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So...is there any indication that the DC is going to get any comeuppance for being the utter worse, or do all signs point to them doing the Hollywood Hogan air guitar strut for the foreseeable future?
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Jul 19, 2023 19:39
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Yori has a chance to be a decent human being under the mantle but I wouldn't really hold my breath.
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Jul 19, 2023 19:42
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SirPhoebos posted:So...is there any indication that the DC is going to get any comeuppance for being the utter worse, or do all signs point to them doing the Hollywood Hogan air guitar strut for the foreseeable future? Playing for the conquest victory they went from this to this. Their comeuppance was the Clan invasion and they ended up in a better position afterward.
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Jul 19, 2023 19:46
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I meant more from a Doylestown perspective. Actual reform, or alternatively collapsing as a consequence of their actions, is a story beat I can get behind.
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Jul 19, 2023 19:47
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Defiance Industries posted:Playing for the conquest victory they went from this to this. Their comeuppance was the Clan invasion and they ended up in a better position afterward. Sure, that's the history so far. Is it reasonable to hope that Catalyst will go in a different direction? Apologies for the double post.
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Jul 19, 2023 19:50
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GD_American posted:They're a company favorite faction. They'll find a magical Castle Brian with eight Galaxies worth of Mechs when it matters. no SirPhoebos posted:I interpret that as Kurita being mega-weebs who have totally disassociate the holiday from its origins. They do it because anime has Christmas episodes. It's a big pain to have to play this game pretending that a major faction doesn't exist, but that's what I do with the DC. They have some really good 'Mechs though SirPhoebos posted:So...is there any indication that the DC is going to get any comeuppance for being the utter worse, or do all signs point to them doing the Hollywood Hogan air guitar strut for the foreseeable future? Way too many weeb players/lore fans who share Stackpole's view of Japan to change the faction that way. I know actual Catalyst Demo Team agents who are this way with the DC, no cap. The faction needed to be removed from the game 30 years ago but we are lightyears beyond that, so to speak. Sidesaddle Cavalry fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jul 19, 2023 |
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Jul 19, 2023 20:00
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camp. As it stands, my personal preference is that the Combine gets a critical vibe check, but I won't pretend to hinge my enjoyment of Battletech on it.
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In order for the DC to be better they'd probably need at least one of the following to happen: 1) A Coordinator who's actually a reformer and has enough populist backing that the ISF/DCMS/Yakuza/Black Dragon Society/Nobility/Otomo or etc. can't just have them killed and removed which is what happens to any Coordinator who steps too far out of their box [in case anyone's wondering, even being the Coordinator of the Draconis Combine is a poo poo job that is likely to get you prematurely killed]. This reformer Coordinator would need to reign for at least two if not three generations so their changes have time to sink in enough that their successor can't just walk them back (which is what Takashi Kurita did, except he was walking back the shittiest parts of his father's reign). This probably can't be Yori because of the Combine's gynophobia and because she hasn't done any of the back-end reforms like, say, legally restricting the work day for non-military citizens to something reasonable. 2) Merging with the Federated Suns in some capacity (either as conquerer or through a dynastic marriage) for long enough for things like reasonable work weeks to enter the thoughts of their citizens and/or for the Draconis Combine government to be in some way forced to make concessions to the general populace to maintain order. Which would absolutely suck for the Federated Suns. As much as I love the idea of the Draconis Suns and the necessity of a FS/DC merger mellowing out the DC, it's just not happening. I don't see a Yori/Julian wedding in the future (although one would be funny, as sort of a final poke in the eye to Victor Davion). 3) For the same sort of thing to happen (but on a smaller scale) with the newly reintegrated Republic of the Sphere worlds. I just don't see them being economically valuable enough for the DCMS to not simply crush them the first time they start complaining about their newfound total lack of freedom. 4) Have an honest-to-god interplanetary general strike / worker revolt that absolutely cripples them and breaks the back of their entire economy for long enough that their government actually collapses and some sort of reformer is around to pick up the pieces and remake them into something better. Because barring that the collapse of the Draconis Combine just leads to a bunch of Mad Max shogunates and a civil war so bloody it'll make both the FedCom de-marriage look well mediated and the semi-annual FWL succession crisis look like a friendly family reunion. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Jul 19, 2023 |
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Jul 19, 2023 20:05
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FASA should have just let the Clans crush them tbh
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Jul 19, 2023 20:09
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SirPhoebos posted:Sure, that's the history so far. Is it reasonable to hope that Catalyst will go in a different direction? Catalyst are the people who let them conquer New Avalon. Sidesaddle Cavalry posted:FASA should have just let the Clans crush them tbh It would have been more interesting, at least, if the Jaguars never existed. Life under Bear rule is, at worst, a lateral move from being a Combine serf. But the Jaguars are actually so bad that life under the Kuritas was preferable. Can't have our heroes wrestle with the implications of preserving an evil regime because it's geopolitically expedient. Defiance Industries fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Jul 19, 2023 |
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Jul 19, 2023 20:10
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Defiance Industries posted:Catalyst are the people who let them conquer New Avalon. I see. Thanks. I'll keep that in mind when recommending this setting.
