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Devastation of baal has some nids
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Jul 21, 2023 07:55
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Plucky Brit posted:Mortarion was beaten when he realised that literally everyone (including his own legion) thought he was weak and sold his soul to Nurgle because he couldn't endure the pain. Can't remember which book it is, but when the returned Guilliman comes face to face with Daemon Primarch Mortarion, he tells him he doesn't consider it to be a real Mortarion, but just a daemonic pretender puppetting a corpse, because his brother, the real Mortarion wasn't bitchmade. That always was really funny to me.
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Jul 21, 2023 10:36
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chainchompz posted:I just finished the Leviathan omnibus. I could read more stories about Tyranids doing their thing or one of the not-franchise pulp books on my shelf. Pretend I just discovered 40k, what else is there with 'nids? You might like The Last Hunt, White Scars book with tyranids and eldar. Sharkopath fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Jul 21, 2023 |
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Jul 21, 2023 13:53
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Mazed posted:I'm starting to warm to Tyranids. More than Chaos and Necrons, they embody that specifically Lovecraft brand of cosmic horror of highly elaborate monsters that are absolutely inhuman and regard our whole species as, at most, a nice dinner worth going out of their way for, and this is the only motivation of theirs that we're capable of perceiving, leaving anything else that drives them a complete unknown that's impossible to resolve. Tyranids as the true cosmic horror of the setting is something they've been leaning into a lot more with the latest Fourth Tyrannic War stuff, especially the giant planet sized Tyranid bioform that seems to be explicitly pulling from the Brethren Moons from Dead Space
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Jul 21, 2023 15:15
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Mazed posted:I'm starting to warm to Tyranids. More than Chaos and Necrons, they embody that specifically Lovecraft brand of cosmic horror of highly elaborate monsters that are absolutely inhuman and regard our whole species as, at most, a nice dinner worth going out of their way for, and this is the only motivation of theirs that we're capable of perceiving, leaving anything else that drives them a complete unknown that's impossible to resolve. One of the stories in Lovecraft Unbound, 20 stories inspired by Lovecraft lore, has a guy stumble into a cult that is similar to a genestealer cult by sheer luck/misfortune think he's also one of the chosen by their gods and reveal to him that in fact their gods are ravenous monsters on their way to Earth that they will join with by getting eaten up. Along with everyone and everything else. Also a story about the Leng plateau that is in a different vein but still really good.
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Jul 21, 2023 18:12
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CapnAndy posted:Malcador is sympathetic and a good guy. The Emperor personally caused every bad thing that happened to the Imperium by being a hubristic moron and deserves way, way worse than he got. The multiple aspects of the Emperor that Sanguinius sees I've always seen as pretty accurate. The Emperor, whether he's a super psyker Perpetual or a remnant weapon from the Dark Age of Technology, has overlapping aspects and motivations that all generally align in 30k. He views the Primarchs as tools, his sons, scientific creations, etc. all at the same time and I think it's something that Abnett does actually capture. Just saying the Emperor was a manipulative sociopath whose greatest trick was fooling Malcador into thinking he had human emotions and feelings, to me, undersells the hubris there. It turns the Heresy story from being a rich Greek tragedy into being a real simplistic one that borders on a morality play where the big dumb idiot gets rightly shat on by the universe. What makes tragedy of this type work is that the hero is sympathetic. They're arrogant and put themselves against the gods/nature/fate but for good reason whether saving a city from a plague or stealing fire from the gods for mankind. If the Emperor doesn't have a human core and connections, if he doesn't have feelings for his people, then the Heresy is just humanity seeing two inhuman forces of nature launching a war to control them. It's bleak in a way that takes away from the setting because it also means the Imperium in 40k isn't some horrible outcome Horus' betrayal doomed humanity to, it's pretty much what we always had with more feudalism.
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Jul 21, 2023 18:36
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I liked that part in Master of Mankind where the Emperor shows some of his childhood to a custodes
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Jul 21, 2023 19:35
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Or did he?
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Jul 21, 2023 19:40
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I know the newest Cain book was announced a couple months ago. Anyone know when it's supposed to release?
