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Poor Joss Whedon. I mean, he's like the biggest feminist. I wonder whatever happened to him... EDIT: Oof, did not want this to be a snype
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Jul 22, 2023 07:03
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teagone posted:I mean, lets be real, the fandom sorta did bully WB into submission. And that's awesome. gently caress big corpos. gently caress studio execs. True! And that's why I don't think it should be acceptable to lump it in with things like QAnon and the incel movement, and it's almost certainly why the Hollywood machine loves drawing that equivalence, because WB had to eat humble pie.
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Jul 22, 2023 07:23
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teagone posted:It was during an episode when the characters host like an old retro gaming tournament at their restaurant and a bunch of nerds show up to compete, lol. Specifically, it's after the nerds get testy and start beating up the chef going out to tell them to simmer down. His cousin pulls a gun out, fires into the air, then tells them to shut the gently caress up and play the game and eat a sandwich and leave. He throws out some other random epithets too
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Jul 22, 2023 15:53
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I liked Barbie Movie and the Snyder joke was one of the few lines that really fell flat because it just felt instantly dated in a way none of the other jokes do.
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Jul 22, 2023 15:58
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Roth posted:What's the Toy Story stuff about? Armond White’s claim to fame is that he was the only reviewer listed on Rotten Tomatoes Dot Com to rank Toy Story 3 as ‘rotten’ (i.e. below 60%). Doing so denied the film a ‘perfect score’ and, in the hype surrounding the Disney-Pixar movie where WOODY AND BUZZ LIGHTYEAR (almost) DIE AT THE END, fans were infuriated and other outlets were reporting breathlessly on the bizarre deviation. As White himself later recounts it, it was simply a critique of consumerist ideology: “My heretical point, when writing about Toy Story 3, was that this insulting franchise delimited movies — particularly those targeted at children — as no longer expressive art but mere products synonymous with toys and the utility of toys: All reflection and imagination is left to the manufacturer. There’s nothing for the viewer to do but worship the formula.” Scorsese! Fascinatingly, White complains that his ‘anti-American’ review was attacked for being too ‘woke’ (though he would never use these terms on himself) - comparing the outrage to right-wing reactions against figures like Ilhan Omar and Colin Kaepernik. That’s (half-)sarcasm on his part, but still points to White’s appeal at the time: implicitly, not even evil radical libs like Omar would go so far as to dis Disney-Pixar at the height of its influence!
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Jul 22, 2023 16:00
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Armond White's never been worth listening to
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Jul 22, 2023 16:02
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The writers of the Bear making fun of the Snyder cut makes sense considering how much they look down on “Chicago culture” in their writing
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Jul 22, 2023 17:17
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RBA Starblade posted:Specifically, it's after the nerds get testy and start beating up the chef going out to tell them to simmer down. His cousin pulls a gun out, fires into the air, then tells them to shut the gently caress up and play the game and eat a sandwich and leave. He throws out some other random epithets too i have no idea if that actually works out as a scene but it sounds so broke brained when described lol
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Jul 22, 2023 17:39
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The nearest comparison that I think hits the mark is in And Just Like That when Carrie snarks, "A Marvel movie?" while guessing where to find single men. She could've just as well said "a superhero movie," the punchline isn't unique to Marvel, but a late-50s person is likely to view superhero movies that way, especially after the glut of the last few years. It's a pop culture reference that's broad enough for anyone to recognize without the audience having to know a specific movie and how it was perceived by pockets of the internet. Contrast with a Barbie character waking from a trance and calling out ZSJL specifically. Would the Donner Cut or Schumacher Cut be too specific/aged for the world of Barbie? And the punchline is "remember when people cared too much about a whole other movie that came out two years ago, what a bunch of morons huh." I know, writing this all out makes me a moron, I'll stop hitting myself.
