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My download popped yesterday while I was at work. First.time I've been in the opening salvo. I normally don't see anything until a few days after release. Looks like they've got shipping sorted again so delays shouldn't be frequent. Aoe should have it up next week then.
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Jul 15, 2023 15:52
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Ravus Ursus posted:My download popped yesterday while I was at work. First.time I've been in the opening salvo. I normally don't see anything until a few days after release. I've got my PDF as well. What's weird is that the PDF of the new AP volume is screwed up for me so I can't download that, but I do have my Rage of Elements.
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Jul 15, 2023 17:02
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I see at least one big thread on the pf2 subreddit basically every week complaining about casters being soggy and terrible (especially against bosses) and I'm wondering how much is hyperbole/people failing to acclimate from DnD (both players coping with not being OP and GMs being sloppy with encounter building rules), and how much is a legitimate system flaw. I am slowly trying to butter up my DnD group to give a small PF2 adventure a chance, since I really want to try the system, but people whine so much about casters I am almost starting to think I need to either gently warn them about anything with spellslots, or plan to shower them with a generous amount of wands and staves and stuff to make sure anyone who picks a caster feels good about not being energizer-bunnies like the martials are. Maybe that's all a bunch of noise and they would actually be totally fine picking whatever, I dunno. I would appreciate some perspective from people with more hands on experience than me.
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Jul 17, 2023 01:52
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While a lot of it is just being mad at casters not being as good as in Pathfinder 1E/D&D 5e, I do think casters are a bit undertuned, especially at low levels, against boss enemies, and for new players, and especially for when all three are combined. Once you get over the hump of the early levels and get a sense of what spells are good, they're pretty much fine. I would definitely be generous with scrolls/wands early on.
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Jul 17, 2023 02:15
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Things start feeling better by Level 5 when they get 3rd level spells. Wands and Staves are a must as well.
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Jul 17, 2023 02:19
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Casters have attrition issues (unlike everyone but alchemists) and the system is designed such that a) big boss monster types are very hard to hit with impactful spells, b) most spells will have reduced effect (enemies will save against them), c) you sometimes have to play a guessing game to figure out what spells will even work because of the 3 save system, and d) spell attacks suck. They're perfectly strong if you keep in mind that enemy success on a save is the usual baseline, pick spells accordingly, and avoid spell attacks unless you're willing to use true strike all the time. Also, casters should attack enemy action economy or mess with bonuses and debuffs instead of just damage, it's really, really effective. Blaster or specialist casters may run into issues though.
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Jul 17, 2023 02:35
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You have to readjust your perceptions of success to understand why spellcasters are great in boss fights. First of all, generally speaking, most fights in Pathfinder 2e take 3 rounds. Boss fights, particularly if they are severe can go longer, but most of the time they are 3 rounds. So, a single tough opponent probably has 9 actions during its lifespan. Many of these are spent on high efficiency actions that pack 3 actions worth of stuff into 2 actions, so every action they get is precious. Secondly, the way a single higher level boss is a threat to a party is the four degrees of success system. Higher level mobs are harder to hit, thus harder to crit and are more likely to save and crit save against basic saves. If you go in expecting to hit a boss with a max level spell and delete them you will get badly disappointed. Your plan has to be hitting a boss with a spell and expecting them to successfully save against your spell. So the effect of the spell on a successful save has to be worthwhile to bother with it. Sometimes that’s half damage, sometime that’s something that takes an action off them this turn, Slow 1, Stunned 1, a wall they need to smash down, whatever. It doesnt seem like much, but if they fight is only lasting 3 rounds and you take 3 actions of them, you’ve cost them a third of their actions over the course of the fight and their actions are a lot better than your actions. If you get frustrated by bosses saving against your stuff, grab some buff and heal spells. Nothing makes a tough fight easier than a caster popping an on level heal spell into a melee character after a boss has brutalised them for a round. You spend two actions to negate two-three of the bosses and you keep your allies 3 actions up for another round of combat. Casters are great in boss fights, they just can’t solo them outside of some edge case poor rolling.
