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eke out posted:looked it up Right, which also explicitly says that it is not routine. Hence the comments that this is not a routine thing. It essentially never happens at the state level and is not common at federal level outside of major situations like this one. eke out posted:it's a routine "hey we're about to indict you but technically you are welcome to come in and tell us why we should not" invitation that basically no one accepts quote:9-11.153 - NOTIFICATION OF TARGETS quote:Target letters from federal law enforcement are not common, but they are issued by federal prosecutors under certain circumstances.
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Jul 18, 2023 16:49
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Right, which also explicitly says that it is not routine. okay you can quibble over wording, it's routine enough that it's literally written into the DOJ manual -- which also acknowledges that you don't have to do this in the boring, normal cases that comprise 99% of federal criminal charges. it's not a weird or surprising thing in this set of circumstances, it's an extremely normal "give the defendant every possible opportunity to assert their innocence" procedural step
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Jul 18, 2023 16:51
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Color me newly informed, I thought if a grand jury called you you had to show up. Didn't know that in general that wasn't even a thing.
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Jul 18, 2023 16:52
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If you’re a witness then you’re required.
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Jul 18, 2023 16:56
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cr0y posted:Color me newly informed, I thought if a grand jury called you you had to show up. Didn't know that in general that wasn't even a thing. The whole reason behind the "a prosecutor could get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich" phrase is because it is intentionally one-sided. The prosecutor gives all of their evidence to the grand jury, there is no defense, and the defendant often doesn't even know that a grand jury has been empaneled and proceedings are going on. Witnesses are only interviewed one at a time and they can't even have their counsel with them directly during the questioning (they can ask to leave to consult with them, though). The grand jury is basically there to weed out cases with no evidence or obvious crazy prosecutions. It isn't designed to be fair. The actual court proceedings are where it has to be explicitly fair.
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Jul 18, 2023 16:58
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It is a thing that is allowed but is not actually routine, but also its not q bad idea to give Trump a chance to talk because he's a total moron and is pretty likely to say some stupid poo poo that will further incriminate him
Piell fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Jul 18, 2023 |
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Jul 18, 2023 17:01
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I'm not sure Trump needs further self-incrimination beyond what he does as a normal course of his business. But his lawyers are really freakin good at stalling, and "inviting" him to appear before then GJ would I'd think give him yet another opportunity to delay things further as he fights and appeals it up the chain.
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Jul 18, 2023 17:06
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Tayter Swift posted:I'm not sure Trump needs further self-incrimination beyond what he does as a normal course of his business. But his lawyers are really freakin good at stalling, and "inviting" him to appear before then GJ would I'd think give him yet another opportunity to delay things further as he fights and appeals it up the chain. Smith seems to really know what he’s doing and I trust that whatever they sent Trump, which we should definitely stop assuming was accurately represented by Trump in his post, wasn’t a mistake. I’m holding off on forming any other sort of opinion until we at least get confirmation from someone else as to what he actually received.
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Jul 18, 2023 17:19
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OgNar posted:Oh no, how did this happen? Oh my sister is going to love this.
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Jul 18, 2023 17:20
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Tayter Swift posted:I'm not sure Trump needs further self-incrimination beyond what he does as a normal course of his business. But his lawyers are really freakin good at stalling, and "inviting" him to appear before then GJ would I'd think give him yet another opportunity to delay things further as he fights and appeals it up the chain. it's not, he's not coming, there's no delay nor anything to 'appeal'
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Jul 18, 2023 17:22
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some kinda jackal posted:Stuff missing at Mar-a-lago? Just ask to go to the bathroom and sneak them out in your jacket. Because recovery of antiquities is run through the state department.
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Jul 18, 2023 18:17
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O this is loving glorious.
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Jul 18, 2023 18:29
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OgNar posted:Oh no, how did this happen? haha, they really did just take everything that wasn't nailed down. spoils of office baby
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Jul 18, 2023 18:31
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hobby lobby should pay isis to go get them
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Jul 18, 2023 20:31
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As all these cases procede, a great deal of new info will be entered into public record. I'm certain further charges will follow as a better picture emerges. Also, Trump is absolutely a flight risk.
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Jul 18, 2023 20:35
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Uglycat posted:As all these cases procede, a great deal of new info will be entered into public record. I'm certain further charges will follow as a better picture emerges. He's running for President and is a former President. Even if he was certain he would face consequences if he stayed, then his only real option is to flee to Russia, North Korea, Cuba, China, Cambodia, Cyprus, Iran, Belarus, or Ukraine and hope that someone there is willing to furnish his lifestyle to make up for losing all of his U.S. assets or somehow find a way to live incognito without ever being recognized and turn all of his assets cash. Neither one seems especially likely. He is a bad person, but not an especially likely flight risk.