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Jul 22, 2023 17:44
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Crespolini posted:i have no idea if that actually works out as a scene but it sounds so broke brained when described lol You're not really supposed to think the cousin is doing a good job and he didn't want the tournament to happen in the first place, the whole thing's supposed to be a trainwreck and so is he. It works fine
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Jul 22, 2023 17:51
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Darko posted:It's funny that there were certain posters here who were huge supporters of Armond White who just quietly forgot him. I'm still "friends" with him on FB just for the train wreck and he tries so, so hard to fit in with the Right Wing. It's sad. I used to stand Walter Chaw too. Rip to all the critic's whose brains got smoothed by the culture wars
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Jul 22, 2023 18:18
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I ultimately do agree with McCloud, it boils down to an eyeroll in the grand scheme of things. But the specificity of it is pretty galling, especially since this is one of the last films mostly produced under Toby Emmerich of the old regime. Emmerich's feeble "from Hell's heart I stab at thee." As I've said before, one of the reasons ZSJL is a giant sore spot for these producers/executives is because it's undeniably proof that they lost that pop culture war. Superhero movies have been what powers the Hollywood blockbuster machine for decades. 2008 is the flashpoint for the modern era starting with The Dark Knight and Iron Man starting the MCU. But I can't think of another major superhero movie that has the director's name in the title. It's not Justice League. It's Zack Snyder's Justice League. There would never have been demand for a Snyder Cut if it weren't for executive meddling prior to and after Autumn Snyder's tragedy. It would have just come out, succeeded or bombed, got it's two sequels, and Snyder would have said his peace and moved on to other projects. But all the petty fuckery behind the scenes only served to increase the director's popularity and as a result, made him a pop culture icon. And as a bonus, it ruined the career of rapist and confessed child murderer, Joss Whedon.
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Jul 22, 2023 18:20
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I’ve yet to see a Barbie, but The Snyder Cut Joke it’s employing isn’t a joke unless it’s actually ironic. Like, when The Bear tells The Snyder Cut Joke, you have list of various terrorist groups that culminates in “#releasethesnydercut”. That’s not a joke unless the point is the overreaction to a meme. One of those things is not like the others, and they know this, which is why they toss it in at the end - as a punchline. Otherwise, the dispiriting implication is that the person sees conspiracist fascism as merely a cultural threat and not a socioeconomic threat.
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Jul 22, 2023 18:26
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I laughed when the joke came up in The Bear. I thought it was funny. Show owns, btw.
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Jul 22, 2023 18:30
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Detective No. 27 posted:I ultimately do agree with McCloud, it boils down to an eyeroll in the grand scheme of things. But the specificity of it is pretty galling, especially since this is one of the last films mostly produced under Toby Emmerich of the old regime. Emmerich's feeble "from Hell's heart I stab at thee." I mean let's be real: ZSJL is a sore spot for a lot of fans too, it's not just top-down. Remember, until very recently, Whedon was hugely popular. And his style/tone of storytelling still is; see the Russos, Gunn et al And Snyder style is such an obvious rejection of all that
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Jul 22, 2023 18:35
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Detective No. 27 posted:And as a bonus, it ruined the career of rapist and confessed child murderer, Joss Whedon. wat
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Jul 22, 2023 18:36
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Blood Boils posted:I mean let's be real: ZSJL is a sore spot for a lot of fans too, it's not just top-down. Remember, until very recently, Whedon was hugely popular. And his style/tone of storytelling still is; see the Russos, Gunn et al Zack is incredibly powerful. He lives in their heads rent free.
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Jul 22, 2023 18:39
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I put the Russos a step above the Gunn/Whedon school. tonally, their stuff is similarly flat, but I never feel like they have the same fear of sincerity in their work. there's an earnestness and drama to those captain America/Avengers movies they made that isn't there in Whedon and Gunn's stuff, where every serious moment must be defused by a joke before the next scene, and every character speaks like the writer they're still guilty of it, but it doesn't feel like a compulsion/insecurity in the same way I'm also probably biased because they had Zack on that YT show and I found them charming
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Jul 22, 2023 18:41
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There's a story he told about being a kid and seeing another kid alone at lake or something then the kid drowned
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Jul 22, 2023 18:43
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Basically the Phil Collins song
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Jul 22, 2023 18:43
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https://twitter.com/discussingfilm/status/1682807135602614274?s=46&t=uiUehxbkNdNcN0PmfZ4Vaw If only there was a movie where this idea gets explored.