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Jul 17, 2023 02:36
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As a low level wizard who is about to get level 3 spells they feel weak in certain ways. I wanted to blast with acid spells like acid arrow but spell attacks are pretty bad. If a creature succeeds the save you waste two actions because you do no damage, and basically every spell is two actions. I can't even gamble one more spell at an attack penalty like melee, who can do it twice if they haven't moved. Wizards feel more effective when they are used for support to melee. Casting magic weapon, synchronize steps, invisibility and other support spells lets the melee characters effectively position and maximize their damage. Encourage your spellcasters to buy scrolls if they can use them because they are really helpful at low levels. There are so many situational spells in P2e and level 1 and 2 scrolls are pretty cheap. Wizards need more preparation and flexibility in spell scrolls because 2 spells a level that they learn as a wizard doesn't cut it at all. Wizards aren't the damage characters at low levels so its nice to be the person who can pull a spell out of their pocket.
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Jul 17, 2023 03:06
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Is dnd just all parties of 5 wizards or something?
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Jul 17, 2023 03:12
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If you want to use spell attack rolls in high slots, prepare to use True Strike or burn a hero point if you want consistency. If people can give flat-footed in any way, that also helps. Recently had a fight with an extreme solo enemy at level 6, and casters are absolutely the ones who carried the fight. The martials did damage, but the casters were the ones that kept the party from getting massacred. A lot of it is people coping badly from other editions where casters could casually solo encounters, though. Some of it is casters being brought down, some of it is monsters being brought up to be more consistent.
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Jul 17, 2023 03:12
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Most of my complaints so far about wizards are probably stuff that will be solved just by getting more spell slots and higher-level spells. It was a large power jump when I got level 2 spells because I basically doubled my spells per day. I know the returns are diminishing there but the spells will get better. I'm doing a staff build with true strike in my custom staff so I can use it when blasting, so I'm glad to hear that it is effective.
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Jul 17, 2023 03:18
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Could be worse, you could have a player bitching about PF2 being "too focused on rollplay instead of roleplay" when asked why they didn't burn a three action Heal during the beginner's box final encounter with multiple party members at sub-20%.  I opted not to clap back about "if you think that a sellsword wouldn't get pissed off about how tactically stupid that choice was", mostly because I was in the group as a favor to the DM who earnestly wants to move to PF2 and wanted a more experienced player to try and help smooth the transition.
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Jul 17, 2023 03:33
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Scoss posted:I see at least one big thread on the pf2 subreddit basically every week complaining about casters being soggy and terrible (especially against bosses) and I'm wondering how much is hyperbole/people failing to acclimate from DnD (both players coping with not being OP and GMs being sloppy with encounter building rules), and how much is a legitimate system flaw. some are really boring to play and not particularly good like witch and wizard. bards are op, sorcs are decent, i hear psychics are fun but haven't really seen em in practice. like others have said against bosses you're mostly hoping they only save and not crit save which is a pretty poo poo situation to be in so you mostly buff, cast spells with no save, or comb through spell lists to find spells with an effect on save that you're happy with. spell attacks are bad since you lag behind in attack rolls because of both proficiency and lack of runes. some spells also bizarrely require both a spell attack and a save and are just lovely. blasting sucks and there's a lot of trap option spells. the out of combat utility was also weakened a lot more than in combat utility, so problem solving with spells is harder and isn't really a thing as much
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Jul 17, 2023 03:34
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I houseruled that casters can spend an action point to get back spell ranks equal to their level (so two rank one spells at level two, a rank two and a rank three spell at level five) because martials using hero points offensively basically get an immediate MAP-free attack, which is pretty powerful once you add in time sensitive debuffs and buffs, while casters mostly rely on spells that don't interact with fortune rolls. It hasn't broken anything yet. Being able to adventure slightly longer before the casters run out of things to do has been nice. I ran Alkenstar for a party without any casters. It was brutal once they reached level seven. Spellcasters come with a really important assortment of tools that a martial can't really match, even if they don't deal fighter levels of damage all day long. Gust of Wind, Faerie Fire, Hideous Laughter, Slow, and Wall of Water have saved so many lives in the Abomination Vaults. I can't count how many times Fear has been the difference between a hit or a crit. Spellcasters seem incredible after playing an entire campaign without them.
