverted and it was business as usual for stuck Dragoons. I’ve no idea why it was reverted, but I assume either it had unintended consequences that broke other aspects of gameplay, or it was considered too much of a balance issue. Campaign Usage: As you might expect, these guys are going to be a staple unit for us and you can expect to see a bunch of them in every mission. They're a well-rounded unit that can handle nearly any situation. I don't have the micro skills to use them effectively and grapple well with their pathfinding, but the good news is that the AI for the most part won't be throwing much at us that will require tight Dragoon control.  A luckless Terran getting disintegrated by a Dragoon Phase Disruptor. Competitive Usage: Protoss virtually always gets Dragoons, and generally does so in conjunction with Zealots. I mentioned in the past update that these are the core Protoss units, and they complement each other incredibly well. So well that I do end up talking about Zealots a bit in here, and will inevitably end up talking about Dragoons a bit in the Zealot spotlight. Vs Terran: A lynchpin of this matchup, Dragoons are virtually mandatory here. They eat Vultures for breakfast, handily dispatch Goliaths and air units, and despite only doing half damage to them the speed and range makes them unstoppable vs Marines (you know, if Terran ever went bio vs Protoss). Terran has two main threats that Dragoons need to watch out for: Spider Mines and Siege Tanks. Mines are an interesting one: Dragoons with Singularity Charge are able to easily pick them off before they can connect, but doing so requires a fair amount of micro. Dragoons are clumsy and speedy and so left to their own devices are at very high risk of blundering into mines and getting blow'd up. A corollary to this is the importance of Singularity Charge - plain old range 4 Dragoons are in theory still able to pick off mines before they connect, but often just don't target them until it's too late. Singularity Charge improves not only their range but their target acquisition logic, making Minesweeper a much easier game to play with them. However, the entire time Protoss needs to be mindful that even if their Dragoons carefully pick off an entire minefield without having a single casualty to them, it can still slow their advance enough that Terran comes out better in the exchange. One of many reasons why Protoss players have nightmares about Vultures. Siege Tanks are the other end, and to an extent it's obvious - Siege Mode just pulverizes Dragoons. But the really important thing to remember here is that Tanks in Tank Mode have a range of 7 - slightly more than even an upgraded Dragoon. Way back in the Siege Tank spotlight we talked about the importance of not underestimating them when they're in Tank Mode and this is where that really comes into practice - an unsieged Tank is a mobile, long-range unit that's great for deterring smaller Dragoon pushes. And the fact that both Siege Tank modes can be such a huge obstacle for Dragoons is part of why Zealots are so essential in this matchup. In fact, the whole "Vultures and Tanks vs Zealots and Dragoons" matchup is one that has astounding depth to it. I don't think you get to be called a Brood War content creator until you've made something gushing over all the various different permutations you can see with just those units and how they can shake out. Day9 in particular has a relatively famous video about this, it's great stuff. It's in his Let's Learn Starcraft series on Youtube, which I've mentioned before but I'll encourage you again to check it out if you haven't already.   Mini starts by clearing out Sak's Spider Mines...    ...then pushes into his tank defence. Okay, this actually isn't the greatest example of Dragoons in TvP but I've been catching up on this year's ASL and it was too crazy a moment to not share. Versus Zerg: This is the matchup where Dragoons are the weirdest. Zerglings are small, fast melee units so Dragoons struggle against them, especially without Zealot support. Vs Hydras Dragoons are… generally good? But it really depends on how heavy Zerg is committing to Hydras, because Hydras are more resource and supply-efficient, so they can hit a threshold where they start chewing up Dragoons. And again, Zealots for support are often essential, as they make good meat shields while the Dragoons take free shots (as Zealots only take half damage from Hydras' Explosive damage). On the other hand, Dragoons do well against a lot of Zerg's mid-game stuff. So there's this weird arc where early game, Dragoons are good, mid game they're great, and then of course late game the combination of Defilers and Zergling attack speed upgrade makes them almost unusable. The result is that Protoss generally wants Dragoons in this matchup, but has to be judicious about how many they get and when.      