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Jul 22, 2023 18:49
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That's right, it's David Ayer's Suicide Squad.
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Jul 22, 2023 18:56
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Otherwise, the dispiriting implication is that the person sees conspiracist fascism as merely a cultural threat and not a socioeconomic threat. It would be in line with the rest of the movie, which is mostly concerned on the effects patriarchy has on pop culture and not the actual rights of women.
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Jul 22, 2023 19:06
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Pirate Jet posted:It would be in line with the rest of the movie, which is mostly concerned on the effects patriarchy has on pop culture and not the actual rights of women. Unfortunately seems to track with how it sounds like it's pretty much white feminism: the movie.
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Jul 22, 2023 19:26
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Mandrel posted:I put the Russos a step above the Gunn/Whedon school. tonally, their stuff is similarly flat, but I never feel like they have the same fear of sincerity in their work. there's an earnestness and drama to those captain America/Avengers movies they made that isn't there in Whedon and Gunn's stuff, where every serious moment must be defused by a joke before the next scene, and every character speaks like the writer You know, leaving the Russos aside, I don't think I agree that Gunn/Whedon's problem is lack of sincerity so much as incorrectly applied sincerity. In GOTG, for example, Starlord's mercenaries or even the fascistic Nova Corps are afforded moments of genuineness and pathos, but not the religious fanatic Ronan, who believes "too much" and too powerfully to be sympathetic; he doesn't fight for family but for a cause, which makes him persona non grata. Similarly, the child-killer Yondu is treated very sympathetically in Part II, while his brutal murder of the pirates (disgusting subalterns) is funny/cool. In Buffy, Buffy and her pals are given plenty of unalloyed moments of sincerity, pathos, and melodrama; the vicious mockery is saved for the "Vamps" who, according to the serial killer Rupert Giles, are "soulless" and can be exterminated out of hand; their obvious retention of former personalities, desires, and emotions is treated as a trick or deception.
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Jul 22, 2023 19:29
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Sadly, there's still a large contingent of people desperate to rehabilitate Whedon. That article that ties him to the tragic death of a kid drowning was meant to be a puff piece to be released shortly after ZSJL came out, probably because they believed that the audience would hate it. It's why he talks about cutting Ray Fishers scenes because Ray couldn't act and the scenes were boring, or how Gal "misunderstood him because her english is bad". It's a testament to what an absolute shithead Whedon is that he came across as unsympathetic as he did. Give it another 5 years and Whedon will come slithering back, and his old fans will talk about how he learned his lesson and deserves a second chance
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Jul 22, 2023 20:10
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Joss is their guy, and they're going to defend him to the death. It doesn't matter that his shows are all pretty much fetish fuel. However, the director who collaborates with his wife and made a movie about young girls fighting back against a system that entraps and exploits them, that guy is the embodiment of toxic masculinity.
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Jul 22, 2023 20:22
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Unfortunately seems to track with how it sounds like it's pretty much white feminism: the movie. It's a movie that bluntly says its own cartoon take on feminism only works in a cartoon world and that at best it can only cause incremental change once capital realizes it can make a little money off of it.
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Jul 22, 2023 20:35
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I will say, I don't understand how there hasn't been way more backlash for Dollhouse when that show has one of the most terrible storylines for a character that I when read it, I said "no, this can't be real" and then I watched it and yep, it was real in all it's awfulness. Horrid.
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Jul 22, 2023 20:37
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Probably because nobody has thought about dollhouse since the moment it ended
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Jul 22, 2023 21:08
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Part of me really wants to watch Dollhouse since it seems to share so much with Sucker Punch, but drat — do I really want to watch twenty-six 45 minute episodes just to satisfy that curiosity?
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Jul 22, 2023 21:30
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I think nobody cared much about the content of Dollhouse because they were cutting Whedon tremendous amounts of slack due to the cancellation of Firefly. That show was so god-drat overhyped and the circumstances around its cancellation seen as so unfair, Whedon could have done just about anything as his next project and people would have supported it out of spite.