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Jul 21, 2023 19:50
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MrNemo posted:The multiple aspects of the Emperor that Sanguinius sees I've always seen as pretty accurate. The Emperor, whether he's a super psyker Perpetual or a remnant weapon from the Dark Age of Technology, has overlapping aspects and motivations that all generally align in 30k. He views the Primarchs as tools, his sons, scientific creations, etc. all at the same time and I think it's something that Abnett does actually capture. Just saying the Emperor was a manipulative sociopath whose greatest trick was fooling Malcador into thinking he had human emotions and feelings, to me, undersells the hubris there. It turns the Heresy story from being a rich Greek tragedy into being a real simplistic one that borders on a morality play where the big dumb idiot gets rightly shat on by the universe. First off, none of this would have happened if he hadn't been the ultimate Internet Atheist, except living in a world where the supernatural is verifiably real and he loving knows it. Horus' fall is so bleakly hilarious just because the Sons of Horus land on a world where everything is rotting and covered in zombies and spend all their time bumblefucking around going "well obviously none of this is really happening, our flawless Imperial Truth proves it". The place might as well have had giant neon signs reading NURGLE IS HERE flashing in orbit; a 40k chapter would've taken one look, gone "lol nope", and cracked the planet without ever setting foot on it. If he wasn't such an unbelievable bigot, maybe the Space Marines would've loving listened to the Interex or civilizations like them who were like "hey, morons, technological progress is possible, multiculturalism works, and oh yeah YOU HAVE A GIANT loving BLIND SPOT WHERE ACTUAL LITERAL TRICKSTER DEMONS CAN COME TO TAKE YOUR VERY REAL SOULS, would you like to sit down with us for a little bit and get brought up to speed". If he wasn't a strange, sad misogynist, maybe there'd be female Space Marines. Who knows if that'd help. Couldn't have hurt. If he told... anyone, anything, ever, Heresy probably doesn't happen. First off, if the 30k Imperium has even the very basic knowledge of Chaos that the 40k ones do, they're ready for a lot of bullshit that can get nipped in the bud. If the Primarchs and Space Marines are told what the plans for them are after the Great Crusade, they're a lot less on edge and willing to believe the worst case scenario, especially given that the Emperor has a track record of purging his super-soldiers when he's done with them. If the Emperor bothers to tell anyone why he's dipping out of the Crusade early, what he's going to do instead, and why he thinks it's more important, there's a lot less resentment in the rank and file and Horus in particular doesn't feel so abandoned. If the reasons for why psykers are being restricted are known, Magnus probably doesn't kick off so hard. He definitely doesn't breach the loving Webway Project if he knows it exists and that the seals around the Imperial Palace exist to keep it safe and must be sacrosanct. If he knows what he's being groomed for, he's probably got a ton more job satisfaction and he can get actually, y'know, trained for the goddamn job, so he's at the Emperor's side instead of sulking on Prospero.
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Jul 21, 2023 21:04
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Improbable Lobster posted:I liked that part in Master of Mankind where the Emperor shows some of his childhood to a custodes The one vision he shows that custode, where the emperor is a young boy, ritualistically decorating his father's skull, tells Ra that his uncle had murdered him. So he goes to his uncle and melts his brain. Ra asks what this all means, the Emperor states, "Humanity must be ruled." CapnAndy posted:I don't disagree with any of that, but I disagree with the conclusion. The Emperor being human is part of the problem -- he's a smug little fuckup who spent his entire life leaning on the crutches of being born an immortal psychic supergenius avatar of unlimited might, and when you take those away, he's useless and too much of a failson to even be aware he can be wrong. Every facet of the Heresy is his fault because of his myriad personality flaws, intellectual blind spots, and sheer emotional idiocy. I mean, like, that's just your opinion man. I agree.