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Jul 17, 2023 03:51
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sugar free jazz posted:Spell attacks are bad since you lag behind in attack rolls because of both proficiency and lack of runes. Spell attacks aren't entirely bad. Being the one who rolls effectively gives you a +2 modifier because whoever rolls breaks ties in their favor. Allies can also aid your spell attack roll and if you are targeting AC they can be made flat-footed. Your crit rate can end up being much higher with attacks. Doing half damage on a successful save might not impact a fight at all if the rogue or fighter ends it in a critical hit dealing massive overkill. KPC_Mammon fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Jul 17, 2023 |
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Jul 17, 2023 03:57
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sugar free jazz posted:some are really boring to play and not particularly good like witch and wizard. bards are op, sorcs are decent, i hear psychics are fun but haven't really seen em in practice. Slightly more detail on this point: a big thing for casters in 2e is having something good to do with your third action (which technically should be your first action a lot of the time). If you're a Charisma-based caster, you can rely on the combat actions that use social skills which have very specific, very useful mechanical effects. If you're an Intelligence-based caster like Witch or Wizard, you're good at Recall Knowledge which is... variable depending on how much useful information your GM is willing to give out per check and can run into some dumb speedbumps like "this named pixie has a really high DC for recalling knowledge because that's the DC for them specifically, if you just want information on pixies in general the GM should use the lower DC for pixies in general". (Okay, there's probably some points to be made about the relative value of preparing spells vs having an established pool of spells known like Sorcerer, but you get the point.) Lurks With Wolves fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Jul 17, 2023 |
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Jul 17, 2023 04:00
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Kyrosiris posted:Could be worse, you could have a player bitching about PF2 being "too focused on rollplay instead of roleplay" when asked why they didn't burn a three action Heal during the beginner's box final encounter with multiple party members at sub-20%. lmao 'i'm playing wrong on purpose it's called roleplaying' yeah then the group will kick your character out for being useless so roll a new one or leave rear end in a top hat some people are so insanely antagonistic towards any sort of charop at all and it's so baffling
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Jul 17, 2023 04:08
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Lurks With Wolves posted:(Okay, there's probably some points to be made about the relative value of preparing spells vs having an established pool of spells known like Sorcerer, but you get the point.) Scrolls are cheap and scale with your casting DCs so a prepared sorcerer usually ends up being much better than than a prepared wizard. Mostly because sorcerer feats are better than wizard feats. Hopefully the new schools will come with a bunch of new feats that make wizards a lot more interesting. Having a Thaumaturge with Esoteric Lore is pretty great for finding out weaknesses and bad saves if your GM makes recall knowledge at all useful. KPC_Mammon fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Jul 17, 2023 |
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Jul 17, 2023 04:09
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Take the feat that lets you use Esoteric for Any Knowledge Check At All and just become that weirdo with the fun facts!
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Jul 17, 2023 04:16
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Casters are not bad but I do think there's a laundry list of reasons they are unsatisfying for a lot of players (especially people used to casters from other systems). They've mostly gotten brought up already, though, so I will just bring up encounter design. Lots of DMs will want the big final battle to be a singular boss monster and that is when casters are at their weakest, so the fight that is most likely to stick in a player's head is also a fight which casters are not suited for.
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Jul 17, 2023 07:36
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I think a part of it is also that spells are definitely one of the least balanced parts of PF2. The effectiveness of spells varies wildly and if you pick bad/mediocre ones you are going to feel a lot worse than if you pick up the good ones.
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Jul 17, 2023 07:43
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The real breakpoint for caster effectiveness is level 10 where you can buy a Shadow Signet. Most monsters have either a fort or ref DC lower than their AC, sometimes even by as much as 4 points, and usually at least by 2. It makes spell attack rolls hugely more reliable. (Another reason why I think Paizo should do more 11-20 and 5-15 modules rather than 1-10, but mainly they should just scrap that item bandage and give casters attack roll scaling with their weapons like everyone else gets) Attrition is another major problem that gets compounded by spell selection, but this time it's focus spell selection. If you choose the subclasses with really good focus spells, you're generally a lot more set for a big adventuring day because you can increasingly lean on those. Mister Olympus fucked around with this message at 08:38 on Jul 17, 2023 |
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Jul 17, 2023 08:34
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Andrast posted:I think a part of it is also that spells are definitely one of the least balanced parts of PF2. Some spells are quirky as hell. quote:Approximate Whyyyyyy? What is this for? Even if the power fantasy you want to live out is "Rain Man" this doesn't get you there because it is rounded to the largest digit. Were they afraid someone would use this cantrip to cheat at the "guess how many jelly beans are in the jar" game?