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Jul 19, 2023 20:21
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SirPhoebos posted:I see. Thanks. Look I'm the first person to call out Battletech's orientalism and plentiful fictional missteps, but absolutely nothing about a fictional setting's quality should be judged by "do people get what they deserve." Something bad can happen in a story without the writer(s) saying "yes, this is good." The Clans are by any modern standard a nightmarish military state but they're colorful and interesting characters in the Battletech setting. The Combine's samurai genocide massacre stuff would be worthy of the deepest revulsion in real life, but it gives us great stories like Wolves on the Border. Things that happen in Battletech aren't real, and they aren't prescriptions for how people should live or judge history irl.
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Jul 19, 2023 20:46
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Honestly I'd rather them cop to "the Combine is just absolutely loving awful, an engine to create misery" than go back to Stackpole dancing around all the oppression because Victor thinks the imperial garden is neat. At least the writers now aren't doing that poo poo.
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Jul 19, 2023 20:51
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PoptartsNinja posted:4) Have an honest-to-god interplanetary general strike / worker revolt that absolutely cripples them and breaks the back of their entire economy for long enough that their government actually collapses and some sort of reformer is around to pick up the pieces and remake them into something better. Because barring that the collapse of the Draconis Combine just leads to a bunch of Mad Max shogunates and a civil war so bloody it'll make both the FedCom de-marriage look well mediated and the semi-annual FWL succession crisis look like a friendly family reunion.
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Jul 19, 2023 21:11
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SirPhoebos posted:I see. Thanks. The reason they likely haven't gotten their comeuppance is because they're a fun villain to write for. The most interesting (and often weirdly moral) Kuritan characters like Chandrasekhar Kurita, Subhash Indrahar, and etc. are often just shy of being in-universe supervillains. It also gives them a cyberpunk dystopia faction they can trot out when the conflicts start going smaller scale; and if there is any faction that is ripe for a revolt or a civil war it's the Draconis Combine.
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Jul 19, 2023 21:15
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The FS would also need to be crippled during the general strike, otherwise the Feddies invade and go "congratulations, you're free! (ps we aren't funding your schools)"
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Jul 19, 2023 21:17
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I dunno, the FedSuns has sort-of a "how it started/how it's going" thing going on at the moment:  I could absolutely see Julian saying "gently caress it, let's see how this plays out" and just readying forces in case a warhawk won the theoretical Kurita civil war.
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Jul 19, 2023 22:01
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I'll admit to being a DC fan, but whether they're interesting or not is very dependent on who's writing them. The best writers (i.e. Milan or Charette) emphasize how the whole system of the Combine is hosed up and how a complex web of loyalties, obligations, and social expectations keep the aristocracy within limited bounds of behavior. The fragility of the system is its strength; everyone is struggling to both maintain their position within the hierarchy and to keep the whole thing afloat. The bad authors go all in on weeb poo poo and how cool it is to be a samurai/ninja and how sweet and honorable killing a dude with your sword is.
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Jul 19, 2023 22:24
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PoptartsNinja posted:I dunno, the FedSuns has sort-of a "how it started/how it's going" thing going on at the moment: Julian shed about 25 pounds between the picture on the left and the one on the right except when he's wearing his prosthetics
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Jul 19, 2023 22:48
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PoptartsNinja posted:In order for the DC to be better they'd probably need at least one of the following to happen: I'd be down for Yori being the one who gets it done, especially if it's a result of the complete and utter collapse of the DCMS in the face of multiple external threats that cripples its ability to resist those changes. She's definitely got the populist backing or at least the start of it, and she's doing a pretty good job of getting powerful men in the DCMS very dead in a way that looks entirely their own fault.