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Jul 21, 2023 21:14
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Don't get me wrong, it's not that Emperor doesn't play a pivotal part in what becomes 40k. His whole project is arrogant and his tendency to treat people as just part of the herd of 'Humanity' that he's saving and the Primarchs as chess pieces plays right into it. People just have a tendency to react against the portrayal of the Emperor as a human who does actually care as just an act, while the Emperor as cold manipulator or even as a god like being as glimpses of his 'true' self. Basically people get big E is an arrogant manipulator who is following his own plan for humanity to the exclusion of all else but I think it's fair that the other views we get of him are as much a real view of the Emperor. I don't think his whole plan in this was to wind up becoming a new Warp god powered by human belief, I think he's presented as having human relations with others and sometimes even caring because he does. The big background plan we've seen through various views is actually what he's trying to accomplish otherwise the Heresy stops being meaningful as a Tragic set up for the whole setting. Hell plenty of parts of his plan make sense from a big picture perspective - magic is real and it wants to destroy reality. But if we don't believe in fairies, they die. So we stop everyone believing in loving fairies and wipe them out ASAP. The Interex was a big lost opportunity but it's also worth bearing in mind that particular catastrophic failure was partly orchestrated by people who saw the danger of the Primarchs and others learning about Chaos from fellow humans.
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Jul 21, 2023 21:21
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Couple of additional things to consider about the Emperor: All of the other Perpetuals except Malcador and Alivia bailed on his rear end eventually, because they came to disagree with him, and it was really hard to disagree with him when in his presence. Emperor juicing himself up to near-god levels of power came at the cost of greatly diminishing his humanity, robbing him of much of his emotions and ability to even remotely relate to humans (Valdor: Birth of the Imperium). The Emperor is running a con on the Chaos Gods, or at least tried to do so, but it might have gone completely tits up (prologue of Valdor, Vengeful Spirit, The End and the Death Vol 1) The Emperor when explaining prescience to his Custodes hints that his attempts to avoid what he had foreseen might have actually caused the things he had foreseen to happen, in a different way (Master of Mankind). The Primarchs were meant to be raised from birth in Terra completely indoctrinated, with no capacity to rebel, and Valdor thought that they should not have been reclaimed from the worlds they grew up, but killed instead, because he thought that risk of them being corrupted or becoming rebellious outweighed the benefits of having them (various novels, like Valdor, Wolfsbane, and the short story Magisterium) I think one could make the argument that the Emperor's various atrocities could maybekindasorta be justified if they had succeeded in saving the human race from certain, inevitable annihilation, but because his plans failed, largely because of his flaws and gently caress-ups, it was all for nothing.
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Jul 21, 2023 21:39
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MrNemo posted:People just have a tendency to react against the portrayal of the Emperor as a human who does actually care as just an act, while the Emperor as cold manipulator or even as a god like being as glimpses of his 'true' self. Basically people get big E is an arrogant manipulator who is following his own plan for humanity to the exclusion of all else but I think it's fair that the other views we get of him are as much a real view of the Emperor. quote:Hell plenty of parts of his plan make sense from a big picture perspective - magic is real and it wants to destroy reality. But if we don't believe in fairies, they die. So we stop everyone believing in loving fairies and wipe them out ASAP. And y'know what does work? Vigilance against their designs, and faith in something that's not them. That starves them. Basically, the Emperor found a brushfire, correctly identified that unchecked fires are bad, and set out to extinguish the fire. Good plan, no complaints. The problem is that he believed that nothing puts out a fire like throwing gasoline on it and wouldn't listen to anyone telling him differently, which is also the point where his good intentions don't matter a goddamn whit, because he burned half the loving galaxy down.
