|
the_steve posted:Didn't they do a comic reboot where it was more modern? Like, Willow was already out and a lot more confident because she had access to online support groups and resources that 1997 Willow wouldn't have had access to? Yes. It was... OK? But then the aforementioned Whedon poo poo came out and I dropped it.
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2023 10:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 00:54 |
|
|
Asgerd posted:Darkseid however is not. Differences between Marvel Santa and DC Santa I guess, Thanos of course respects the holiday: 
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2023 14:18
|
|
|
Wasn't there supposed to be a Whedon property with something like, 'Girls with superhuman abilities in Victorian England'? I remember seeing commercials for it, then nothing. Did anything come of that?
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2023 14:23
|
|
|
GreenMetalSun posted:Wasn't there supposed to be a Whedon property with something like, 'Girls with superhuman abilities in Victorian England'? I remember seeing commercials for it, then nothing. Did anything come of that? Yeah, The Nevers. Had issues with COVID and HBO as well I think?
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2023 14:29
|
|
|
GreenMetalSun posted:Wasn't there supposed to be a Whedon property with something like, 'Girls with superhuman abilities in Victorian England'? I remember seeing commercials for it, then nothing. Did anything come of that? They made two seasons but took Whedon’s name off of it. Just more waifish girls with long limbs who can do high kicks and are emotionally tortured for the viewer’s pleasure. Also there are a lot of orgies for victorian times.
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2023 14:39
|
|
|
Arivia posted:And that’s after you sobbed like a child at ”Can I see Fred one last time?” "Would you like me to lie to you? 
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2023 14:40
|
|
|
I AM GRANDO posted:They made two seasons but took Whedon’s name off of it. Just more waifish girls with long limbs who can do high kicks and are emotionally tortured for the viewer’s pleasure. Also there are a lot of orgies for victorian times. Somewhere some scholar is feverishly plotting average number of orgies by historical period on a chart labeled by the sex and y axises
|
|
#
?
Jul 19, 2023 14:57
|
|
|
See I want all of that but no emotional torture I can't relate to characters that have problems.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 00:27
|
|
|
Talking about Buffy without talking about how Xander was the loving worst, I can't believe it.
Kchama has a new favorite as of 00:49 on Jul 20, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 00:42
|
|
|
He was Joss's self-insert, so it's implied.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 01:49
|
|
|
Xander's universally-agreed awfulness is so complete in 2023 that I actually feel bad for the actor (who seems to be a very troubled guy irl), and almost want to push back like "yeah Xander is the worst but there's an outline of something that almost makes sense as a necessary element of the show."
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 01:53
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:He was Joss's self-insert, so it's implied. which is weird because he directed an insane level of abuse at Nicholas Brenden
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 01:55
|
|
|
Narcissist bully hates himself most of all big surprise
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 01:55
|
|
|
Xander and his sense of humor was heavily based off of Chandler (from Friends) as well as his look (brown haired white guy in his 20s) which is why they’re named so similarly.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 02:11
|
|
|
Miss Xanandler Bong
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 02:12
|
|
|
oldpainless posted:Xander and his sense of humor was heavily based off of Chandler (from Friends) as well as his look (brown haired white guy in his 20s) which is why they’re named so similarly. Sorry Slayer. The hunt was rigged from the start. *gunshot* FALLOUT: NEW SUNNYVALE
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 02:14
|
|
|
pentyne posted:which is weird because he directed an insane level of abuse at Nicholas Brenden Which sucks as the actor was actually good, I just think they made him play a real piece of poo poo that the show didn't recognize as being awful.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 02:14
|
|
|
mind the walrus posted:Xander's universally-agreed awfulness is so complete in 2023 that I actually feel bad for the actor (who seems to be a very troubled guy irl), and almost want to push back like "yeah Xander is the worst but there's an outline of something that almost makes sense as a necessary element of the show." My favorite thing about him was that he was an army man for a little bit so he had army man knowledge, like an RPG character "Ooh! GM, can I use my army man knowledge check? I get +2 to knowledge checks on military... stuff."