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Jul 18, 2023 20:39
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Even if he was certain he would face consequences if he stayed, then his only real option is to flee to Russia, North Korea, Cuba, China, Cambodia, Cyprus, Iran, Belarus, or Ukraine and hope that someone there is willing to furnish his lifestyle to make up for losing all of his U.S. assets or somehow find a way to live incognito without ever being recognized and turn all of his assets cash. Neither one seems especially likely. I agree he isn't going anywhere but I am curious as to how Cambodia, Cyprus, and Ukraine made your list of possible asylums for him
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Jul 18, 2023 20:44
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Judgy Fucker posted:I agree he isn't going anywhere but I am curious as to how Cambodia, Cyprus, and Ukraine made your list of possible asylums for him Those are the countries without extradition treaties with the U.S.
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Jul 18, 2023 20:45
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That would be it then, lol Follow-up: just because there's no extradition treaty between a country and the U.S. doesn't mean that the given country can't deport a fugitive back, right? Nothing stopping Cyprus from stuffing them on a plane with a one-way ticket?
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Jul 18, 2023 20:47
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Judgy Fucker posted:I agree he isn't going anywhere but I am curious as to how Cambodia, Cyprus, and Ukraine made your list of possible asylums for him If he goes to Donetsk he'll be doubly safe since no-one will be able to fully assert jurisdiction
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Jul 18, 2023 20:48
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Judgy Fucker posted:That would be it then, lol No, they still can if they want to. They just aren't forced to. I wasn't saying those were likely places, just that those were the only potential places. The fact that those places are the only potential locations he could flee to is also evidence that he isn't likely going to flee pre-trial.
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Jul 18, 2023 20:49
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I mean I think the value of having a US President in exile (a completely unprecedented thing) and giving him the lap of luxury for a couple years while he poo poo talks the US and praises Putin or whatever would be worth more than any money or assets he could provide. There are absolutely places who would welcome him with open arms. He also has the means to do it immediately if he even has a whiff of consequences and is a huge loving coward. If it were possible for him to plea down he would be doing that but no way is that an option for him, the guy at the top. He is absolutely a flight risk no matter what decorum and established precedent might say.
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Jul 18, 2023 20:50
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:haha, they really did just take everything that wasn't nailed down. spoils of office baby But but the Clintons took some silverware...
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Jul 18, 2023 20:53
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Professor Beetus posted:I mean I think the value of having a US President in exile (a completely unprecedented thing) and giving him the lap of luxury for a couple years while he poo poo talks the US and praises Putin or whatever would be worth more than any money or assets he could provide. There are absolutely places who would welcome him with open arms. He also has the means to do it immediately if he even has a whiff of consequences and is a huge loving coward. If it were possible for him to plea down he would be doing that but no way is that an option for him, the guy at the top. He is absolutely a flight risk no matter what decorum and established precedent might say. I dunno. Outside of maybe North Korea, maybe Russia or Iran, the potential diplomatic headaches involved in harboring a fugitive ex-President would be pretty bad and not at all worth the propaganda potential. Hell, even Kim would probably be more than happy to ship Trump back in exchange for some economic concessions. Also, is there really any way for someone like Trump at this point to figuratively slip out the back door? Does his secret service detail answer only to him or do they have other handlers back in Washington? I have a hard time imagining they'd let him slip away, let alone aid him in fleeing. I'm also extremely dumb and may be showing some naivete
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Jul 18, 2023 20:55
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Judgy Fucker posted:I dunno. Outside of maybe North Korea, maybe Russia or Iran, the potential diplomatic headaches involved in harboring a fugitive ex-President would be pretty bad and not at all worth the propaganda potential. Hell, even Kim would probably be more than happy to ship Trump back in exchange for some economic concessions. Hear me out though, if he did try to run the inevitable Adam McKay movie would be a masterpiece. I dunno you're probably right, I didn't actually think about the secret service in my assessment and that is probably not something Trump is capable of working around unless they are T loyalists who have no problem with doing a treason. As far as the other countries though, I am much more certain that at least Russia and North Korea would welcome him, but like you said he would probably very handily given back for some sort of diplomatic concessions.
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Jul 18, 2023 21:01
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I've seen hospitalized defendants judged to be a " flight risk " because they had family out of state. Trump has multiple properties abroad and owns his own plane. He's absolutely a flight risk in any traditional sense of the word. He doesn't have to fly directly to Russia nonstop.
