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redshirt posted:That's Star Trek though, is it not? Forget realism, it's about an optimism about our future. And that first episode of SNW was optimism defined. No, I don't think so. TNG did try to make some sort of sense. Picard solving everything with a speech is a caricature of the show, not the actuality. Ultimately, I guess I just don't yet trust the show to understand why the old stuff was good, so I am skeptical that even a ripoff is going to turn out all that well. Still, I like Pike quite a bit. He's doing a lot of that "drat the regulations" stuff that people incorrectly attribute to Kirk. Having him face some actual consequences for that could be interesting as long as they don't just redo A Measure of a Man with Number One instead of Data. thotsky fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Jul 19, 2023 |
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Jul 19, 2023 23:34
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Episode: *depicts World War 3 starting in the very near future; multiple cities are shown disappearing under nuclear hellfire* Goons: "Such pure, inspiring optimism!"
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Jul 19, 2023 23:37
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thotsky posted:No, I don't think so. TNG did try to make some sort of sense. Picard solving everything with a speech is a caricature of the show, not the actuality. Id say our memories of TNG or TOS are also caricatures of the shows, and not the actuality. Thus SNW might be more "Trek" then your memories of Trek.
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Jul 19, 2023 23:37
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redshirt posted:Id say our memories of TNG or TOS are also caricatures of the shows, and not the actuality. Thus SNW might be more "Trek" then your memories of Trek. They could have had the episode address the material concerns behind the conflict. Like, even in the TNG episode they're cribbing a lot from here, where Riker disguises himself as an alien, gets discovered, and Picard has to reveal the enterprise and have this rousing and reasoned talk with the liberal president of a near-warp species. In the end that society decides they're just not ready yet. The "optimism" is very measured. thotsky fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Jul 19, 2023 |
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Jul 19, 2023 23:43
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Powered Descent posted:Episode: *depicts World War 3 starting in the very near future; multiple cities are shown disappearing under nuclear hellfire* "Things get really, really bad before they get better" has been a thing in Trek from the beginning
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Jul 19, 2023 23:54
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thotsky posted:They could have had the episode address the material concerns behind the conflict. Like, even in the TNG episode they're cribbing a lot from here, where Riker disguises himself as an alien, gets discovered, and Picard has to reveal the enterprise and have this rousing and reasoned talk with the liberal president of a near-warp species. In the end that society decides they're just not ready yet. The "optimism" is very measured. I feel like they did. The two sides had been in conflict for generations. One side got access to warp technology and made a bomb of it. The world was thus on the brink of destruction because of the inadvertent influence of the Federation.
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Jul 19, 2023 23:58
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Powered Descent posted:Episode: *depicts World War 3 starting in the very near future; multiple cities are shown disappearing under nuclear hellfire* Star Trek is a well known franchise depicting the events of only the near future and never talking about an ideal or vision for what happens after those events.
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Jul 20, 2023 00:00
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Like, I am not saying they had to take the obvious route of having this world unite over their fear and hatred of the new threat that The Federation presents, but give us some meaningful reason for why this state, which has a long history of suppressing its enemy, and now has the means to do so, won't just go ahead and do that. We have tons of scientists and leaders telling us right now that we're going to kill ourselves with climate change and nobody gives a poo poo. We have lots of historical examples of the horrors of war and yet we keep having them. What is is about The Enterprise, or Pike, or The Federation, that turns these people around? The utopia of Star Trek's Earth is not something that came about because someone showed up and made a somewhat flippant speech while at the brink of war. We're told again and again in classic Star Trek that it came about after repeated disasters and tons od social progress. It was hard fought, and it requires vigilance not to slip back into those old patterns. Yes, there's an undeniable optimism in Star Trek and that is part of what makes it great, but setting this situation up, making a short speech and cutting to a 10 second montage of a society having turned things around is still silly. thotsky fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Jul 20, 2023 |
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Jul 20, 2023 00:01
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thotsky posted:as long as they don't just redo A Measure of a Man with Number One instead of Data.  redshirt posted:Id say our memories of TNG or TOS are also caricatures of the shows, and not the actuality. Thus SNW might be more "Trek" then your memories of Trek. You make it sound like people haven't watched these shows since they literally aired on broadcast television. I've seen both of them in full within the last three months and I agree with thotsky.
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Jul 20, 2023 00:03
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thotsky posted:Like, I am not saying they had to take the obvious route of having this world unite over their fear and hatred of the new threat that The Federation presents, but give us some meaningful reason for why this state, which has a long history of suppressing its enemy, and now has the means to do so, won't just go ahead and do that. So you'd prefer gritty realism? The acceptance that there's no way we'll come together to solve the world's problems? Because I agree with that, realistically. Just saying the Trek future is different. Not ours.
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Jul 20, 2023 00:07
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McSpanky posted:
Thank you for your service.