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 02:22
|
|
|
I don't know, the guy's been a domestic abuser for many years, allegedly.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 02:25
|
|
|
Brawnfire posted:My favorite thing about him was that he was an army man for a little bit so he had army man knowledge, like an RPG character He basically knew the contents of the local army base (because he raided it while he was magically turned into Rambo) and that's it. Led to one of the best scenes of the show.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 02:32
|
|
|
He also knew how to work a rocket launcher a season later. I like that the show treated evens in one-off episodes like they had lasting consequences for the characters. They handled the “why don’t they just call x” question a few times too with Buffy’s army guy ex-boyfriend.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 02:39
|
|
|
Yeah it's hard to separate the good aspects of Buffy from the horrible armpit odor of Whedon but like, it did have them. Those were real and did make waves that are still felt. The rocket launcher thing was cute too-- "this demon cannot be killed by any weapon made by man" "this was written 500 years ago, are we sure it's comprehensive?" /cue rocket launcher blowing the demon up.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 02:44
|
|
|
"That was then, this is now." That actually was the scene I was thinking about. I just forgot about Xander there since Buffy did the rocketing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 02:47
|
|
|
mind the walrus posted:Narcissist bully hates himself most of all big surprise Allegedly the bullying was because Brendan dared getting swole and thus ruining the doughy self insert aspect of Xander (and forcing Whedon to come up with a narrative reason for Xander being buff now, hence his construction job).
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 04:24
|
|
|
Kchama posted:That actually was the scene I was thinking about. I just forgot about Xander there since Buffy did the rocketing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 05:54
|
|
|
AceOfFlames posted:Allegedly the bullying was because Brendan dared getting swole and thus ruining the doughy self insert aspect of Xander (and forcing Whedon to come up with a narrative reason for Xander being buff now, hence his construction job). Isn't there an episode early on where he joins the swim team and there are a bunch of shirtless shots of him (that made it into the opening titles etc)?
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 06:18
|
|
|
Xander's role was kind of interesting once Oz left, since it left him as a token normie tag-along in a group of superpowered women (and also Giles, but he tended to be more passive.) But of course the show was structured so that Xander actually got to contribute a fair bit despite constantly making jokes about his uselessness, so in classic Whedon fashion the subtext of this female empowerment scenario wound up being "women need literal magical powers to measure up to one schlub whose only noteworthy trait is having a penis."
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 06:28
|
|
|
the holy poopacy posted:Xander's role was kind of interesting once Oz left, since it left him as a token normie tag-along in a group of superpowered women (and also Giles, but he tended to be more passive.)
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 06:36
|
|
|
the holy poopacy posted:Xander's role was kind of interesting once Oz left, since it left him as a token normie tag-along in a group of superpowered women (and also Giles, but he tended to be more passive.) I felt the reverse, that after the characters left high school at the end of season 3 they had absolutely no idea what to do with Xander and gave him gently caress-all to do until his wedding plotline, at which point I wish they still had no idea what to do.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 07:09
|
|
|
Tiggum posted:Giles also had all kinds of secret knowledge (including the ability to do actual magic when required). And Oz was a werewolf. Xander really was the only normal human in the group. Although several of them started out that way, I think he might have been the only one who made it all the way to the end without becoming some sort of supernatural creature or gaining some kind of magical power? Cordelia was normal until partway into Angel, then she inherited...what was it? The premonitions from the one demon guy or something?
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 07:59
|
|
|
the_steve posted:Cordelia was normal until partway into Angel, then she inherited...what was it? The premonitions from the one demon guy or something? Yeah part way though the first season they were writing out that character and it was convenient to give the premonitions to her.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 08:03
|
|
|
Doctor Spaceman posted:Yeah part way though the first season they were writing out that character and it was convenient to give the premonitions to her. They didn't write the character out; the actor died suddenly.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 09:34
|
|
|
the holy poopacy posted:Xander's role was kind of interesting once Oz left, since it left him as a token normie tag-along in a group of superpowered women (and also Giles, but he tended to be more passive.) I see the read but I think you're reaching for it. Buffy as a show and the character of Xander suck for much more obvious reasons-- he's an entitled prick the first three seasons and in the back half his role as "the heart" feels a bit forced outside of when he talks Willow of the edge, but other than that his uselessness is a punchline and after getting a proper girlfriend he mostly blends into the background choir. Jedit posted:They didn't write the character out; the actor died suddenly. I think he died shortly after leaving the show, which he left because of hardcore alcoholism. Either way yeah that character was out early and they mostly did a good job expanding the premonition gimmick with Cordelia, until Charisma Carpenter got pregnant.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 09:40