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Jul 18, 2023 21:07
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Professor Beetus posted:I mean I think the value of having a US President in exile (a completely unprecedented thing) and giving him the lap of luxury for a couple years while he poo poo talks the US and praises Putin or whatever would be worth more than any money or assets he could provide. There are absolutely places who would welcome him with open arms. He also has the means to do it immediately if he even has a whiff of consequences and is a huge loving coward. If it were possible for him to plea down he would be doing that but no way is that an option for him, the guy at the top. He is absolutely a flight risk no matter what decorum and established precedent might say. He's worth way, way, way more to Putin as a presidential candidate than he is as an occasional RT guest. He would also personally much prefer to be a wealthy American and US President giving regular speeches to cheering crowds in person, rather than abandoning most of his assets and living in exile entirely reliant on Putin's protection and patronage. Sure, he can afford a one-way ticket to Russia any time he wants. But if he gets on that plane, he's leaving a lot of stuff behind, including many things that are very important to him. I don't see him even considering that option as long as he has a remotely credible chance at the presidency.
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Jul 18, 2023 21:12
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Trump could just pull a Whitey Bulger and vanish in the US, but he wouldn't be able to survive without the constant publicity.
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Jul 18, 2023 21:22
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https://twitter.com/ZcohenCNN/status/1681398816421863424 https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1681398445347618830 Piell fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Jul 18, 2023 |
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Jul 18, 2023 21:25
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Trump could just pull a Whitey Bulger and vanish in the US, but he wouldn't be able to survive without the constant publicity. Additionally he's 1) much more recognizable than Whitey ever was, to far more people, and 2) physically incapable of keeping his mouth shut for more than thirty consecutive sentences.
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Jul 18, 2023 21:26
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Somehow I think his secret conspiracy to flee the US would be found out ahead of time somehow. Perhaps when one of the dozens of people who would need to be involved in making it happen rats him out, or maybe when he says so at a campaign speech, or in a TS post where he says when, how and hell probably the flight path. I'd love to see him try. Seriously.
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Jul 18, 2023 21:33
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He'd almost definitely post about it before he did it. Maybe to even brainstorm potential countries.
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Jul 18, 2023 21:41
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Which states had fake electors? I know of GA, AZ, and MI. Anywhere else?
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Jul 18, 2023 21:44
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In the most comically hellish timeline he somehow escapes to North Korea, wins the primary anyway, wins the goddamn election, only to be arrested on the morning of January 20 when he flies back to take the oath of office.
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Jul 18, 2023 21:45
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gregday posted:Which states had fake electors? I know of GA, AZ, and MI. Anywhere else? NV, and theyre going for some immunity deal https://thenevadaindependent.com/article/nv-gop-leaders-offered-limited-immunity-in-fake-electors-probe-testified-about-laxalt
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Jul 18, 2023 21:56
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gregday posted:Which states had fake electors? I know of GA, AZ, and MI. Anywhere else? Groups from Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, New Mexico, Nevada, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin all allegedly met in December 2020 and sent lists of so-called alternate electors to the National Archives after the 2020 election. The scheme is reportedly under investigation by the FBI and the Department of Justice, which have issued subpoenas to several of the people involved. -AZ Mirror https://www.azmirror.com/2022/06/29/updated-trumps-fake-electors-heres-the-full-list/ neurobasalmedium fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Jul 18, 2023 |
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Jul 18, 2023 22:01
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Lamech posted:NV, and theyre going for some immunity deal I would bet these indictments serve as motivation for any other fake electors to scramble for any immunity deal they can get.
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Jul 18, 2023 22:12
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Tayter Swift posted:In the most comically hellish timeline he somehow escapes to North Korea, wins the primary anyway, wins the goddamn election, only to be arrested on the morning of January 20 when he flies back to take the oath of office. He would definitely fly to his golf course in Scotland. They love me there, William Wallace (“BRAVEHEART”?), kilted men with tears in their eyes, etc. I sincerely don’t believe he’s gonna successfully manage picking a non-extradition country, at least not on the first try. It might not necessarily be Scotland, but it’d probably be one of his golf courses and that seems most likely to me. On the off chance I’m correct about that stab in the dark, I’m gonna add a second, contingent one : at some point while in the UK he will compare his situation the American Revolution.
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Jul 18, 2023 22:14
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:No, they still can if they want to. They just aren't forced to. Saudi Arabia loves harboring dethroned would-be dictators, and he's got a golf course there.
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Jul 18, 2023 22:14
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I've seen hospitalized defendants judged to be a " flight risk " because they had family out of state. He has a 24/7 personal detail of federal agents who accompany him wherever he goes and coordinate his movement with local law enforcement. Trump would have a harder time fleeing the jurisdiction than people who have to break out of jail up do it. Unless we think his detail has turned preatorian guard and would help him. I find that both extremely unlikely, as well as it being unlikely he's not also under FBI surveillance given the nature of the crimes.
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Jul 18, 2023 22:17
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