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Jul 20, 2023 00:09
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Sidesaddle Cavalry posted:Way too many weeb players/lore fans who share Stackpole's view of Japan to change the faction that way. I know actual Catalyst Demo Team agents who are this way with the DC, no cap. The faction needed to be removed from the game 30 years ago but we are lightyears beyond that, so to speak. As I've noted previously the problem with the DC is that they aren't really a "feudal samurai" society, they're WWII Japan, and the fascism just Does Not Age Well these days. As interesting "bad guy" factions go, I think Capella has them beat under the current setting really, you've got a lot of interesting factional maneuvering going on between Daoshen and his family, and their hardon for killing the Republic is at least complicated by the fact IIRC the Republic was playing relocation games with their former people (and honestly it's a little screwy the CC were the only IS nation who were willing to be unhappy with Stone taking worlds from their nation, war-weary or not). FishFood posted:I'll admit to being a DC fan, but whether they're interesting or not is very dependent on who's writing them. The best writers (i.e. Milan or Charette) emphasize how the whole system of the Combine is hosed up and how a complex web of loyalties, obligations, and social expectations keep the aristocracy within limited bounds of behavior. The fragility of the system is its strength; everyone is struggling to both maintain their position within the hierarchy and to keep the whole thing afloat. For me that fragility is starting to get silly to watch endure through SO much of the setting history, particularly since real history has shown fascists are not in fact very good at running nations. And they sure as hell shouldn't be all uber-elite soldiers if they have a culture of military leadership ordering banzai charges and killing themselves upon errors (and if Theodore couldn't fix any of the other DC cultural issues long-term, I'm dubious he should have done well with this aspect lingering), not to mention doing literally everything wrong when it comes to counter-insurgency by twirling their mustaches and abusing everybody. Doesn't really fit the supposed setting logic of "everybody on a conquered planet just changes the flags and who they pay taxes to" when the DC seem to be constantly portrayed as going "Mwahahahaha let's kill babies!" when they take a place. Though I grant it did make for good stories with the Grey Death Legion at least (and I certainly hope they get something interesting with the New Avalon Catholic Battle Pope). Strobe posted:I'd be down for Yori being the one who gets it done, especially if it's a result of the complete and utter collapse of the DCMS in the face of multiple external threats that cripples its ability to resist those changes. She's definitely got the populist backing or at least the start of it, and she's doing a pretty good job of getting powerful men in the DCMS very dead in a way that looks entirely their own fault. Be nice, but I don't see much light between her and Toranaga politically besides "who's in charge". Once she's secure in power, wouldn't she just do the same expansionism and such? Though I'm certainly hoping for some kind of shakeup from a potential ilClan/Combine conflict (if nothing else at least one of them would get a nice humbling).
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Jul 20, 2023 00:21
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Yori's about to get invaded by the Bears after their Khan realized what they needed to get everyone to stop fighting each other is a foreign enemy to fight, and their majority Rasalhagian citizens love the juxtaposition of their boot being on a Japanese neck so they're on board.
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Jul 20, 2023 01:00
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Defiance Industries posted:The FS would also need to be crippled during the general strike, otherwise the Feddies invade and go "congratulations, you're free! (ps we aren't funding your schools)" I would so write a trilogy about the entire Outback telling the FS to gently caress off
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Jul 20, 2023 03:01
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Filtvelt and Malagrotta are basically that, and I kind of love how fractured that area of space has become in recent years. I would love to know what happened to the Aurigan Coalition post-3028 too, especially since the maps show the Capellan Confederation and the Fronc Reachs absorbing their worlds. Itrom in particular is gonna be a hit, what with the Gwendor-Dorwinion Cartel controlling basically every jumpship in the state.MadDogMike posted:As I've noted previously the problem with the DC is that they aren't really a "feudal samurai" society, they're WWII Japan, and the fascism just Does Not Age Well these days. As interesting "bad guy" factions go, I think Capella has them beat under the current setting really, you've got a lot of interesting factional maneuvering going on between Daoshen and his family, and their hardon for killing the Republic is at least complicated by the fact IIRC the Republic was playing relocation games with their former people (and honestly it's a little screwy the CC were the only IS nation who were willing to be unhappy with Stone taking worlds from their nation, war-weary or not).
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Jul 20, 2023 03:22
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PoptartsNinja posted:The reason they likely haven't gotten their comeuppance is because they're a fun villain to write for. The most interesting (and often weirdly moral) Kuritan characters like Chandrasekhar Kurita, Subhash Indrahar, and etc. are often just shy of being in-universe supervillains. It also gives them a cyberpunk dystopia faction they can trot out when the conflicts start going smaller scale; and if there is any faction that is ripe for a revolt or a civil war it's the Draconis Combine. My feeling is when you start engaging in anti-semitism as a plot beat to get heat, you stop being a 'fun villain'.
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Jul 20, 2023 03:34
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I don't disagree.