A well-timed mid-game Dragoon push by Best overwhelms Soulkey's unprepared Hydras and wins Best the game. Vs Protoss: PvP is a weird, weird matchup. I also think it's the worst? I mean, in any asymmetrical strategy game, mirror matchups are always the worst. In that respect, I think Brood War is actually the top game on the market for mirror matchups. TvT is a great matchup that's fun, interesting, and rewards tactical thinking and precise execution. ZvZ is real boring when it comes to the big-picture strategic planning but nail-bitingly exciting when it comes to the actual execution of that planning - and worst come to worst it's over soon. To me, at least, they're more interesting both to watch and to play than something like, say, I dunno, Huns vs Huns in AoE2 or *shudder* Grit vs Grit in AWBW. PvP, however, is not quite at the same level. Dragoons do feature prominently in it, though, and that's what we're here to talk about. In fact, in a way this matchup is kind of a rock paper scissors of Dragoon Wars: your options are basically a) Dragoons + Dark Templar, b) Dragoons + Robots, or c) Oops All Dragoons. A beats C, C beats B, B beats A. In all three cases you're opening with a Dragoon push and you're trying to move out on the map, pressure your opponent, and pick off their Dragoons without losing any of yours. Then you're generally supplementing your Dragoons with higher tech units, but they're still the core of your army. Usually in pro games both players will go for the “safest” of the three options, Dragoons + Robits, meaning the higher tech units will be Reavers, and eventually High Templar. Dragoons remain quite relevant, though, because while they struggle against both Reavers and HT, they do quite well against the Shuttles that will very likely be carrying those units.  Bisu's Dragoons engage Tyson in a fairly typical early-game Dragoon sparring match.   They dance across the map...    Until they reach the bridge where Bisu has a Reaver waiting in ambush. In summary: PvT: An essential unit that cuts a bloody swath through a lot of Terran’s army. PvZ: A potentially powerful tool, but one that falls off quickly. Get some, but don’t overbuild. PvP: Will comprise anywhere from 70% to 100% of your army. As mandatory as Mutas in ZvZ. Nothing about the hero unit as we'll be seeing it in the flesh (...in the steel?) during the campaign. So instead I'll use this space to complain that despite their name, Dragoons functionally have more in common with cavalry than with mounted infantry.
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Jul 22, 2023 21:51
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disposablewords posted:Frig, if only I'd known that reavers didn't splash, that'd have made using them a lot easier on me. I was always so paranoid about them wrecking my zealots. Just keep in mind that while they don't damage your own zealots, they WILL wreck any allied Zealots (or vice versa, allied Reavers might wreck your Zealots) - not a concern in standard campaigns, as you are never given allies, but potentially a risk in custom campaigns or mods that GIVE you AI-controlled allies, like the occasionally-mentioned UEDAIP mod.
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Jul 22, 2023 21:51
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Omobono posted:A lot of Protoss' splash has friendly fire* disabled, off the top of my head Reavers, Archons and the Brood War flyer. Actually, I think all** Protoss' splash damage doesn't damage friendly units. Yeah I'd thought there's two units in the base game that don't do friendly fire on splash, the Firebat and the Archon, but it turns out Reavers are in that category as well. Crazy. Incidentally, not only the Protoss, but every single unit added by the expansion that has an attack does friendly-fire splash damage (although, as Blaze pointed out, the Zerg flyer there is a weird case of kinda-sorta-not-really-splash). So as it turns out, it's actually easier to say that there's only three units that do inflict friendly fire with splash: Mines, Siege Tanks, and Infested Terrans. disposablewords posted:Frig, if only I'd known that reavers didn't splash, that'd have made using them a lot easier on me. I was always so paranoid about them wrecking my zealots. Right? It's a total game-changer for me. Big props to Black Balloon for pointing it out, I might not have even known until I went to do extra research for the Reaver spotlight (and even then I might have ended up glossing over it).