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Jul 17, 2023 08:53
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That’ll be 10 gold coins mister wizard! Wizard dumps 6 coins out of coin purse and frantically casts a spell Uhhhhh here’s about 10??
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Jul 17, 2023 09:08
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That's just for if you're playing a vampire, duh
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Jul 17, 2023 09:26
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I am gm in the beginner box game with the family, and we just had our second session yesterday. One kid is the cleric and is pretty disappointed in the class. While the rogue and fighter are popping off big damage numbers, the cleric missed the kobold with only 1hp remaining, got absolutely mauled by it on a critical hit, and then missed again on the next turn, before one of the other characters came over to help. Then after the fight, they failed their medicine check to treat wounds and had to use a spell. Just felt like a big failure. Is there a way to make a level 1 cleric more fun? I am fine bending the rules in favor of fun, as others have suggested for the casters. Apart from healing up after battles, we have had a couple engagements where the cleric just isn't worthwhile during the fight. If there are any other actions they could be using, I'm open to it, as maybe we are missing something about their utility.
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Jul 17, 2023 11:10
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Tewdrig posted:I am gm in the beginner box game with the family, and we just had our second session yesterday. Most of a Clerics power budget is wrapped up in Healing Font. A lot of the time a tough monster with a lucky turn can delete a good chunk of a characters HP, maybe even put them to dying. A Cleric can spend 2 actions and undo all that monsters work. Midcombat healing is where Cleric shines, nobody has as much of that available, they are the "ohshit" button of PF2e. The big advantage is good or neutral can select any other spells they like as they always have the Font there to do healing for them. Now, low level casters tend to lean on their cantrips and cleric attack cantrips are mostly bad. They are improving in revised edition, but take a look and maybe give the cleric a top rank attack cantrip like Electric Arc in the meanwhile. Maybe give them a scroll or two of Purifying Icicle? Level 1 attack spells are sadly poor, you are much better off rocking Magic Weapon in your spell slots at 1st level.
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Jul 17, 2023 12:36
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Kyrosiris posted:Could be worse, you could have a player bitching about PF2 being "too focused on rollplay instead of roleplay" when asked why they didn't burn a three action Heal during the beginner's box final encounter with multiple party members at sub-20%. The role of a cleric is to heal, especially the cleric in the BB. So "roleplaying" would be, you know, healing everyone.
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Jul 17, 2023 13:00
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If you want to feel awesome as a war priest at level 1 you memorize magic weapon with your non font spell slots. Spend some of your staring money on scrolls of magic weapon, too, so you can cast it most fights. Also, stop adventuring for the day when the cleric runs out of spells. Continuing without a battery of heals and magic weapon is how people die.
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Jul 17, 2023 13:22
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3 Action Economist posted:The role of a cleric is to heal, especially the cleric in the BB. So "roleplaying" would be, you know, healing everyone. To be fair they were playing a Druid at that point, but still. Why would you prepare it and not use it in a horrible situation like that? Instead of saving three people's lives they opted for Tangle Foot + Command an Animal on their companion. Just baffling.
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Jul 17, 2023 14:25
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Facebook Aunt posted:Some spells are quirky as hell. The thing I love about Approximate is that it's just a worse version of Eye for Numbers: quote:You've learned to subitize, quickly estimating the number of items in a group with relative accuracy at only a glance. You immediately learn the number of visually similar items in a group you can see (such as coins, books, or people), rounded to the first digit in the total number. For example, you could look at a case of potion vials and learn that it held about 30 vials, but you wouldn't know that it was exactly 33 vials, how many different types of potions there were, or how many of which type. Similarly, you could look at a pile of 2,805 coins and know that there were about 3,000 coins in all. You can use this ability only on items that can typically be counted, so you can't use it on grains of sand or stars in the sky, for example. The way these are written really does make it seem like the designers were extremely worried about people using this to count all of the grains of sand in a hallway to determine there's too many and there must be a hidden trap door under the sand, even though that would absolutely kick rear end.