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Jul 21, 2023 21:45
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Alright I was going to post but then I accidently erased it all, but now someone else agrees so I gotta say my piece. Knowledge of Chaos is not safe, and limiting to as few people as possible is a good strategy. The gods get a lot of their strength from powerful emotions, but they also get it from worship, and if you think letting all the primarchs know, as well as elements of the army, and it would just go gravy, you're as delusional as Mortarian, who finds out about chaos, sees it corrupting his siblings, and goes, "ah, those losers don't have any control, I can study it to make it work for me" and we know how that ends. I mean, how do think telling Lorgar about Chaos would go? "I'm no god, don't worship me, but also those horribly powerful daemons that have the power to influence reality are really bad, you gotta avoid them!" How do you think the Interex would have fared against a tyranid hivefleet? Or a waagh the size of the one that's hit armageddon? The Imperium is a huge, creaking edifice that is constantly at risk of failure, but it still protects the vast majority of humanity from voracious aliens and chaos, as well as establishing a galaxy wide civilisation. Remember that there was one before, but then psykers happened and they didn't have all the black ships bs established so entire worlds were drawn into chaos. I don't even know if the Imperium is too xenophobic, who are their options to ally with? Orks are right out, Tyranids too. Necrons? They still want to go back to ruling the whole galaxy, they might regard as a pets but they wouldn't let us survive once they didn't need us. Eldar, who'd sacrifice whole planets to save a few of their lives? They seem to get along fine with Jokearo, who actually are harmless aliens that just make stuff. T'au got some good tech, sure, but it sure seems like the etherals are calling their shots and who knows how well it'd go if they had to play second fiddle to the high lords. Even telling everyone about the great webway project has problems. For one thing, the navigators aren't going to like it, and they have a great deal of material power in the imperium. Even telling Magnus has its risks, because maybe he doesn't want to be a battery for the rest of his life? Guy got specifically told to stay away from chaos stuff, and then he hears something, and goes, "oh dad's gotta know about this, I'll just use magic to tell him" despite being specifically told not to. I'm not saying he made all the right choices, i'm just saying it's easy to go "well, just don't do that and everything will be fine", when really there could be a hundred different things happening. There's a good part of Master of Mankind, where his custode goes "how come you couldn't see this coming?" and the emperor just explains that just because he can see the goal, it's like climbing a cliff where the footing isn't sure, you can't guarantee any one route is safe until you try it.
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Jul 21, 2023 21:46
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Ardent Communist posted:Alright I was going to post but then I accidently erased it all, but now someone else agrees so I gotta say my piece. Anyway, my answer is that while knowledge is certainly dangerous, ignorance was fatal. The fact that some people might say "yes" is better than nobody knowing that they're even being asked a question, let alone that "no" is a possible answer! And, yeah, people do still kick off and willingly go Chaos in 40k. But a lot less of them, and 30k was a much nicer place to live with a lot fewer reasons to jump ship and no external forces openly pressuring you into doing so. Also, ideally, you have a society where atheism hasn't been enforced at gunpoint. Which they would have had, if the Emperor wasn't a foaming-at-the-mouth atheist dressing up his own personal biases in self-justifying bullshit. We know that faith actively repels and harms Chaos, but even if he didn't -- what does it loving hurt if people keep their religions after you take over? Who cares if some of them want to worship you? Tell them "hey, I don't want to be worshipped", and if they keep doing it anyway, neat. They get a fun little theological puzzle and you get another group of people kept away from Chaos. For everyone who's inclined to be an atheist of their own free will, you've already got an Imperium that's so self-aggrandizing that it wouldn't take much to get people to worship the concept of the Imperium itself. That might work.And, yes, you will probably still need an Inquisition of some form of another, sure. The setting is awful by design and demands awfulness from its inhabitants. On that topic, it's interesting that you brought up Lorgar, because Lorgar was an absolute slam dunk to be proof against Chaos. Lorgar should've been the Emperor's greatest shield. It genuinely seems like he was literally (and we're talking about a Primarch, so that really does mean literally) designed for it. Lorgar is a simple dude. He wants the truth, and he's deeply religious. All you had to do was tell him "Hey, Lorgar. Demons." That's it! Now he knows the truth, and he's been prepping his entire life to resist the temptations of false religions. It's what he's best at! It makes him happy! I think in the ideal case, you could've had the Word Bearers as the kinder-and-gentler Inquisition analogue. We already know that what they genuinely want to do is to go to planets, instruct them in faith, and make their lives better. It would've given a purpose to a legion that always felt purposeless, given them meaning rather than scorn. Population's getting squirrelly? Send in the Word Bearers, they'll root out the Chaos poo poo and leave the planet better than they found it so it doesn't happen again. They could be the chaplains, in the old definition, to