|
|
|
Jedit posted:They didn't write the character out; the actor died suddenly. The actor died in 2002 and his character died a heroic death in 1999.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 09:41
|
|
|
mind the walrus posted:I see the read but I think you're reaching for it. Buffy as a show and the character of Xander suck for much more obvious reasons-- he's an entitled prick the first three seasons and in the back half his role as "the heart" feels a bit forced outside of when he talks Willow of the edge. He's still an entitled prick in the back half, which is why he takes part in couping Buffy the way he does.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 09:42
|
|
|
Doctor Spaceman posted:The actor died in 2002 and his character died a heroic death in 1999. You're right, I only half remembered it and walrus has remembered it (almost) correctly - they had to let Quinn go because of his drug problems, but he didn't die of an OD until several years later. Either way, it was an enforced rewrite.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 09:52
|
|
|
Kchama posted:He's still an entitled prick in the back half, which is why he takes part in couping Buffy the way he does. I mean, everyone coups Buffy there, and it's fairly understandable why they do that-- Xander also literally loses an eye in the process after years of fights where they never lose anything, so an element of innocence that he frankly should have lost years ago has finally come home and he's doing what he can to feel a sense of control is a hopeless situation. I think I'm soft on the character because I recognize and remember that adolescent part of me that was also an entitled prick, and really wish one of Whedon's writers could have dug into that better. Like I don't approve of Xander as a character, but I think that the archetype has educational, comedic, and dramatic value if utilized properly-- which he was not. If the show had come out even a few years later they could have done some really, really funny work with "the ladder theory." I can see that way too clearly in my head.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 10:47
|
|
|
mind the walrus posted:I mean, everyone coups Buffy there, and it's fairly understandable why they do that-- Xander also literally loses an eye in the process after years of fights where they never lose anything, so an element of innocence that he frankly should have lost years ago has finally come home and he's doing what he can to feel a sense of control is a hopeless situation. He was in his twenties at the time. It was understandable for the rookie Slayers whose first foray into combat went awful. The myth of the unbeatable Slayer was shattered and they thought she was misleading them. But Xander's been in that sort of thing for ages and was actually an adult.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 10:54
|
|
|
You're not wrong, but when you consider that they went through literally hundreds of fights and almost always came out completely unscathed you do have to consider the long-term effect that has on a psyche, even a grown adult. Then couple that with a real physical health loss, probably for the first time in his life. I don't care how mature you think you are, when that sense of mortality and fragility and "oh that's never coming back" actually hits for the very first time, it hits hard. There's a reason people say "you don't really know someone until you've seen them very sick, very poor, and how they interact with people who can offer them nothing." Now add onto it that this was the latest in a long line of struggling failures against an enemy that only seems to grow in power, complete with the actual deaths of children, and the entire rest of the room is chiming in on how yeah the root problem was a failure of leadership. Emotional reactions like that can and do happen and you kind-of want those in fictional characters. That's what makes the moment sell. Like Xander's character sucks, no two ways about it, but that moment is understandable.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 11:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 00:54 |
|
|
Kchama posted:He was in his twenties at the time. It was understandable for the rookie Slayers whose first foray into combat went awful. The myth of the unbeatable Slayer was shattered and they thought she was misleading them. Yeah sure but then her plan is to just go right back in after they all got utterly brutalised, including her and she doesn't explain why it's going to go differently. I mean, it's not like the plan needs his say so or not anyway, the people who are actually going to be going aren't down so it's not going to happen anyway but he's pretty within his rights to say "doesn't seem to be a great one to me". I think that final season biffs it quite hard in a lot of ways, they should have built up there being tension in the group the whole season and cranking up the pressure, actually making it seem like it's an unwinnable, pointless fight that Buffy is trying to win. The coup scene in isolation makes sense to me though. I think Xander actually gets it a bit too hard in the other way these days. Like at the time people pointing out his toxic masculinity and entitlement were in the minority (I assume, that kinda thing, or at least that way of talking about it wasn't remotely on my radar when I was 14), now going back it's extremely obvious of course and a teenager being like that is also real but he's not that 100% of the time, realistically in my opinion. He has moments of sweetness and camaraderie as well and grows into a pretty decent character who has it relatively together, living in a nice apartment with a job he's actually good at. Deciding not to go through with a marriage he's not entirely sure about is relatively mature for example, he just does it extremely badly and then it gets way worse. Also happened in the season where the writers were working out their personal issues and putting every character through the depressive misery simulator. thebardyspoon has a new favorite as of 11:21 on Jul 20, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2023 11:13
|
|