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Jul 17, 2023 14:29
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Kitfox88 posted:lmao 'i'm playing wrong on purpose it's called roleplaying' yeah then the group will kick your character out for being useless so roll a new one or leave rear end in a top hat I dunno, I don't even think that it's "charop" to expect someone to at least try to be effective within their niche and to make semi-reasonable choices. There's a hell of a difference between "I'm making what could be seen as the wrong choice for good story" and "I am making actively detrimental combat decisions where people will die."
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Jul 17, 2023 15:17
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Charop is roleplaying, because, I don’t know about you guys, but when I try to do something, I tend to try to be good at it, and it is reasonable to assume that my elfgame characters would too.
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Jul 17, 2023 15:26
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Yeah, like, there's a difference between "I'm using a greatsword instead of a better two-hander because it's thematic to the character I'm making" and "actively refuses to and gets hostile at the suggestion of making different plays that would benefit the party more". We ended that encounter with the critter in question on single digit HP - that three action heal the druid could've used would've clinched victory and made them the Big drat Hero. Instead, I get yelled at because I suggested it. 
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Jul 17, 2023 15:57
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I was wondering if I should give my druid who likes spells with attack rolls an early Shadow Signet and I think that it might be a tad overrated. I was looking at the monsters on the most recent floor of a dungeon that my party cleared and the lower of fortitude or reflex was higher than AC for 3 of them, the same for one of them, higher than flat-footed AC for another 4 of them, and only strictly better for 3 monsters (2 by a single point, 1 by two points). Add in that if you picked the wrong save to target you are significantly worse off against all but one of the monsters and it seems like a trap item at level 6 even if you got it for free. AC might scale more rapidly at higher levels to make up for weapon potency runes, but I'm not convinced you want or need this ring earlier than level 10.
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Jul 17, 2023 16:13
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Shadow Signet just sounds like it should be something baseline that casters can do. Or a meta magic feat that cost an action. Would encourage more recall knowledge use to hone in on lowest saves.
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Jul 17, 2023 16:33
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Dzurlord posted:I dunno, I don't even think that it's "charop" to expect someone to at least try to be effective within their niche and to make semi-reasonable choices. Yeah that's what I was trying to say, but posting while half passed out isn't the best way to be clear  Chevy Slyme posted:Charop is roleplaying, because, I don’t know about you guys, but when I try to do something, I tend to try to be good at it, and it is reasonable to assume that my elfgame characters would too. Kyrosiris posted:Yeah, like, there's a difference between "I'm using a greatsword instead of a better two-hander because it's thematic to the character I'm making" and "actively refuses to and gets hostile at the suggestion of making different plays that would benefit the party more". Yeah, exactly. Unless they're basically having their turn played entirely for them by someone who's trying to optimize to the gills there's no reason to get snippy and react like that. If you don't want to cast a clutch heal to save the day you're just being a stubborn rear end.
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Jul 17, 2023 16:34
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appropriatemetaphor posted:Shadow Signet just sounds like it should be something baseline that casters can do. Or a meta magic feat that cost an action. This would be pretty cool. As much as everyone is down on blasting, my party's druid has finished off a lot of low hit point enemies who would have otherwise gotten a turn with a well cast sudden bolt. He just prioritizes enemies likely to die even if they make a save. Being reliable can be really nice, especially after everyone else whiffed against an enemy with only a single hit point remaining. He seems to be having more fun playing a blasting druid than last campaign's gunslinger, who was mostly support because pistols suck.
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Jul 17, 2023 16:43
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Clerical Terrors posted:The thing I love about Approximate is that it's just a worse version of Eye for Numbers: I know, right. Reading the feat and the spell led me to think estimating numbers must be really important in this game for some reason. Reading more and playing a few sessions it appears to be something that never comes up? Like are there GMs who go "You find a chest full of coins." "How many coins?" "I don't know, do you want to spend 10 minutes counting them?" 
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Jul 17, 2023 19:36
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Thing is the spell isn’t even that much more accurate than just guessing. Like you could probably accidentally guess closer
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Jul 17, 2023 22:39
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