the rest of the Space Marines, and Lorgar could be that for his fellow Primarchs. Someone to come and talk to, confide worries in... and someone to keep watch on his brothers for signs that they might be corrupted, or even being led down a bad path. In a society prepared to actually make use of them, the Word Bearers could've been the heart and soul of the legions. quote:How do you think the Interex would have fared against a tyranid hivefleet? Or a waagh the size of the one that's hit armageddon? quote:I don't even know if the Imperium is too xenophobic, who are their options to ally with? Orks are right out, Tyranids too. Necrons? They still want to go back to ruling the whole galaxy, they might regard as a pets but they wouldn't let us survive once they didn't need us. Eldar, who'd sacrifice whole planets to save a few of their lives? They seem to get along fine with Jokearo, who actually are harmless aliens that just make stuff. T'au got some good tech, sure, but it sure seems like the etherals are calling their shots and who knows how well it'd go if they had to play second fiddle to the high lords. quote:Even telling everyone about the great webway project has problems. For one thing, the navigators aren't going to like it, and they have a great deal of material power in the imperium. Even telling Magnus has its risks, because maybe he doesn't want to be a battery for the rest of his life? Guy got specifically told to stay away from chaos stuff, and then he hears something, and goes, "oh dad's gotta know about this, I'll just use magic to tell him" despite being specifically told not to. As for Magnus, first off, if he doesn't want to be a battery for the rest of his life, then that's the Emperor loving up again, just from a different angle, because sitting on the Golden Throne is literally what he was built to do. And, for the record, it's a fuckup I don't think the Emperor made, because "sit alone for all eternity connected to everything and exploring the mysteries of the empyrean" absolutely sounds like Magnus' idea of a good time. And as for the "specifically told" stuff... yeah, he got told, but he got no reasons. All he was really told was Because I Said So, which meant that he couldn't evaluate the Emperor's decision making and see if there was a good reason or the Emperor was just being a dogmatic jackass for no good reason other than that it skeeves him out (something he's got a bit of a history of being). Which means that when he gets indisputably crucial new information, he's weighing "everybody dies if I don't get this message through" against "Emperor will be mad at me", rather than "everybody dies if I don't get this message through" against "everybody dies if I send this message psychically". Which is a much different decision.
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Jul 21, 2023 23:57
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I mean, we can all second guess the Emperor, and all his decisions. As far as I can see, Chaos is the biggest stumbling block for the human race, all the other aliens would be a more manageable project if they weren't divided. Most of the alien races that aren't factions in the game I've read about were pretty evil, out to dominate or destroy humanity, but maybe i just haven't read a couple books with the friendly aliens. But like the Slaugth in the Alpharius book, that's a straight up evil force, or the worms that travel under the earth and shoot electricity. But anyways, as far as the fighting chaos goes, the Emperor is referred to them as the Anathema, and remember, we're talking about consciousnesses that time is merely a suggestion. he may have made tons of gently caress ups, but they still see him as the ultimate opponent.
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Jul 22, 2023 00:36
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to be clear the Votann are another human empire that, while not completely friendly with Xenos, is perfectly willing and able to work with Imperial, Eldar and Tau forces when they see a benefit in it
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Jul 22, 2023 00:38
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A big part of the Emperor's hubris, IMHO, is his insistence that absolutely all of humanity has to be under his rule specifically as well as his complete intolerance of even healthy xeno-human relations. It's interesting to think about how the setting might be different if the Big E hadn't chased after the primarchs or if the great crusade wasn't what it was.
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Jul 22, 2023 00:46
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He shouldn’t have liked the primarchs. They are insane monsters who nearly destroyed the galaxy. Oh well
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Jul 22, 2023 01:59
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MrNemo posted:The multiple aspects of the Emperor that Sanguinius sees I've always seen as pretty accurate. The Emperor, whether he's a super psyker Perpetual or a remnant weapon from the Dark Age of Technology, has overlapping aspects and motivations that all generally align in 30k. He views the Primarchs as tools, his sons, scientific creations, etc. all at the same time and I think it's something that Abnett does actually capture. Just saying the Emperor was a manipulative sociopath whose greatest trick was fooling Malcador into thinking he had human emotions and feelings, to me, undersells the hubris there. It turns the Heresy story from being a rich Greek tragedy into being a real simplistic one that borders on a morality play where the big dumb idiot gets rightly shat on by the universe. I dont mean that he tricks malcador in the sociopath sense, I more mean "no one knows the real emperor and honestly i doubt the emperor sometimes" does, i think malcador knows way way more of the emperor then anyone else, just not all the secrets.