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Jul 22, 2023 22:00
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JohnKilltrane posted:Lifetime Ban From Golarion: Dragoons are infamous for their aggressive hostility towards pathfinding. Boooooooo. JohnKilltrane posted:We've talked about this in the past so I won't harp too much on it here, but there's a couple things worth touching on. First, I want to reiterate that contrary to popular belief, their bad pathfinding has nothing to do with their size or fluctuations thereof. Unit sizes are treated as consistent - the Dragoon sprite stretches out when it's in motion and condensed when it's at rest but that's entirely cosmetic. Instead, units with complicated movement animations (Dragoons, Goliaths, Reavers) have a big discrepancy between how much distance is covered between different animation frames, which makes the game freak out and have a hard time estimating when the unit will arrive at its destination, which leads to it not knowing how to properly chart their course. But also, WTF? This is actually somehow more insane to me than "the sprites' size changes while moving causes issues." Like I could imagine someone deciding to go in and do deforming "hitboxes" to go along with different frames before choosing to do unique movement speeds between each frame. I guess the approach they took makes it less likely to have that weird glide-walking you get from the animation not matching the speed the unit is moving across the terrain, but still. Wow.
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Jul 22, 2023 22:33
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JohnKilltrane posted:The complex robotic walkers require a Cybernetics Core to produce, maintain, and improve, and no Dragoons can be warped in without it (huh. Is the implication then that we're just warping in the wounded Templar itself and providing it with a Dragoon exoskeleton on-site?). My guess is that the exoskeletons require regular maintenance or alterations to the army's gestalt psychic field or what have you to enable their weapons. quote:I'm not really sure what the deal is with Protoss. My random stab in the dark: buildings are summoned through in a relatively uncomplicated state with a core structure. They then have to summon or fabricate on site more complex equipment as needed.
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Jul 22, 2023 22:39
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Given how the Protoss armies are basically running 100% on energy weapons, I could imagine the unit upgrades being upgrades you make to the local pylon network to sustain different types of power draw. Still doesn't explain why you need to supply materials and require infrastructure to produce units (other than the obvious game balance).
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Jul 22, 2023 22:56
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Jul 22, 2023 23:46
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The gif that will never get old. Man, the way the Siege Tank curiously tracks it and then casually blows it up makes me giggle every time.
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Jul 22, 2023 23:53
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This makes me remember the maps online that were built specifically to teach players how to do various pathfinding glitches that would allow you to make units fly over obstacles.
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Jul 23, 2023 00:03
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I don't think I'd be cut out for Protoss. I like higher tech units. Funny thing is, I like the Protoss characters best, but dislike their army. And in WH40k, I hate the Eldar characters, but like their army aesthetic.
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Jul 23, 2023 00:16
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JohnKilltrane posted:The Dragoon exoskeleton is controlled entirely through psionic connection - moving the Dragoon is no different than moving one’s own limbs (so, sadly, their derpy pathfinding does not have a lore explanation). Are you kidding? That's a perfect explanation. You've got a fella whose entire job was previously "have two legs and swords for arms" and is now saddled with "have four legs and a gun for a hat". I'd like to see you coordinate crab-walking everywhere after a lifetime of standing upright.  JohnKilltrane posted:So instead I'll use this space to complain that despite their name, Dragoons functionally have more in common with cavalry than with mounted infantry. What are you talking about? They're (former) infantry, mounted (surgically). 
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Jul 23, 2023 13:26
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Kith posted:Are you kidding? That's a perfect explanation. You've got a fella whose entire job was previously "have two legs and swords for arms" and is now saddled with "have four legs and a gun for a hat". I'd like to see you coordinate crab-walking everywhere after a lifetime of standing upright. Honeatly just treat the mechanical legs like trying to ride a horse for the first time, just a pile of wounded zealots swearing as their dragoon chassis scuttles them the wrong way like it has a mind of it's own. Poor Dragoon legs, thought of larva and died.
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Jul 23, 2023 18:10
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I was actually doubly right, as a much younger man, about Dragoons. I was correct in saying that they were great, and I was also correct in thinking that their pathfinding was rubbish.
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Jul 23, 2023 20:09
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The poor siege tank is just confused about the Giant cybernetic crab that just walked on water and climbed an un-climbable cliff. Shooting it before it evolved the power of flight and doomed humanity was just good call.
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Jul 24, 2023 06:20
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Siege Tank don't shiv. I like the OG design of the Siege Tank over the SC2? Just a bit. It's not a "they changed it so it's crap now" sort of deal. I just like the older one more than the new one.
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Jul 24, 2023 22:28
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