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Jul 22, 2023 21:42
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Grendels Dad posted:I think nobody cared much about the content of Dollhouse because they were cutting Whedon tremendous amounts of slack due to the cancellation of Firefly. That show was so god-drat overhyped and the circumstances around its cancellation seen as so unfair, Whedon could have done just about anything as his next project and people would have supported it out of spite. I remember when I first saw Firefly after my friends hyped the poo poo out of it. It felt like such a trite show. Cowboys in space should be an interesting concept, but I felt no real connection to the characters who mostly seemed like a bunch of assholes. That being said, I tend not to go for shows or stories where all the characters are unlikeable.
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Jul 22, 2023 21:50
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I still can't believe how hyped Firefly was vs. how not into it overall I was. I still knew some people sort of recently that were still like demanding a second season or whatever.
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Jul 22, 2023 22:05
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Neo Rasa posted:I still can't believe how hyped Firefly was vs. how not into it overall I was. I still knew some people sort of recently that were still like demanding a second season or whatever. People still dying to see the “treat the whore like a lady” sequence
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Jul 22, 2023 22:10
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I guess I'll come out of the woodwork and say I liked Firefly ok, mostly for the setting, although I freely admit I didn't like the Whedonisms at the time and the behind-the-scenes stuff was horrible. I was never one of those Browncoat people (I thought that was weird) and the movie killed off a big chunk of the cast so I felt like it ended when it should have. But I did like it, I did think that showing China as a cultural influence in the future was cool (even though they didn't do a particularly good job, but it was 2002 after all) and I tolerated the kung fu waif and all the other skeezy stuff because, again, in 2002-2008 this stuff had not aged as badly. I genuinely thought Dollhouse was going to lean into the horrible morality of it. The fact that around episode 5(?) they revealed that there were multiple Dollhouses got me really excited about the narrative possibilities, but it ultimate went nowhere. Severance does exactly the kind of things I was hoping that Dollhouse was going to do, so I eventually got my wish.
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Jul 22, 2023 22:27
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Neo Rasa posted:I still can't believe how hyped Firefly was vs. how not into it overall I was. It’s interesting to think on a time when people were so thirsty for media that feels vaguely like more Star Wars that a low-budget space western starring kinda-Han Solo was hot poo poo. An episodic sci-fi western about a crew of space cowboys/pirates is still a solid premise. It’s just too bad a few dozen anime series did it already by 2002.
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Jul 22, 2023 22:40
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And that's cool, there is nothing wrong with liking something that others don't. That's a lesson it took me a long time to learn as an awful fanboy of things who teased and got teased about Fandom. It should go without saying that interests are subjective, but people love to tribalize over the stupidest poo poo. Firefly just never grabbed me. The Chinese influence on the future was a pretty good touch. I liked Morena Baccarin's haracter because I like her as an actress, but her whole interaction with Mal was pretty 
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Jul 22, 2023 22:42
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A True Jar Jar Fan posted:It's a movie that bluntly says its own cartoon take on feminism only works in a cartoon world and that at best it can only cause incremental change once capital realizes it can make a little money off of it. Having now seen it, the joke in Barbie is a bit more layered. The Barbie doll in question is being imagined by a designer at Mattel who imagines that men imagine that women should be ‘invested in’ the Snyder Cut. Also the the whole thing is ‘meta’, taking place inside a feature-length advertisement. Basically, though, the claim is that when a woman says she likes the Snyder Cut, she’s brainwashed into subservience and only saying it to impress men.
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Jul 22, 2023 23:53
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Apparently, Greta explained what was behind the joke: https://comicbook.com/dc/news/barbie-director-greta-gerwig-addresses-zack-snyder-cut-joke-warner-bros-exclusive/ quote:In the movie, Writer Barbie (Alexandria Shipp) is awoken after being brainwashed by Kens, and she describes it as follows: "It's like I've been in a dream where I was really invested in the Zack Snyder cut of Justice League." While this is a pretty innocent joke, there are already people upset about it on social media. It feels like the joke is poking fun at fans rather than Snyder himself, so ComicBook.com recently asked Barbie director Greta Gerwig about it. Turns out, she's not well-versed in the Snyder fandom. Lmao
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Jul 23, 2023 00:17
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