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Jul 22, 2023 02:00
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EATD actually makes a lot of the things the Emperor did, which had long been derided as stupid, make a lot more sense. Humanity is not just another species adrift in a galaxy beset by Chaos. Humanity is very specifically being targeted by the Chaos Gods and faces the unique and specific risk of creating the Dark King and suffering the fate of the Eldar. It is not enough to just warn people about Chaos, because Chaos is specifically offering the carrot of literal godhood to whichever human serves it best, and if humanity becomes aware of Chaos they will learn this and bring it about. The Emperor’s creation of the primarchs and Great Crusade isn’t just about conquest, it’s about setting an elaborate trap for the Chaos Gods in order to prevent the rise of the Dark King, freeing humanity from an otherwise inevitable fate. The Emperor must act in haste because time is short and the clock is ticking on the extinction of the species. The plan goes wrong, but it was always a desperate plan, enacted to stave off a worse outcome.
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Jul 22, 2023 02:14
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I don't really like that interpretation and really hope they don't lean into it: part of the whole point of 40k for me is how unnecessary the Imperium is. It's a monstrous regime put in place by a deluded megalomaniac and when the setting embraces the Emperor's perspective of "It would have been perfect if everyone else just followed my perfect plans," it just endorses that kind of authoritarianism and I hate it. I'll be honest that Primarchs and demigods mostly bore me to tears, so I have stayed away from HH, but I really hope they don't go with anything close to "The Emperor was right all along". 40k is better when the Emperor is doomed by his own hubris and authoritarian tendencies: he needs to have always been wrong.
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Jul 22, 2023 02:28
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The politics of the empire have evolved as we’ve gotten farther from 1980s Britain and good writers (abnett etc) have fleshed out more of the every day life of people in 40k It’s a whole minefield though. I don’t think the writers take the political overtones and analogies very seriously so I don’t either.
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Jul 22, 2023 02:34
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What's wrong with the emperor was right he just executed his plan poorly?
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Jul 22, 2023 03:15
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The Emperor being right all along is the both the most correct and also most funny option.
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Jul 22, 2023 03:15
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euphronius posted:The politics of the empire have evolved as we’ve gotten farther from 1980s Britain and good writers (abnett etc) have fleshed out more of the every day life of people in 40k It's funny to read the ad copy for say the assassin miniatures, where they portray them entirely as devoted and sacrificial heroes who take the hard jobs to save billions by killing the people who must needs killing, without entertaining the thought that they might sometimes be used how assassins are usually used, i.e. getting rid of the inconvenient.
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Jul 22, 2023 03:20
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Nah, I don't like stories where the most powerful person is 100% right and the only things preventing them from succeeding are the flaws of others. It feels juvenile to me, not to mention it justifies some pretty ugly beliefs. It might work for "Pinky and the Brain", where the foibles of the much-put-upon genius are fodder for jokes, but as soon as you move it to epic space opera it starts to get icky. It's part of the same reason I hate Stackpole's Battletech books: when you center the narrative entirely around a single character who can't fail and can only be failed, it starts to read like a selfish teenager's myopic view of the world. I also just feel uncomfortable with a setting where a genocidal invasion called "The Great Crusade" is anything but a monstrosity.
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Jul 22, 2023 03:30
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CapnAndy posted:Who cares if some of them want to worship you? Tell them "hey, I don't want to be worshipped", and if they keep doing it anyway, neat. They get a fun little theological puzzle and you get another group of people kept away from Chaos. If the Imperial subjects start to worship the emperor that will birth a warp entity representation of that worshipped emperor. This warp entity is likely going to grow out of or fuse with the real warp beacon that is the emperor, and influence his decisions. So for a guy that is a control freak with a set long term plan that sounds like a bad time. Especially so if the long term plan is to prevent the formation of said warp entity, or at least the formation of that warp entity outside of his control.
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Jul 22, 2023 08:23
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Warden posted:The Primarchs were meant to be raised from birth in Terra completely indoctrinated, with no capacity to rebel, and Valdor thought that they should not have been reclaimed from the worlds they grew up, but killed instead, because he thought that risk of them being corrupted or becoming rebellious outweighed the benefits of having them (various novels, like Valdor, Wolfsbane, and the short story Magisterium) Sure sounds like Valdor had the right ideas. Let's hope he comes back somehow to rectify all past mistakes.