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Jul 20, 2023 03:53
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PoptartsNinja posted:The reason they likely haven't gotten their comeuppance is because they're a fun villain to write for. The most interesting (and often weirdly moral) Kuritan characters like Chandrasekhar Kurita, Subhash Indrahar, and etc. are often just shy of being in-universe supervillains. It also gives them a cyberpunk dystopia faction they can trot out when the conflicts start going smaller scale; and if there is any faction that is ripe for a revolt or a civil war it's the Draconis Combine. Uncle Chandy is fun because he acknowledges how absurd the Combine and Clan societies are and has figured out how to work both sides for his own (and to a lesser extent, the DC's) gain. Flooding Clan space with consumer goods to subvert their society while also making a tidy profit and arming his personal mercenary force makes me smile.
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Jul 20, 2023 04:27
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Marx Headroom posted:Stackpole definitely loves space Japan judging by this entire chapter in the Warrior trilogy about a dumb rear end tea ceremony. This happens in assumption of risk, with a zero gravity tea ceremony doesn't it?
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Jul 21, 2023 01:17
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There are so many loving tea ceremony chapters in his loving books
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Jul 21, 2023 01:31
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I found a new paint scheme I really like, so have a newly painted Blackjack. Scheme is 1st Liao Guards, a Dark Age Capellan unit.
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Jul 21, 2023 07:05
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Good robot
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Jul 21, 2023 09:02
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That's some crisp highlighting on the panels.
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Jul 21, 2023 09:18
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Yes, fine attention to detail. Also that's a nice gun barrel color. Maybe someday I'll branch out from using VMC on everything metal.
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Jul 21, 2023 13:14
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Defiance Industries posted:There are so many loving tea ceremony chapters in his loving books Excuse you: Sci Fi enhanced Tea Parties, the true Kuritan Way  So is House Kurita actually ancestrally Japanese or is it just a massive noble house of Weebs from like, New Jersey or something? TulliusCicero fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Jul 21, 2023 |
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Jul 21, 2023 19:30
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They got the Kurita name from a WW2 Japanese Navy admiral, and they're also turbo-weebs with Scottish and German lines or something.
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Jul 21, 2023 20:07
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Ancestrally they're descended from one of the admirals from World War II. I do like the line in the original house book. I had to find my Housebook PDF but it had the Kurita who was founding what would become the core of the Combine. basically saying the quiet part loud. AUDIENCE FROM SVERDLOVSK SHIRO KURITA [mock-genial]: I am pleased to be among you again, citizens of Sverdlovsk. 1ST VOICE: Why don’t you go back where you came from? KURITA [disdainfully]: Identity yourself, peasant. 2ND VOICE: We meant you no harm ... why did you attack our world? KURITA: I offered your leaders a chance to join with me. They refused- 3RD VOICE [interrupting]: They didn’t refuse. You gave them no choice. KURITA [screaming]: Any government that does not side with me is against me! Any man who does not help me, hurts me! Anything that does not provide aid is in my way and must be destroyed! How many of you imbeciles must I kill before you begin to understand this? —Excerpt of live dialog between Sverdlovsk citizens and Director Shiro Kurita, transmitted via satellite from Chyornyy, Sverdlovsk, 23 December 2303 SirFozzie fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Jul 21, 2023 |
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Jul 21, 2023 20:07
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TulliusCicero posted:So is House Kurita actually ancestrally Japanese or is it just a massive noble house of Weebs from like, New Jersey or something? PoptartsNinja posted:I mean, the Von Rohrs can't be overlooked considering they killed nearly all of House Kurita.
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Jul 21, 2023 20:08
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The Kuritas were turbo weebs going back to Shiro, but it was Urizen who came up with the idea of forcing everyone in the Combine to LARP with him at gunpoint.
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Jul 21, 2023 21:16
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There's also Victor Liao who had red hair, wore a beret and tartan, and once beheaded a Terran diplomat with a katana flash step
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Jul 22, 2023 01:59
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I've been a long time DC fan mainly because the only black characters I knew in battletech were DC. That and the factions outside of tabletop that always saw the most airtime were also the most boring to me, so I always rooted for Liao and the Combine over Davion. Shakir Jerrar was my favorite, I really liked the rendering style they used for the pilot portraits in Sword and Dragon. Least uncomfortable looking cooling vests to me. Sharkopath fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Jul 22, 2023 |
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Jul 22, 2023 03:07
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Defiance Industries posted:There are so many loving tea ceremony chapters in his loving books If you don't like elaborate depictions of dudes drinking tea, why are you even reading sci-fi space robot books?!?! Finalized my mercs KS options today. Realized I have barely time to paint anything these days so I didn't add any add-ons. Still super stoked to see what comes in the salvage boxes! Got one plain mercs mech, one clan invasion and one legendaries. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Jul 22, 2023 |
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Jul 22, 2023 21:26
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