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Jul 20, 2023 00:08
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redshirt posted:So you'd prefer gritty realism? The acceptance that there's no way we'll come together to solve the world's problems? There's a ton of ways to improve it. If you want to make your point about this being a MAD scenario, at least have a scene where Pike reveals that there are in fact two warp signatures on the planet. The rebels also have the bomb! You want to break the prime directive? Identify what the material conditions underlying the conflict is about. Have Pike give them the tech to address it, have that inevitably blow up in both factions faces because of the missing social progress, then do your rousing speech. End on a sad, but hopeful note that they've taken their first steps towards the light.
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Jul 20, 2023 00:26
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a society smart enough to figure out antimatter bombs from watching ufos fly around, but too dumb to invent a-bombs honestly S1E1 had strong pilot energy, its probably not a good standard to judge SNW on either way. It might actually be best compared to "A Piece of the Action" in terms of plot.... I like the rest of S1 a lot better. Stargate SG-1 did the 'locals gaining power with offworld tech or potentially so' plot a bunch of times and i think all of them were better than S1E1. Well, most of them. TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Jul 20, 2023 |
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Jul 20, 2023 00:31
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Everyone knows Star Trek doesn't start getting good until Season 3.
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Jul 20, 2023 00:38
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redshirt posted:So you'd prefer gritty realism? The acceptance that there's no way we'll come together to solve the world's problems? The Trek future is literally post-apocalyptic. We do come together to solve the world's problems, after unleashing a wave of nuclear hellfire that almost destroys civilization entirely. First one, then the other. Acknowledging that, and how severely dysfunctional things must've been in the time leading up to that breaking point, isn't "gritty" realism. It just means that addressing those kinds of enormous problems should take more work than a fancy powerpoint presentation.
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Jul 20, 2023 00:39
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I always thought it was funny how Riker says in FC “Most of the major cities destroyed, few governments left…600 million dead…” That number should probably be a lot higher right?
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Jul 20, 2023 00:55
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McSpanky posted:The Trek future is literally post-apocalyptic. We do come together to solve the world's problems, after unleashing a wave of nuclear hellfire that almost destroys civilization entirely. First one, then the other. Acknowledging that, and how severely dysfunctional things must've been in the time leading up to that breaking point, isn't "gritty" realism. It just means that addressing those kinds of enormous problems should take more work than a fancy powerpoint presentation. And in SNW, they are many years from that reality. Hence their actions.
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Jul 20, 2023 01:04
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So somehow, while yelling about how they came out of their apocalypse, and that struggle, like doesn't acknowledge the aftermath of the apocalypse, and their struggle
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Jul 20, 2023 01:09
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CainFortea posted:So somehow, while yelling about how they came out of their apocalypse, and that struggle, like doesn't acknowledge the aftermath of the apocalypse, and their struggle Well the Vulcans really solved all the issues, didn't they?
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Jul 20, 2023 01:11
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I liked the guy that played Tosk, he was very good at being a lizard man
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Jul 20, 2023 01:28
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alexandriao posted:Was it ever made clear whether or not Data's sex parts functioned when he was in pieces? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byDiILrNbM4
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Jul 20, 2023 02:03
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Non Compos Mentis posted:I liked the guy that played Tosk, he was very good at being a lizard man Yeah he was a pretty neat character.
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Jul 20, 2023 02:04
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Powered Descent posted:Episode: *depicts World War 3 starting in the very near future; multiple cities are shown disappearing under nuclear hellfire* Well, yeah. The idea of optimism is no matter how bad or poo poo things get, we can make it better. Trek is showing them literally going through worse than we have, and still somehow getting better from that
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Jul 20, 2023 02:05
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The Ferenginar Liquidators
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Jul 20, 2023 02:08
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thotsky posted:Like, I am not saying they had to take the obvious route of having this world unite over their fear and hatred of the new threat that The Federation presents, but give us some meaningful reason for why this state, which has a long history of suppressing its enemy, and now has the means to do so, won't just go ahead and do that. Id imagine it was the guy who literally apparated in front of them showing them a future and telling them to not do a war, If Zeus showed up and said the same thing I think people would listen too thotsky posted:The utopia of Star Trek's Earth is not something that came about because someone showed up and made a somewhat flippant speech while at the brink of war. I mean, canonically in Trek the defining moment that brought humanity together was first contact with the Vulcans
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Jul 20, 2023 02:08
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alexandriao posted:Well, yeah. Right? They were a world about to destroy itself. Because of our warp tech. That's why Pike intervened.
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Jul 20, 2023 02:10
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First of May posted:Everyone knows Star Trek doesn't start getting good until Season 3. This is a flat-out falsehood. The original series has the best first season of all Trek and it isn't even close. DS9's first season is more good than bad. Lower Decks was firing on all cylinders by the third episode. Prodigy was fire right out of the gate. I'm cooler on Strange New Worlds' first season than most, but it's still above-average. It's TNG, Voyager and Enterprise that faceplanted at the start. TNG recovered in season 3, Voyager didn't begin becoming even passably mediocre until season 4 and Enterprise never even got to "average;" the much-lauded season 4 is coated in fanwank. Picard and Discovery never got good.