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Jul 22, 2023 08:34
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The Emperor decided to sit the whole thing out during the Dark Age of Technology and contently sit on the sidelines doing what he loved the most: fishing. Unfortunately the Age of Strife happened and some techno-barbarian nuked his fishing pond, so the poor sob went ballistic.
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Jul 22, 2023 08:37
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We need a stardew/harvestmoon-like where you're big E running a little farm in the dark age. Got a cellar with a lab like in Graveyard Keeper, and a cadre of perpetuals you can befriend and... romance?
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Jul 22, 2023 09:11
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Angry Lobster posted:The Emperor decided to sit the whole thing out during the Dark Age of Technology and contently sit on the sidelines doing what he loved the most: fishing. Unfortunately the Age of Strife happened and some techno-barbarian nuked his fishing pond, so the poor sob went ballistic. Ah, so that is the reason as to why he so harshly punished the water theft.
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Jul 22, 2023 10:50
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FishFood posted:Nah, I don't like stories where the most powerful person is 100% right and the only things preventing them from succeeding are the flaws of others. It feels juvenile to me, not to mention it justifies some pretty ugly beliefs. It might work for "Pinky and the Brain", where the foibles of the much-put-upon genius are fodder for jokes, but as soon as you move it to epic space opera it starts to get icky. It's part of the same reason I hate Stackpole's Battletech books: when you center the narrative entirely around a single character who can't fail and can only be failed, it starts to read like a selfish teenager's myopic view of the world. I mean, that’s not really what I said. The Heresy is unquestionably, textually a result of the Emperor’s complete failure to understand people’s needs, most specifically their need for community and comradeship. A character literally says this in Horus Rising (about the lodges). The history of 30k is rife with examples of the Emperor planting the seeds of His own destruction by failing to understand what His sons needed at critical points. It’s not that He had a stupid plan; it’s that, in executing His plan, He made lots of stupid and avoidable mistakes in how He treated his sons and His people.
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Jul 22, 2023 10:58
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That explanation doesn’t work for me becuase the primarchs aren’t human and are completely un relatable (to me). Could anyone be a “good father “ or whatever to them. I get that ADB et Al used that as a motivation to explain the heresy in part
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Jul 22, 2023 12:45
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Primarchs are Super Human, they're demigods. Which means their flaws and passions are superhuman as well. They're grand, operatic embodiments of different ethea.
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Jul 22, 2023 14:13
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Yeah. The Horus Heresy is just space Greek myth. (And that’s why it’s good.)
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Jul 22, 2023 14:33
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bunnyofdoom posted:I know the newest Cain book was announced a couple months ago. Anyone know when it's supposed to release? When the warp deems it's time to do so. v  vThere's is a coming soon page on WarCo, but it's updated about as often as some xenos armies. A sign of how badly maintained that one is, it still list books that came out in may.
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Jul 22, 2023 15:09
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Warden posted:The Emperor when explaining prescience to his Custodes hints that his attempts to avoid what he had foreseen might have actually caused the things he had foreseen to happen, in a different way (Master of Mankind). Prophecies have a way of making themselves come true, etc. etc. This happens to Horus too when he's having his vision quest. They show him the real future and tell them only he can stop it from coming to pass, but whoops! Haha fooled you! Same for Lorgar, the whole reason he believes the Emperor is a god is because he's having visions of the future, he just doesn't have the timescale.
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Jul 22, 2023 15:12
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Demiurge4 posted:Prophecies have a way of making themselves come true, etc. etc. That was only the case at first for Lorgar. As he tells Erebus after Monarchia, he doesn't think the Emperor is an omniscient all-creator. He believed the big E was divine -enough-: immortal, transcendent, and with universe-spanning ambitions and plans he considered benevolent. There is even a moment, in his notes, where he is casting a tarot, that he looks down at his 'golden' hands and realizes that the same is true of himself. Basically, he had his basic desire to do good shaped by a dogmatic adopted father, then further altered by a messianic war, and then used by his actual father. Not sure he ever had a chance, other than, as others wrote here, the Emperor just coming clean to him about the chaos gods, the stakes, and the ultimate plan. Giving him a role as humanity's guardian against the perils of the Immaterium would likely have made him so loving happy.
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Jul 22, 2023 15:44
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