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Jul 20, 2023 02:16
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thotsky posted:There's a ton of ways to improve it. If you want to make your point about this being a MAD scenario, at least have a scene where Pike reveals that there are in fact two warp signatures on the planet. The rebels also have the bomb! You're forgetting that this is an antidote to literally almost 10+ seasons of grimdark Trek. The first episode isn't meant to be a good episode it is meant to set the tone and cadence for the rest of the show and be a somewhat perhaps parodied example of that to show executives and writers and the audience the direction they want to take. A more subtle approach would not have worked in the cultural context because fans who followed Trek religiously were loving exhausted by the constant unrelenting "maybe things will be better, OH WAIT gently caress YOU THEY'LL BE poo poo". It was important to show pure, undistilled, even naive optimism in the first episode because it was a direct counter to hundreds of hours of grimdark, and because Trek in it's purest form is the naive optimism that things can improve for the better. Maybe we can have our cake and eat it, or at least replicate more. I'd even wager: Anything else, and most people would have just seen more grimdark and turned it off. Most people were super techy about SNW because they fundamentally did not trust that Kurtzman(?) and co could do an Optimism. You capture the audience first, and then you can get more nuanced with it. But the state of Trek at the time meant that losing those people in the first episode meant it would have taken a season or two to recover viewers. This is like people arguing for two decades that the Star Wars prequels were poo poo, and we really need to return to the originals. Then when other creatives came along and made The Force Awakens people complained it was a shot for shot remake of A New Hope. It was literally the most blatant, obvious signal tuned for an audience that is not known for understanding subtleties, that they wanted to listen to fans and do things right and that they were returning to the roots just like the fans asked, and people shoved it in their faces lmao. alexandriao fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Jul 20, 2023 |
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Jul 20, 2023 02:19
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alexandriao posted:You're forgetting that this is an antidote to literally almost 10+ seasons of grimdark Trek. I agree so much. It's the Trekkian optimism I love in that SNW first episode.
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Jul 20, 2023 02:26
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Timby posted:This is a flat-out falsehood. The original series has the best first season of all Trek and it isn't even close. DS9's first season is more good than bad. Lower Decks was firing on all cylinders by the third episode. Prodigy was fire right out of the gate. I'm cooler on Strange New Worlds' first season than most, but it's still above-average. Picard got good for like an hour per season, but each individual hour is diffused across each season's ten episodes and is made up of parts that add up to mostly an hour by the time you're done.
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Jul 20, 2023 02:31
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Picard makes me so angry just the worst star trek anything possible
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Jul 20, 2023 03:03
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Yeah I’m struggling to think of 1 hour of good stuff in Picard S1. “Burnt tomato!” doesn’t take very long to say
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Jul 20, 2023 03:04
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I actually believe in a Star Trek future. Like I just am real optimistic about things going to poo poo but then us coming out better for it.
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Jul 20, 2023 03:09
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Hollismason posted:I actually believe in a Star Trek future. Like I just am real optimistic about things going to poo poo but then us coming out better for it. Let's agree with all the Vulcans demands!
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Jul 20, 2023 03:12
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FlamingLiberal posted:The pilot episode is the weakest one to me, and it's because of it being too preachy and not just laying things out with more subtlety.  That speech was really what sold me on SNW, which I think is what a good pilot should do (particularly Trek pilots, which tend to be the "mission statement" kind focused on establishing the major ideas and tone of the show). The nuance and ethical dilemmas can come later.
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Jul 20, 2023 03:13
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I'll also confess I am so in love with Pike's quarters I'm not sure I can be logical about it. I mean he's got a sweet rear end fireplace in there.
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Jul 20, 2023 03:15
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There is a real problem in the first episode where we know nothing about what the war is actually about, it's just "War Bad! Stop making war and be friends!  ".For all we know this is their USA, and they're trying to bomb the local fascist regime hell-bent on world domination and racial cleansing that's right on their gates and close to invading, if not conquering their freedom-loving nation.
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Jul 20, 2023 03:35
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It didn't made sense to me that a organization with basically infinite resources would build ships that did not have lots of living room in them. I appreciate the new Enterprise feeling like a actual futuristic vessel. The federation has basically infinite resources. They can build ships to be comfortable.
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Jul 20, 2023 03:36
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Hollismason posted:It didn't made sense to me that a organization with basically infinite resources would build ships that did not have lots of living room in them. I appreciate the new Enterprise feeling like a actual futuristic vessel. The Federation maintains wilderness in space. The doctor goes fishing in one of them.
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Jul 20, 2023 03:39
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Hollismason posted:The federation has basically infinite resources. They can build ships to be comfortable. And visible! The set lighting in SNW is in literal stark contrast to so much of what they did on Picard and Discovery and I love it. Everything from the corridors to Sickbay to Pike's cabin to the bridge is beautifully lit on this show
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